What do we really ‘know’

[Quintessence]

This is a question I have been reflecting on for a while now. Since birth, apart from natural instincts such as hunger, thirst and sleep we seem to all be born with a blank slate for those around us to write on. As life goes on we accumulate ‘information’ which we process. But hey, it’s all borrowed from outside sources. So throughout life what ‘knowledge’ do we actually have innately that is not from others?

So in all honesty how can any of us be knowledgeable if it is all borrowed from others? What knowledge do we really possess if any?

Do you ‘know’ anything that is not borrowed from others?

This isn't quite how I would frame things, but dependency on the greater-than-human world is very much acknowledged on some religious traditions, particularly those who lean indigenous or nature-based. So too is interdependency - things give and take. All are understood as partaking in the wisdom and knowledge of those around them and most of those persons are not human. "Borrowed" is a weird way to put it, I would use words more like "gifted" and "shared" instead. The trick is to pay attention and to listen.

 

[Spice]

What about self questioning? I see a lot of people questioning whether others have got it right bus have they themselves got it right? Is it possible for our own minds to deceive us?

Sure. And that is why questioning and observing should never end. "When I was child, I spoke as a child..."

To the dismay of many, I did not like the character of Harry Potter. I enjoyed the first 3 books very much, but by book #4 Harry was still thinking with the same mindset, not having learned a thing. Even in book #7 he thought he knew better than anyone else, more characters in the story died because of his teenage arrogance. Our experiences are meant to fuel our growth in mind and spirit.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So throughout life what ‘knowledge’ do we actually have innately that is not from others?

We? Are you asking me to speak for you as to what intrinsic knowledge you have? I can only speak for myself.

So in all honesty how can any of us be knowledgeable if it is all borrowed from others?

This is a loaded question. I never stipulated that it is all borrowed from others.

What knowledge do we really possess if any?

There's that 'w' word again.

Do you ‘know’ anything that is not borrowed from others?

Yes.

 

[McBell]

To be a little turbulent, how do you know a burn is able to experience the sensation of hurt? I've burned my wood table in times past. I can't recall questioning the burn on the table if it the burn was hurting anything. I never even asked it about the table.

I may be a child ...

Still at 53

Turbulent?

I am not a burn, so I do not know how a burn feels, if at all.

You asked if there is any knowledge that can be gained that is not borrowed.

I gave three examples of knowledge I have gained without being borrowed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many question religious and spiritual things. Those who say they aren’t real how do they know?

Everything we see and experience is completely reconcileable with no gods existing.

There are really only three possibilities that we need to consider:

1. The thing (the god, ghosts, whatever) exists and there's good justification to believe it exists.

2. The thing exists but there isn't good justification to believe that the thing exists.

3. The thing doesn't exist.

If we don't ever establish 1, then we're left with 2 and 3... which at some point becomes hair-splitting between "the thing doesn't exist" and "the thing may as well not exist for every practical purpose." At that point, I don't really care.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes I agree we do learn from experience and that it is not borrowed learning but unique to us In our individual situations. But don’t a lot of people just copy other peoples views in other words ‘go with the flow’ thinking there is safety in numbers? But isnt this dangerous as I could end up believing anything just because it is popular not necessarily because it is true.?

Sure, a good example of many people copying other's opinions, views and ways is 'fashion' in clothing, hairstyles and accessories.
And many people can be attracted to another for all kinds of reasons.
Advertising is a good example as well, and to protect purchasers as much as possible there are advertising standards agencies etc to safeguard us all.
If you are famous in some way or other then many people will follow you in all manner of ways, including your opinions or beliefs.

It's the big bad world, I guess.

 

[Spice]

Sure, a good example of many people copying other's opinions, views and ways is 'fashion' in clothing, hairstyles and accessories.
And many people can be attracted to another for all kinds of reasons.
Advertising is a good example as well, and to protect purchasers as much as possible there are advertising standards agencies etc to safeguard us all.
If you are famous in some way or other then many people will follow you in all manner of ways, including your opinions or beliefs.

It's the big bad world, I guess.

And remember when following the masses, sometimes the M is silent.

 

[oldbadger]

What about self questioning? I see a lot of people questioning whether others have got it right bus have they themselves got it right? Is it possible for our own minds to deceive us?

Sure.....
Some of us learn very quickly and others (like me) get to be fairly wise when it's all too late to make much difference.
I think we can train people in so many elementary ways but there's a point where they have to find out for themselves. It's scary for parents, isn't it!

 

[oldbadger]

And remember when following the masses, sometimes the M is silent.

Absolutely!
Several years ago in the UK a lot of young men wanted to wear loose jeans that hung down, showing their underpants. Eventually some of them were sewing their jeans half way down their underpants for the coolest look.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Everything we see and experience is completely reconcileable with no gods existing.

There are really only three possibilities that we need to consider:

1. The thing (the god, ghosts, whatever) exists and there's good justification to believe it exists.

2. The thing exists but there isn't good justification to believe that the thing exists.

3. The thing doesn't exist.

If we don't ever establish 1, then we're left with 2 and 3... which at some point becomes hair-splitting between "the thing doesn't exist" and "the thing may as well not exist for every practical purpose." At that point, I don't really care.

