What do you feel is wrong with atheism?

[robtex]

Post 500.

I win!

i think nobody is winning on this thread. We are on post 500 and there are less than 5 posts that have anything to do with op!

 

[gnomon]

i think nobody is winning on this thread. We are on post 500 and there are less than 5 posts that have anything to do with op!

Then we should play Calvinball instead.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

i think nobody is winning on this thread. We are on post 500 and there are less than 5 posts that have anything to do with op!

I'll plead guilty to my part in that, Robtex.

 

[L0gic]

:no: It goes like this: there are absolutely no absolutes.

This claim is nonsense. It's an absolute making an absolute claim that there are no absolutes.

Also, GadFly, you have made many claims and statements, some sensible, some not so sensible. Here is a sensible one (from post # 477):

Would you please leave the crap in the out house and debate the issues without the stink. That is not intellectual. When you greet another person, be nice. If you truly want to play intellectual, be nice.

This is a very reasonable request and claim, as debates require objectivity and not providing any little "short attacks". However, there is a problem. If one is to make a request, it is best that one follows through with it. In terms of your request, it would involve being nice to others. Consider for example post #484:

I can not say anything about Scott since we have never met or engaged. But you The Voice of Reason I have never received a post that was not rude and illogical in some way. You have yet to challenge any of my ideas that I am aware. Are you addicted to an out house philosophical debate where we sling stuff at each other? Play like you were in a fantasy world of gentlemen and be nice.
GadFly

There is a further problem. We have strayed off-topc (not only to you but also to others). Let us try to get back onto topic and leave any quarrels to PMs.

 

[gnostic]

I'm not blind to the fact that religion often acts unwisely, even irreligiously, but it acts. "After all, it is what one believes rather than what one knows that determines conduct and dominates personal performances. Purely factual knowledge exerts very little influence upon the average man unless it becomes emotionally activated [which is why Communism is sometimes called a religion]. But the activation of religion is superemotional, unifying the entire human experience on transcendent levels through contact with, and release of, spiritual energies in the mortal life." Nevertheless, religion often gets the blame even when the motives are clearly secular. "Aberrations of religious conviction have led to bloody persecutions, but always and ever religion does something; it is dynamic!" (UB)

Unless it's emotionally activated, atheism tends to react. If RF is anything to go by, those atheists who claim to be "spiritual" mistake sentiment for spiritual or think of it as a way to escape the vicissitudes of life. But don't get me wrong. As a philosophy of life, atheistic Buddhism is in many respects the best the world has to offer, but its great weakness is that it does not produce a dynamic religion of social service nor does it offer hope for personality survival (except for a vague functional continuity). But "Those who believe this philosophy live better lives than many who do not." (UB)

All people react, not just atheists or agnostics. And some Christians refused to grow, preferring to remain ignorant by sticking to the bible, as if the bible is the only thing they need to learn in life.

For instance. Some people stick to the Creation ideal, completely ignoring scientific evidences that the universe is older than 6000 years (the supposed time of the Creation, if you do the maths), our solar system is older than 6000 years, our earth is older than 6000 years, and fossils of modern man existed before 6000 years ago.

And some Christians haven't still outgrown book burning stage. Take the Harry Potter's series in both books and films was at the height of its popularity. Even Australia, some of these idiots burned the HP books, because of hysterics about the books being written by the Devil, and that witches are devil's worshippers and all that craps.

If that's not reactive than what is it? Do you call that growing intellectually and emotionally mature?

I can tell you one thing. I have met witches, and they don't worship Satan, because they don't believe in the Devil anymore than I do. They are one of the most decent and compassionate people that I ever met. They don't preach to me about their crafts, but they are willing to explain any question sensibly and logically, without being forceful and judgement if you don't agree with their practices. Witches are not religious, because their witchcraft is exactly that, a craft or skill learned, just as a carpenter apprentice learning the trade of carpentry. People often confused witches with Wiccans.

I have heard Christians telling me I will go to hell and burned for eternity; some can't resist withholding judgement, one of them was as recent as last years, because he didn't like me being agnostic and he didn't like my website - Dark Mirrors of Heaven.

 

[GadFly]

The original post of this thread was asking "what do you think is wrong with atheism". Now, with that as a starting point, it should have been VERY obvious that you were going to be commenting on the belief system that many of the members of this forum embrace.

If there is a problem between you and me, it can be resolved, apologies given and friendly relationships achieved but you must not fight other people's battles. There are atheist on this forum who respond well to reasoning but some of the ones you have taken up with have thrown you under the bus to prompt you to attack the GadFly. These have an agenda for the GadFly. Rolling Stone and I are close in our belief systems but there is no agreement between us. He speaks for himself. If you are dissatisfied with Rolling Stone, talk to him about that but GadFly has not ganged up with anybody except for Christ.

