what does being baptised mean?

[Eliot Wild]

Free will is a myth :help: (sorry no ryhme or reason for the little help dude, I just like him, is that bad?)

How is freewill a myth? And if it is a myth, wouldn't that make Christianity obsolete?

I daresay if freewill is a myth then not only would Christianity be obsolete but so would many of the seemingly functional models and concepts mankind relies on regularly, such as criminal law codes, democratic systems of government and professional sporting events.

If individuals have no freedom of will, if all their actions are predetermind by forces outside of their control, then what is the point of Christian salvation? What wold be the point of Jesus' teachings? How can you reconcile Jesus' instructions that we should live our lives pursuant to certain guidelines and principles, if we don't have freewill and therefore have no control of our own actions?

I am really curious to read your explanation. It seems to me that freewill is absolutely necessary for Christianity to be real and functional?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

.lava Baptism was a command of Jesus to his followers, and became the initiation of a Christian into the family of the Church as a sacrament.

 

[IKNOWNUFFINK]

Oh, give me a break.

For starters, this is not a Christian forum - this is a RELIGIOUS forum. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

Hi Blessings in the Lord Jesus Christ - I mean't to say Christian thread - sorry . yes aware that religion and Christian are two diferent things.

Im very sorry to hear that you where treated so badly by your husband. On behalf of all men I ask for your forgiveness ( I mean that I'm not being cheeky). God bless you.

The bible says as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. But we are not to practise visualization and such like, we are to trust in the Lord daily. I do agree that if you think something and feel it, it is very powerful - when I was a boy I had a little kitten that I loved very much and I obsessively thought about how sad I would be if he died. Well he was run over by a car within 6 months. Now does that mean I created that scenario or not. Well that sprobably not proveable.

Also did the morbidly obeese senario happen by visualising and repeating a mantra or eating 6000 calories a day? Obviously the thought proceeded he action, but the actions was responsible. Not the thought.

The ability to creat our own realities is not something I reject. Before I was a christian I practised this stuff very succesfully, I know it works. But I question whether it is something God wants us to practice. Thats all.

 

[IKNOWNUFFINK]

How is freewill a myth? And if it is a myth, wouldn't that make Christianity obsolete?

I'm not sure how free will being a myth equates to Christianity being obsolete, given that it is scripture that leads me to this conclusion. If man is to give an account for every thought deed and action and be judged for it - then what freedom is there in that?

It's like the salesman who lies in bed all day and thinks he is free to do no work forgetting that at the end of the month he has a sales meeting where the sales manager is going to expect to know how many calls he has made and waht sales he has made. The salesman is forgetting something isn't he?

I daresay if freewill is a myth then not only would Christianity be obsolete but so would many of the seemingly functional models and concepts mankind relies on regularly, such as criminal law codes, democratic systems of government and professional sporting events.

Im astounded that you can't see your evidence for freewill in actual fact refutes it. We wouldnt need eartly laws and courts if freewill was taken to the extreme, we would be free to murder without consequence, there would be no democracy, the one with the biggest gun would be top dog.

If individuals have no freedom of will, if all their actions are predetermind by forces outside of their control, then what is the point of Christian salvation? What wold be the point of Jesus' teachings? How can you reconcile Jesus' instructions that we should live our lives pursuant to certain guidelines and principles, if we don't have freewill and therefore have no control of our own actions?

Ah, I see where your coming form. But I didnt say everything you do and say is etermined by outside forces. Further more if you had freewill you wouldn't need control over your actions. We have a God given conscience - this alone is enough to refute the concept of freewill. IMHO

I am really curious to read your explanation. It seems to me that freewill is absolutely necessary for Christianity to be real and functional?

Hopefully I have shed some light on where I am coming from

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[Eliot Wild]

I'm not sure how free will being a myth equates to Christianity being obsolete, given that it is scripture that leads me to this conclusion. If man is to give an account for every thought deed and action and be judged for it - then what freedom is there in that?

The freedom of choice? Judgment is consequence. Consequence can certainly influence our freewill, our ability to choose certain actions over others, but it does not eliminate it.

It's like the salesman who lies in bed all day and thinks he is free to do no work forgetting that at the end of the month he has a sales meeting where the sales manager is going to expect to know how many calls he has made and waht sales he has made. The salesman is forgetting something isn't he?

I'm sorry, I suppose the salesman is certainly forgetting something, but I honestly have no idea how this really bears on the central issue, unless to absolutely confirm the concept of freewill. The salesman will suffer a consequence for not working, but the example perfectly illustrates how he is free to choose to ignore that consequence.

Im astounded that you can't see your evidence for freewill in actual fact refutes it. We wouldnt need eartly laws and courts if freewill was taken to the extreme, we would be free to murder without consequence, there would be no democracy, the one with the biggest gun would be top dog.

I don't think we're defining "freewill" the same way. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty much certain we're not. People are certainly free to murder; it happens all the time. People are certainly free to choose governments other than democratic ones; it happens all the time. And likewise, they will face consequences. But again, I don't see consequence as an ultimate limitation to my freedom.

Ah, I see where your coming form. But I didnt say everything you do and say is etermined by outside forces. Further more if you had freewill you wouldn't need control over your actions. We have a God given conscience - this alone is enough to refute the concept of freewill. IMHO

What is your definition of freewill? Because mine is literally the ability to exercise certain control over one's actions, or something very close to that.