In the light of the OP, how do you know that they are the only real considerations?

I would offer that the list of possibilities can be greatly expanded, it actually may be a list that has never ending possibilities.

So how do you really know, that your list is the only 3 real considerations?

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In the light of the OP, how do you know that they are the only real considerations?

I would offer that the list of possibilities can be greatly expanded, it actually may be a list that has never ending possibilities.

So how do you really know, that your list is the only 3 real considerations?

Regards Tony

Well, there's technically a fourth option to make it a MECE set (we have justification to believe that a thing exists even though it doesn't).

With that, those are all the options:
- the thing either exists or it doesn't.
- belief in the thing is either justified or it isn't.

What other option do you see?

 

[Eli G]

This is a question I have been reflecting on for a while now. Since birth, apart from natural instincts such as hunger, thirst and sleep we seem to all be born with a blank slate for those around us to write on. As life goes on we accumulate ‘information’ which we process. But hey, it’s all borrowed from outside sources. So throughout life what ‘knowledge’ do we actually have innately that is not from others?

So in all honesty how can any of us be knowledgeable if it is all borrowed from others? What knowledge do we really possess if any?

Do you ‘know’ anything that is not borrowed from others?

We do know that we have a father and a mother who brought us to the world.
We do know that we depend on them until we can be independent, and after that we can have a positive relationship with them.
We do know that we need things to live, like food, air to breath, water, etc.
We do know that there are things that can hurt us, like the edge of the metal, high temperatures, electricity, etc.
We do know that we need social relationships to feel complete, because that gives us a sense of belonging, an identity.
We do know that we can't survive out of the earth or inside the water.
We do know that we need protection, coming from ourselves if it can be, or from others.
We do know that we need to be taught about many things we do not now, like how to behave among others.
We do know that we need the answers to many of the existentialist questions we ask ourselves...

We do know many things, and don't know many others so we need someone more wise than us to answer the things we don't know, and that is for sure.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, there's technically a fourth option to make it a MECE set (we have justification to believe that a thing exists even though it doesn't).

With that, those are all the options:
- the thing either exists or it doesn't.
- belief in the thing is either justified or it isn't.

What other option do you see?

I see the first thing is to drop MECE as a measure.

".. MECE thinking can be too limiting as mutual exclusiveness is not necessarily desirable. For instance, while it may be desirable to classify the answers to a question in a MECE framework so as to consider all of them exactly once, forcing the answers themselves to be MECE can be unnecessarily limiting..."

We must be open to greater possibilities and expanded considerations.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see the first thing is to drop MECE as a measure.

".. MECE thinking can be too limiting as mutual exclusiveness is not necessarily desirable. For instance, while it may be desirable to classify the answers to a question in a MECE framework so as to consider all of them exactly once, forcing the answers themselves to be MECE can be unnecessarily limiting..."

We must be open to greater possibilities and expanded considerations.

Regards Tony

What answer do you think is missing?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Everything we see and experience is completely reconcileable with no gods existing.

There are really only three possibilities that we need to consider:

1. The thing (the god, ghosts, whatever) exists and there's good justification to believe it exists.

2. The thing exists but there isn't good justification to believe that the thing exists.

3. The thing doesn't exist.

If we don't ever establish 1, then we're left with 2 and 3... which at some point becomes hair-splitting between "the thing doesn't exist" and "the thing may as well not exist for every practical purpose." At that point, I don't really care.

What answer do you think is missing?

Firstly this statement made, is already setting a mindset that may not be correct. "Everything we see and experience is completely reconcileable with no gods existing".

That must first be confirmed as a valid statement, before a List is made.

Regards Tony

 

[McBell]

Firstly this statement made, is already setting a mindset that may not be correct. "Everything we see and experience is completely reconcileable with no gods existing".

That must first be confirmed as a valid statement, before a List is made.

Regards Tony

It has been confirmed as a valid statement.

Your dislike of the fact is irrelevant.

 

[Eli G]

From my perspective, humanity and our planet wouldn't exist today without a Supreme Being who maintains the Universe through established laws, with His servants ensuring those laws are upheld, much like traffic officers prevent accidents where there are no signs. Moreover, the earth's resources haven't been depleted despite human exploitation and the harshness of natural processes that seem to destabilize it. Jesus mentioned that God causes the rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Imagine a planet where "natural" processes are ruled by unchecked forces... Do you believe life as we know it could thrive under such conditions?

On earth, we can predict when the sun will rise and set each day. We know which stars will appear in any part of the sky at any given time of the year and even how they looked thousands of years ago or will appear thousands of years in the future. We understand these things because we have learned the laws governing celestial motions. We also know these laws will remain unchanged, as they have since humanity's existence, continuing by the will of the One who created them. We didn't do anything about it, God did and does.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It has been confirmed as a valid statement.

Your dislike of the fact is irrelevant.

Thus the OP, do you really know that?

Regards Tony

 

[McBell]

Thus the OP, do you really know that?

Regards Tony

Yes, i do.

Why don't you?
Is it because you don't want it to be true?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why don't you?
Is it because you don't want it to be true?

Because I see the statement made is not true. Over and out.

Have a happy day, a wonderful 39 Deg C in our nexk of the woods Regards Tony