What do you think about other religions?

[CG Didymus]

Go for it Baha'is... What is your interpretation of Matthew 24?

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”​

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The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age​

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”​

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4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, [b]pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.​

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9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

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The Great Tribulation​

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.​

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23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.​

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26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.​

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The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

 

[viole]

I believe I respect logic up to a point. I believe God knows everything so His word is the final word.

the first statement is necessary to assert the second.

ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe I respect logic up to a point. I believe God knows everything so His word is the final word.

The thing about logic is that if you only respect it "up to a point," then you don't respect it at all.

 

[nPeace]

So you actually expect JW proselytizing to win converts?

No, because JWs do not proselytize, and neither do their convert.
JWs preach and teach... no force applied. They make disciples of people who accept the message, and turn around from their former course - that is, convert. That's the person's choice, and action. They are not forced.

From the outside, it seems like more of a tactic to encourage a feeling of divisiveness toward society, and by extension, loyalty to the group. IOW, the high failure rate seems to me like a design feature, not a bug.

Depends on which lens you are looking through.
I have heard from the outside, and quite a great deal of people are happy to see and hear JWs.
Their absence from being a part of the group may fool people into thinking otherwise, but fear is a serious hindrance. Many people don't like to be unpopular, and many fear unkindness, so the thought of being viewed negatively or treated unkindly, scares them.

So many have said, I could never do what you JWs do, yet they are doing it.
They are many who admire what we do, commend us for doing it, thank us for doing it... because it helps, and express their fear, but the potential is largely present.

JWs number 8.7 million, and the numbers that join them each year, are by the thousands.
So many are happy to see the Witnesses are back to the in-person witnessing.
More persons are having Bible studies.
More are attending the Memorial.
More will join.

What we do not expect, is for the world to join us. This is unrealistic.
We expect that honest hearted ones who don't want to be part of this world will join us. This is realistic.

I can kinda understand some ways how a believer might accept proselytizing with such a bad success rate... for instance, I've heard some Christians say that the purpose of their proselytizing is to "convict" the unfaithful: preaching to them makes their future punishment justified.

Well I can certainly understand your mistaken view.
When we don't know something it often leads to all kinds of inaccurate conclusions.
Success is not measured by how many people respond. Noah's success was not zero, because no one listened.
That's not how success is measured in this case.
Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents+ than over 99 righteous ones who have no need of repentance.

I can't wrap my head around the idea of someone sincerely believing that JW-style proselytizing is supposed to be an effective conversion tool, though.

Yes, I can see why. You have the wrong perspective - the wrong idea to start with, of what's really taking place.

 

[nPeace]

Of course, the Baha'i claim is that their prophet fulfilled all the prophecies concerning the Messiah. Which ones do you believe were not fulfilled by him?

All of them actually.
The thing is, Bahais will argue strongly against anything presented, and claim that Christians just have an interpretation... which is wrong, but theirs is right.

One text that shows Jesus has no successor, is Hebrews 7:22-25.
According to the angel Gabriel, "Jehovah God will give [Jesus] the throne of David his father, and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.” (Luke 1:32, 33).
This ties in with Daniel 7:13, 14, which Bahais try to apply to their prophet.

I keep bringing up that the tribulation happens before the second coming of Jesus. And when Jesus returns, he defeats the evil kings and rulers.

That is according to scripture. Matthew 24:22

I asked them about verses that say the Messiah will rule from Zion/Jerusalem. Their prophet never went to Jerusalem.

Their prophet also never was seen ascending to heaven.
Was Bahaullah seen after his death? Or was his death like any other ordinary man?
Christ was seen by upward to 500 people, after his death.

There is also the false prophet and anti-christ prophecies. Do you any comments on these and other prophecies that were supposed to happen but didn't?

Perhaps you have similar views to most people, about the antichrist.... I don't know. However, there is no one antichrist.
Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist* is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18
Antichrists have been around since the late first century, and there are more today than there were back then.
The same is true of false prophets. 1 John 4:1... for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Why do you think prophecies were supposed to happen though? Are you of the view that things are supposed to take place by our timetable, rather than God's?

 

[CG Didymus]

Their prophet also never was seen ascending to heaven.
Was Bahaullah seen after his death? Or was his death like any other ordinary man?
Christ was seen by upward to 500 people, after his death.

I really don't understand why Baha'is accept the virgin birth but reject the resurrection.

Why do you think prophecies were supposed to happen though? Are you of the view that things are supposed to take place by our timetable, rather than God's?