Immediately, you might have considered being overly concsious of that fact, but instead, you chose to be confrontational, by speaking of things like "atheist logic". When several people tried to discuss the fallacies in your points, you both became defensive, and instantly began insulting atheists. Both of you included me in your attacks, even though I clearly state that I am an agnostic.

I know that you think this is true but you are not privileged to the whole picture. I call challenging points, challenging the issue. No atheist to date has challenged my use of the term atheistic logic. They deny it exist. They beg me not to use it. I have defined it several times throughout the threads and atheist hate it; but challenge it, no that has not happened. There is a search engine on the forum; I challenge you to do a search on the term and than report back to me with a better idea of what is going on with your buddies who have thrown you under the train.

You (and Rolling Stone) have been told more than a few times that you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting the differences between agnosticism and atheism, as well as the fact that not all atheists see all issues the same. In spite of this, you both insist on continuing to pontificate on issues on which you have clearly demonstrated substantial (if not total) ignorance.

You can not be talking about me with an honest reflection and review of the facts. It is just not there. Check it out and send me a pm on this.

If you want me to "be nice" then learn to listen. If you want me to be nice, then take the time to understand what it means when you are told that you are "painting with a broad brush", and why it offends people.

Lastly, if you want me to be nice, try to keep from lumping me into belief systems because you don't understand the differences between them.

Everybody has feelings. You have not been objective with me. I have never addressed a post to you until I was referred to in one of your post. I don't recall addressing a post to an agnostic at any time but that could be possible and I did not know the person was an agnostic. I am not really familiar enough with agnostic belief system to make remarks about agnostics except in the area that they might refute a believers system of belief.

I do not know how true it is of agnostics, but atheist are often the victims of their own lies in that they lie so much that they can not recognize a lie from truth in which they do not belief. Atheist believe in relativity, not truth. The truth is that atheist do not know what they believe. Their premises change so often. they have lost the meaning of what a premise is. Now, Voice of Reason, if you do not believe in absolute truth, then your belief system is fair game in this debate but the GadFly is a gange of one and I will take the argument on myself
God bless
GadFly

 

[Sententia]

Everybody has feelings. You have not been objective with me. I have never addressed a post to you until I was referred to in one of your post. I don't recall addressing a post to an agnostic at any time but that could be possible and I did not know the person was an agnostic. I am not really familiar enough with agnostic belief system to make remarks about agnostics except in the area that they might refute a believers system of belief.

I do not know how true it is of agnostics, but atheist are often the victims of their own lies in that they lie so much that they can not recognize a lie from truth in which they do not belief. Atheist believe in relativity, not truth. The truth is that atheist do not know what they believe. Their premises change so often. they have lost the meaning of what a premise is. Now, Voice of Reason, if you do not believe in absolute truth, then your belief system is fair game in this debate but the GadFly is a gange of one and I will take the argument on myself
God bless
GadFly

Sounds like someone is frustrated. I feel for you. God will sort us all out in the end.

However saying an atheist does not believe in truth will annoy me and many others. Fiction. Fantasy. Like God, Heaven and Santa Claus... God knows when your naughty and nice and generalizing that all atheist dont believe in truth is not just wrong its criminal.

Perhaps you should clarify your argument against atheists... Not believing in a god is in fact accepting truth not denying... a god mind you... The question of creatures who we could consider godly is never denied but nor is that your god... the christian god or any god by name on this planet since man became conscious.

I wonder if we were bipeds before or after we were conscious...

Nonetheless dont let me get sidetracked too much. You are wrong on this point and you should acknowledge that. There may be some atheist that dont believe in truth but saying all is wrong.

 

[Yerda]

i think nobody is winning on this thread. We are on post 500 and there are less than 5 posts that have anything to do with op!

Well, I'll repeat my objection. Atheism is unimportant. It's not something to live your life by. Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Well, I'll repeat my objection. Atheism is unimportant. It's not something to live your life by. Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning.

Frubals. A masterful post!

 

[Papersock]

Well, I'll repeat my objection. Atheism is unimportant. It's not something to live your life by. Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning.

Actually, I agree.

I don't live my life by atheism since atheism is just a lack of belief. Its a relatively small part of my life.
And I have to find my own purposefulness and meaning.

 

[Sententia]

Actually, I agree.

I don't live my life by atheism since atheism is just a lack of belief. Its a relatively small part of my life.
And I have to find my own purposefulness and meaning.

Yep... whether your atheist or theist is argubly a question of mere genetics and upbringing and not something really to debate.

