what do you consider the us soldier that get killed in Iraq?

[kateyes]

People, they are just people like you and I--and thousands of others:

http://www.youtube.com/jp.swf?video_id=ervaMPt4Ha0&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/ervaMPt4Ha0/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskI2Werk4TkCHYhHw87TVNsu&autoplay=1

 

[Reverend Chris]

Because we judge us.

I believe you are correct.

 

[Ringer]

I believe that the soldiers are to follow their superior's orders just like we as citizens of the United States are to follow government laws. That is why it is important that we pray for those who are in leadership positions, that they make the hard decisions of taking the moral path even when it is not the popular one. I do not believe that soldiers are condemned to Hell for their roll in war no matter how unpopular that war may be. But then again, I'm coming at it from a Christian bias.

Romans 13:1-4
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

 

[Pariah]

what do you consider the us soldier that get killed in Iraq?

A soldier.

a martyr that we should bow for him?

Individuals should choose for themselves who and/or what they bow to.

a criminal and killer that deserve what he got?

A soldier who kills is a killer, yes - but this definition would only serve to say the obvious. A criminal? Perhaps. It is possible to be a criminal and a soldier.

a victim of

deceivers that control his government?

No. The American army operates through a base of volunteers who choose to serve their country.

a greedy

opportunist that want to build his career or save some money without giving a shiit to iraqis lifes?

Perhaps, but I wasn't notified about soldiers and their necessity for compassion. Plus, many of them come from rural areas - their livelihood probably plays into their psyche a greater deal than overt greed or simply to "save some money".

a man with

great principles so that he want to spread democracy and freedom to repressed nations like iraqis?

Once again, perhaps.

Personality is not a unified trait among humans - we have a choice to be who we wish.

 

[MaddLlama]

and i say a dead soldier that participate and obey a military action that he know for sure being wrong or a sin, i believe he died for nothing plus he probably go to hell accompanied with the victims curses, and so lost the life and afterlife.

And, I'm sure plenty of Americans would say the same thing about Iraqi insurgents, so it doesn't make a bit of difference.

 

[love]

what do you consider the us soldier that get killed in Iraq?

a martyr that we should bow for him?

a criminal and killer that deserve what he got?

a victim of deceivers that control his government ?

a greedy opportunist that want to build his career or save some money without giving a shiit to iraqis lifes?

a man with great principles so that he want to spread democracy and freedom to repressed nations like iraqis?

Absolutely none of the above.
I find the wording of the post insulting.
We do not send our young soldiers as martyrs.
Never the less they are dead. Lost to their loved ones forever in this life.
What about the ones not killed who come home with no arms or legs.
Should their families grieve for them because they did not die for God thereby going straight to Paradise and avoiding that short trip to hell?

 

[love]

thier are hell and heaven, based on the person acts in this life (in fact on allah mercy), he/she will go to heaven or hell (or hell for a while and then to heaven)

I don't know about you sin bad but I hate it when I spill hot coffee on myself.
There is an older song that is popular in the U.S., something about a big ol' jet aeroliner take me to my home and you got to go to hell before you get to heaven.
It wasn't taken literally that you should take a big jet airplane and take the shortcut to heaven.
I tell you, sins can mount up on us mere humans. And that time in hell doesn't sound that appealing to me.
I did things from an early age that I knew was wrong and by the time I was 12 I thought I was unredeemable.
I am older now and I know the redeeming power of Christ.
I try not to make the same mistakes. I think every day on earth is precious.
No "flames of glory" for me. I am only 55 and the dreams of all those virgins has lost some of it's appeal to me. I can only imagine after a couple of thousand years.

 

[greatcalgarian]

We always have choice. We cannot abdicate complete, individual moral responsibility for our actions -- nor their consequences.
A Captain's order trumps a sergeants; a colonel's a Captain's. Likewise, one's religion or personal moral code trumps even a General's, in God's eyes.

In agreeing to kill and destroy whoever and whatever he is instructed to, a soldier abdicates his moral agency and thereby relinquishes his place in Heaven.
In agreeing to violate any and all Laws of God, on the simple instructions of a fellow sinner, a soldier becomes a willing tool of the political bureaucracy -- and detested of God.
How can we condemn those who headed the Jews into the ovens of Auschwitz and still consider following human orders honorable?