I learned about the Bible from born-again/fundy Christians with a little bit of Charismatic Christian influence. I don't necessarily believe it. And I feel the same way about the Baha'i Faith... I don't necessarily believe it... just because they tell me it's true and because their prophet says it's true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I really don't understand why Baha'is accept the virgin birth but reject the resurrection.

We have told you why, more than once. It is because the Baha'i Writings uphold the virgin birth but reject the bodily resurrection.

 

[nPeace]

I learned about the Bible from born-again/fundy Christians with a little bit of Charismatic Christian influence. I don't necessarily believe it. And I feel the same way about the Baha'i Faith... I don't necessarily believe it... just because they tell me it's true and because their prophet says it's true.

I get that, but you are claiming things about the Bible, so I am asking why you you think those claims are valid.
For example, if you ask, why a prophecy was not fulfilled when it was supposed to, you are suggesting that there are failed prophecies, or only claimed prophecies, so I am asking you, why you believe the prophecy was to be fulfilled when you think it should have.

 

[Muffled]

But only one man fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ, and that was Baha'u'llah.

Thief in the Night by William Sears

I believe one must fantasize a great deal to believe that. It also takes a great deal of ignoring what the Bible says let alone the Holy Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

So you actually expect JW proselytizing to win converts?

From the outside, it seems like more of a tactic to encourage a feeling of divisiveness toward society, and by extension, loyalty to the group. IOW, the high failure rate seems to me like a design feature, not a bug.

I can kinda understand some ways how a believer might accept proselytizing with such a bad success rate... for instance, I've heard some Christians say that the purpose of their proselytizing is to "convict" the unfaithful: preaching to them makes their future punishment justified.

I can't wrap my head around the idea of someone sincerely believing that JW-style proselytizing is supposed to be an effective conversion tool, though.

I believe one should remember that there is one born every minute.

 

[Muffled]

We have told you why, more than once. It is because the Baha'i Writings uphold the virgin birth but reject the bodily resurrection.

I believe that goes to show what the writings are worth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe one must fantasize a great deal to believe that. It also takes a great deal of ignoring what the Bible says let alone the Holy Spirit.

It takes a great deal of reading what the Bible says to know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that goes to show what the writings are worth.

You are free to believe anything you want to because you have free will.

 

[Boris Norris]

I find them all incredibly fascinating.

I find every one of them as ridulous as the rest.
Not one has any proof of some supernatural dictator and should be treated as the delusion they are.

 

[Orbit]

No, because JWs do not proselytize, and neither do their convert.
JWs preach and teach... no force applied. They make disciples of people who accept the message, and turn around from their former course - that is, convert. That's the person's choice, and action. They are not forced.


Depends on which lens you are looking through.
I have heard from the outside, and quite a great deal of people are happy to see and hear JWs.
Their absence from being a part of the group may fool people into thinking otherwise, but fear is a serious hindrance. Many people don't like to be unpopular, and many fear unkindness, so the thought of being viewed negatively or treated unkindly, scares them.

So many have said, I could never do what you JWs do, yet they are doing it.
They are many who admire what we do, commend us for doing it, thank us for doing it... because it helps, and express their fear, but the potential is largely present.

JWs number 8.7 million, and the numbers that join them each year, are by the thousands.
So many are happy to see the Witnesses are back to the in-person witnessing.
More persons are having Bible studies.
More are attending the Memorial.
More will join.

What we do not expect, is for the world to join us. This is unrealistic.
We expect that honest hearted ones who don't want to be part of this world will join us. This is realistic.


Well I can certainly understand your mistaken view.
When we don't know something it often leads to all kinds of inaccurate conclusions.
Success is not measured by how many people respond. Noah's success was not zero, because no one listened.
That's not how success is measured in this case.
Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents+ than over 99 righteous ones who have no need of repentance.


Yes, I can see why. You have the wrong perspective - the wrong idea to start with, of what's really taking place.

I am just going to reply to your first claim, "JWs do not proselytize" which is patently false. Explain to me why I get unsolicited handwritten letters from JWs (3 times now) trying to proselytize. JWs knock on my door, proselytizing. Your claim is ridiculous.

 

[nPeace]

I am just going to reply to your first claim, "JWs do not proselytize" which is patently false. Explain to me why I get unsolicited handwritten letters from JWs (3 times now) trying to proselytize. JWs knock on my door, proselytizing. Your claim is ridiculous.