I mean yes for some on both sides it was environment that dictated the path and maybe an argument of truth is warranted and even if not for them then maybe future generations. I just cant see my great, great, great, great grandkids coming to relgious forums to see *** I had to say on the issue.

hehe.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Actually, I agree.

I don't live my life by atheism since atheism is just a lack of belief. Its a relatively small part of my life.
And I have to find my own purposefulness and meaning.

Yes, but to what end? The grave and no hope of personality survival makes it all seem rather empty. You can deny the logical conclusion, the meaninglessness, by putting it out of your mind and finding your own purposefulness and meaning, but that's like putting a bandage on a cancer and hoping it will go away.

Jaiket also said, "Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning." He is right.

Jaiket wins! He had the final word on this matter.

 

[gnostic]

Yes, but to what end? The grave and no hope of personality survival makes it all seem rather empty.

I'm agnostic. Even if there's afterlife, I don't want eternal life. I don't want immortality. They all have no appeals to me.

Beside all that, eternal life in heaven sounds rather tedious.

What can you do there, saying that you get there?

You don't know.

Will you be with love ones, like you were on earth?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Can you discover new things? Can you still learn something new?

Eternal life is meaningless, if it is not worth it. Especially if life have no new mystery, what is the point of living forever. Life should have more meaning than simply just worshipping God, because this would not be life at all. It sounds more like slavery.

 

[Papersock]

Jaiket also said, "Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning." He is right.

However, that doesn't make it true. It may bring a sense of purpose and meaning for some people, but it would not for me because I cannot believe it is true.

Whether something makes me happy or makes life more meaningful has no bearing on how likely it is to be true.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, but to what end? The grave and no hope of personality survival makes it all seem rather empty. You can deny the logical conclusion, the meaninglessness, by putting it out of your mind and finding your own purposefulness and meaning, but that's like putting a bandage on a cancer and hoping it will go away.

Jaiket also said, "Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning." He is right.

Jaiket wins! He had the final word on this matter.

No, the grave and no hope of personality survival only make this life that much more important and precious. That doesn't mean this life is meaningless, it just doesn't have the same meaning as it does for theists.

As Jaiket said, theism gives people's lives meaning. That means that it is an arbitrary meaning assigned by their beliefs. So, since atheism itself doesn't give us that meaning, we have to find it elsewhere. Either way, theists and atheists make up their own meaning for life, they just make up different meanings. When you say "by putting it out of your mind and finding your own purposefulness and meaning", that's exactly what theists do, they just give it a different meaning. The difference is that most atheists know that they are "only putting a bandage on their cancer", whereas most theists don't acknowledge that.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

However, that doesn't make it true. It may bring a sense of purpose and meaning for some people, but it would not for me because I cannot believe it is true.

Whether something makes me happy or makes life more meaningful has no bearing on how likely it is to be true.

What brand of bandage do you favor?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

No, the grave and no hope of personality survival only make this life that much more important and precious. That doesn't mean this life is meaningless, it just doesn't have the same meaning as it does for theists.

As Jaiket said, theism gives people's lives meaning. That means that it is an arbitrary meaning assigned by their beliefs. So, since atheism itself doesn't give us that meaning, we have to find it elsewhere. Either way, theists and atheists make up their own meaning for life, they just make up different meanings. When you say "by putting it out of your mind and finding your own purposefulness and meaning", that's exactly what theists do, they just give it a different meaning. The difference is that most atheists know that they are "only putting a bandage on their cancer", whereas most theists don't acknowledge that.

Same question: what brand of bandage do you favor? Your denial of the qualitative/experientail difference is like denying the difference between the life of a flower and the life of a stone.

Perhaps the thing most wrong with atheism is its constant state of denial.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Perhaps the thing most wrong with atheism is its constant state of denial.

No it isn't!!!!!



...

....Ooo...

 

[Willamena]

Well, I'll repeat my objection. Atheism is unimportant. It's not something to live your life by. Theism seems to me to carry the immediate advantage of purposefulness and meaning.

But atheism isn't something a person "lives their life by," which makes your statements both true, false and nonsensical (well done! very Discordian). You'd perhaps do better to think of atheism as a statement that one is not going to "live their life" by theism. Whatever else they do "live their life" by is variable.

 

[Magic Man]

Same question: what brand of bandage do you favor? Your denial of the qualitative/experientail difference is like denying the difference between the life of a flower and the life of a stone.

Perhaps the thing most wrong with atheism is its constant state of denial.

I don't have a favorite brand. Maybe you didn't actually read the post. I said that theists do the same thing. They find their meaning for life in beliefs through theism. Atheists find their meaning elsewhere. Both give their lives meanings that aren't intrinsic to them. Meaning only exists because we do. Animals' lives have no meaning. Their only purpose is to reproduce, which could be said of us too, since we are also animals.