The Christian position is that only Christ can take the the consequences of one's actions unto himself. Sargent's and captains cannot.

If a soldier violates the biblical injunction not to kill, fails to love his enemies, return good for ill, turn the other cheek and maintain meekness he is certainly no Christian -- and will reap the wages of his sin.

When some one join the army, if the correct reason is to defend his nation, then he should go to heaven, so long as he obeyed the rule lay down for him. A soldier is not to ask question, but to execute a job assigned to him, be it to kill one, ten, hundred, or thousand of people. Thus the pilots who dropped the two A-bombs have no moral responsibility, but the person who commanded the execution (in this case, the President of USA) is responsible.

The 19 Arabs that flew into buildings etc should go to heaven, but the hand behind which directed the 19 Arab will go to hell. So the thousands of soldiers killing civilians etc in Iraq have not done anything wrong, they are just executing order to defend their nation (as defined by Bush, to fight the terrorists that threaten American liberty etc etc). But the commanders that started to war will answer to God.

Now if a soldier personal opinion is that the Iraq war is wrong, it has nothing to do with defending America, he can do either of the following:
(1) leave the army if he is not under any contract
(2) refuse to go to that war, and go to jail. God will definitely welcome him with open arm in heaven.

 

[love]

When some one join the army, if the correct reason is to defend his nation, then he should go to heaven, so long as he obeyed the rule lay down for him. A soldier is not to ask question, but to execute a job assigned to him, be it to kill one, ten, hundred, or thousand of people. Thus the pilots who dropped the two A-bombs have no moral responsibility, but the person who commanded the execution (in this case, the President of USA) is responsible.

The 19 Arabs that flew into buildings etc should go to heaven, but the hand behind which directed the 19 Arab will go to hell. So the thousands of soldiers killing civilians etc in Iraq have not done anything wrong, they are just executing order to defend their nation (as defined by Bush, to fight the terrorists that threaten American liberty etc etc). But the commanders that started to war will answer to God.

Now if a soldier personal opinion is that the Iraq war is wrong, it has nothing to do with defending America, he can do either of the following:
(1) leave the army if he is not under any contract
(2) refuse to go to that war, and go to jail. God will definitely welcome him with open arm in heaven.

The 19 Arabs that flew into buildings etc should go to heaven, but the hand behind which directed the 19 Arab will go to hell. So the thousands of soldiers killing civilians etc in Iraq have not done anything wrong, they are just executing order to defend their nation (as defined by Bush, to fight the terrorists that threaten American liberty etc etc). But the commanders that started to war will answer to God.

While visions of virgins danced in their head.
Yea God was real proud of them.
For you people whose English is their second language this is called sarcasm. Look it up.

 

[greatcalgarian]

While visions of virgins danced in their head.
Yea God was real proud of them.
For you people whose English is their second language this is called sarcasm. Look it up.

Muslims were said to have nothing else in mind except virgins dancing when they go to heaven.

Christians on the other hand, have very holy vision of the heaven, being next to God, and will sing praise hynms day in and day out, and will do nothing else, and no other enjoyment.

Poor atheist just vaporised into nothing. Perhaps being roasted everyday at 1200 degree C.

 

[Pariah]

Poor atheist just vaporised into nothing. Perhaps being roasted everyday at 1200 degree C.

That's not hot enough.

 

[greatcalgarian]

That's not hot enough.

I know that. But many people do not know the temperature reached in the Twin Tower on 9/11.

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

When some one join the army, if the correct reason is to defend his nation, then he should go to heaven, so long as he obeyed the rule lay down for him. A soldier is not to ask question, but to execute a job assigned to him, be it to kill one, ten, hundred, or thousand of people. Thus the pilots who dropped the two A-bombs have no moral responsibility, but the person who commanded the execution (in this case, the President of USA) is responsible.

Actually you can be equally court martialled equally for what you do. We expect our soliders to know right from wrong. "I was following orders" is no longer a defense as we saw in Nurembourg.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Actually you can be equally court martialled equally for what you do. We expect our soliders to know right from wrong. "I was following orders" is no longer a defense as we saw in Nurembourg.

I disagreed. You only follow your superior order. Right or wrong is not for you to determine.