Proselytize or Evangelize?
The Greek language has the word pro·se’ly·tos, which means a “convert.” From this has come the English word “proselytism,” which basically means “the act of making converts.” Nowadays, some say that proselytism is harmful. A document published by the World Council of Churches even speaks of “the sin of proselytism.” Why? The Catholic World Report states: “Under the steady hammering of Orthodox complaints, ‘proselytism’ has taken on the connotation of forcible conversion.”

Perhaps you have another definition for proselytize.
That might explain why you hold that view. Would you mind sharing your definition of proselytize?

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

We have told you why, more than once. It is because the Baha'i Writings uphold the virgin birth but reject the bodily resurrection.

But why did Baha'u'llah suddenly decide that he was born of a virgin but did not resurrect after death? What kind of knowledge did Baha'u'llah have to know exactly one miracle but not believe the other? Does Baha'u'llah have some sort of divine intuition that tells him when something is true and when something is false? And doesn't the fact that the Baha'is teach that all the other prophets were born naturally raise red flags when it comes to the specialty of Jesus and his supposed miracle of his existence in the first place? It would be one thing if you said "all messengers exist because of the divine" but you make it abundantly clear that Jesus was the only messenger that had a miraculous birth. Why should people focus so much more on Baha'u'llah when it was Jesus that was the miracle to begin with? Consistency....

 

[CG Didymus]

I really don't understand why Baha'is accept the virgin birth but reject the resurrection.

Now I understand... because their prophet said so. Or... is it that I understand that Baha'is accept the virgin birth and reject the physical resurrection of Jesus, but I don't understand why they would do that. God can and did do the one miracle, the virgin birth, but he can't or didn't want to do the second the bodily resurrection of Jesus? So, the answer Baha'is give is that they say that part of all four gospels, all of a sudden, becomes "symbolic"? How much difference for Baha'is is their for a Jesus that came back to life, and his followers said they saw him, spoke to him and touched him? Compared to a dead Jesus? A dead Jesus where the gospel story still says there was an empty tomb and his followers saw him and said he was indeed alive?

I think calling it "symbolic" is worse. It makes Baha'is have to say that the gospels stories are not accurate, historical depictions of what happened to Jesus. But to wiggle out of having to say it was a hoax, their prophets came up with the "symbolic" solution and say, "It's true, just not literally true... Jesus rose spiritually." That doesn't fit what was written. The writers go out of their way to say that Jesus was alive. It could have been a hoax... A made-up myth or legend, but symbolic? And yes, I understand... It works for Baha'is. Which is what I can't understand. Do Baha'is really think for themselves and personally investigate the truth? Or, come to a point where they believe it is true and, at that point, believe all of what the Baha'i Faith says is true?

 

[CG Didymus]

But why did Baha'u'llah suddenly decide that he was born of a virgin but did not resurrect after death? What kind of knowledge did Baha'u'llah have to know exactly one miracle but not believe the other? Does Baha'u'llah have some sort of divine intuition that tells him when something is true and when something is false? And doesn't the fact that the Baha'is teach that all the other prophets were born naturally raise red flags when it comes to the specialty of Jesus and his supposed miracle of his existence in the first place? It would be one thing if you said "all messengers exist because of the divine" but you make it abundantly clear that Jesus was the only messenger that had a miraculous birth. Why should people focus so much more on Baha'u'llah when it was Jesus that was the miracle to begin with? Consistency....

Yes, consistency. To me they retrofit the beliefs and teachings of some of the other religions to fit theirs. Baha'i say the Ishmael, not Isaac was the son taken by Abraham, even though the Bible makes it clear it was Isaac.

In some forms of Hinduism there are teachings about reincarnation and about many Gods, but the Baha'i Faith says reincarnation doesn't take place and there is only one God. Therefore, Baha'is say that those Hindus that believe those things misinterpreted their own Scriptures.

Some forms of Buddhism don't teach about God. But the Baha'i Faith says that the Buddha did teach about God and was a manifestation sent by that one God.

What I don't understand is why Baha'is claim that all religions are one and came from the same God but then change things in those religions that they don't agree with and don't believe are true? Why not just say that most all religions had some truth in them, and helped guide people to a better way, but they also had some things in them that weren't true... That were just beliefs of those people that, to them at that time, seemed true and sounded and were believe true... but they weren't.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think that all religions deserve the exact equal amount of respect.

Ciao

- viole

I do mostly, except for religions that try to harm , maim, or kill its followers.