If that rule is not adhered to, you cannot run an army at all.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Just another poor soul that did the best he/she could (or not) in a totally F***'d up world. sad sad sacrifice, at the hands of insanity.

Ditto. We do the best we can. We're both in control and out of it. While I may condemn someone for an atrocity I feel is wrong, I may also be condemned. We're all in this together.

 

[Smoke]

I believe that the soldiers are to follow their superior's orders just like we as citizens of the United States are to follow government laws. That is why it is important that we pray for those who are in leadership positions, that they make the hard decisions of taking the moral path even when it is not the popular one. I do not believe that soldiers are condemned to Hell for their roll in war no matter how unpopular that war may be. But then again, I'm coming at it from a Christian bias.

Romans 13:1-4
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Bearing in mind that the author of those words was executed by the governing authorities, should we conclude that his words are not true in every case, or that he was one who practiced evil?

A soldier who obeys whatever orders he's given, no matter what, may be a good soldier, and a citizen who obeys his government no matter what may be a good citizen. But neither is a good man. The soldier and the citizen alike still bear the moral responsibility for their own actions.

As for the OP: I consider them dead -- victims of the greed, violence, religions, ideologies, foolishness and arrogance of others. Whether they committed good or evil acts before they died surely varies from person to person, and it would be rash to generalize.

 

[capslockf9]

I don't care as long as I can still buy hamburgers for a dollar.
Our wanton consumption requires a military.
We sacrifice children for cheap gasoline. We pilage nature. And we are poisoning ourselve, yet we can't stop.
Keep those oil pipelines open and good work. So I guess they are martyrs to my way of life.

 

[greatcalgarian]

A soldier who obeys whatever orders he's given, no matter what, may be a good soldier, and a citizen who obeys his government no matter what may be a good citizen. But neither is a good man. The soldier and the citizen alike still bear the moral responsibility for their own actions.

In that case, it is not possible for a soldier to be a good soldier and a good man at the same time. To be a good soldier, he has to obey the order (both good and bad included). To be a good man, he has to disobey a 'bad' order. When he disobeyed a 'bad' order, then he will be disciplined, including sack from the army and even going to jail. And in most cases, being a simple soldier, the man was not trained to take up any other job or carrier, so what do you expect him to do?

 

[Smoke]

In that case, it is not possible for a soldier to be a good soldier and a good man at the same time. To be a good soldier, he has to obey the order (both good and bad included). To be a good man, he has to disobey a 'bad' order. When he disobeyed a 'bad' order, then he will be disciplined, including sack from the army and even going to jail. And in most cases, being a simple soldier, the man was not trained to take up any other job or carrier, so what do you expect him to do?

A soldier or a citizen who follows all orders may be a "good" soldier or citizen in the sense of being dutiful or obedient, but a better soldier or citizen is one who refuses immoral orders and behaves ethically whether those in authority want him to or not. To be a soldier or a citizen doesn't relieve one of moral accountability, and a man serves his country better by resisting evil. Who better served Germany? Those who slaughtered Jews, or those who smuggled Jews to freedom?

 

[greatcalgarian]

A soldier or a citizen who follows all orders may be a "good" soldier or citizen in the sense of being dutiful or obedient, but a better soldier or citizen is one who refuses immoral orders and behaves ethically whether those in authority want him to or not. To be a soldier or a citizen doesn't relieve one of moral accountability, and a man serves his country better by resisting evil. Who better served Germany? Those who slaughtered Jews, or those who smuggled Jews to freedom?

I understand what you are saying. However, under many circumstances, the low ranking soldiers are not able to go against the order of the superior even they are aware that the order is morally incorrect. So either they disobey the order and answer to court marshall or simply carry out the order against their own moral understanding. In most cases, they have no choice, because to disobey means being put to jail and discharged from the army, become jobless, and also likely to have no support from the society. So the easier way out, is just to follow the order, and then refuse to face at the moral issue.

Regarding the Germany soldiers, we now have the Nazi being defeated, and hence we can easily say who is serving the evil. If Nazi has won and the alliance defeated, the world will now be singing a different tune, and nobody will be defending those millions of Jews being killed. Winners take all, and history always shows that. Even history may not record the actual truth, and is a written account of the victors, who have at their will to paint everything bad about the enemies they have defeated.