 

[IKNOWNUFFINK]

The freedom of choice? Judgment is consequence. Consequence can certainly influence our freewill, our ability to choose certain actions over others, but it does not eliminate it.



I'm sorry, I suppose the salesman is certainly forgetting something, but I honestly have no idea how this really bears on the central issue, unless to absolutely confirm the concept of freewill. The salesman will suffer a consequence for not working, but the example perfectly illustrates how he is free to choose to ignore that consequence.




I don't think we're defining "freewill" the same way. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty much certain we're not. People are certainly free to murder; it happens all the time. People are certainly free to choose governments other than democratic ones; it happens all the time. And likewise, they will face consequences. But again, I don't see consequence as an ultimate limitation to my freedom.





What is your definition of freewill? Because mine is literally the ability to exercise certain control over one's actions, or something very close to that.

My definition is: free to do what ever you want without any consequences therefor there is no need for any control IE free wheeling = requires no breaks

Like your free to accept Christ or reject him, well sure if freedom is ending up in hell for eternity. The creature forgets it's not the Creator is all I'm saying. In some cases it complelety denies a creator exists - I agree it would appear that one is free to do that... but...time only exists in this dimension, we will argueably all enter into the end zone which is timeless.

 

[IKNOWNUFFINK]

The freedom of choice? Judgment is consequence. Consequence can certainly influence our freewill, our ability to choose certain actions over others, but it does not eliminate it.

I agree

I'm sorry, I suppose the salesman is certainly forgetting something, but I honestly have no idea how this really bears on the central issue, unless to absolutely confirm the concept of freewill. The salesman will suffer a consequence for not working, but the example perfectly illustrates how he is free to choose to ignore that consequence.

True but I don't agree that this is freedom because ignoring the consequences doesnt make them go away.

I don't think we're defining "freewill" the same way. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty much certain we're not. People are certainly free to murder; it happens all the time. People are certainly free to choose governments other than democratic ones; it happens all the time. And likewise, they will face consequences. But again, I don't see consequence as an ultimate limitation to my freedom.

I agree people are free to murder, but the consequences are..etc etc if that's freedom and freewill, then I think we can both bend spoons around what freewill is all day long. My son is :"free" to call his mother a ***** to her face in front of me...Oh is that right??? EM no he isnt. A philosopher in his metaphysics class might tell him he is of course.





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[IKNOWNUFFINK]

<H2 class=me>free will

&#8194; &#8211;noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

</H2>
This is the dictionary meaning. I think we agree with part two in its intireity. But to be truely free will we would need to be independent of consequence.

Another idea to hopefully illustrate where I'm coming form.

We didnt chose to be born, and we (unless insane or very, very old sick and infirm) will not choose to die - why then is all the inbetween bit some how all independent of how we arrived and how we will exist? Mankind has to invent all manner of weird and wonderful beliefs in order to justiy the conceptual philosphy of freewill.

"free to do what I want any old time" Pop song lyric

"If it feels good do it" - 60s mantra....

"I did it my way" - Frank sinatra and sid vicious- The theme song to free will.

"do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" First commandment of the satanic bible. etc etc etc

We have evolved from apes - darwin

In addition - to go along with this movement we have people claiming to be Christian who are now telling us the bible is a collection of myths.

The idea and conclusion we can garner form this is "eat drink and be merry because tomorrow we die."

 

[Eliot Wild]

</H2>
This is the dictionary meaning. I think we agree with part two in its intireity. But to be truely free will we would need to be independent of consequence.

Another idea to hopefully illustrate where I'm coming form.

We didnt chose to be born, and we (unless insane or very, very old sick and infirm) will not choose to die - why then is all the inbetween bit some how all independent of how we arrived and how we will exist? Mankind has to invent all manner of weird and wonderful beliefs in order to justiy the conceptual philosphy of freewill.

"free to do what I want any old time" Pop song lyric

"If it feels good do it" - 60s mantra....

"I did it my way" - Frank sinatra and sid vicious- The theme song to free will.

"do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" First commandment of the satanic bible. etc etc etc

We have evolved from apes - darwin

In addition - to go along with this movement we have people claiming to be Christian who are now telling us the bible is a collection of myths.

The idea and conclusion we can garner form this is "eat drink and be merry because tomorrow we die."

I completely disagree with your thinking. No offense intended. I am pretty sure you disagree with mine.

But in my mind, that is okay. Not everybody is going to agree on everything, especially on issues as divisive and controversial as religion, philosophy and ultimate truth.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most commonly used definition of the word, "FREEWILL", is freedom to make personal choices. Freewill is not dependant, one way or the other, on conseqences.

To be honest, I couldn't imagine a world or universe in which our choices didn't have consequences. It is causality. All effects have causes, or so it seems to me. All actions produce some sort of results, whether they be bad or good.

As a matter of fact, our actions can produce good consequences as well. I daresay the reinforcement of either good or bad consequences is the process which brings us to learn from our mistakes.

If I stick my bare hand to an open flame, I will most certainly scorch myself painfully. That is a bad, albeit completely natural, consequence or effect. That doesn't necessarily stop me from doing it. It doesn't negate my freedom to do it if I so choose.

The only reason I point this out, is not an effort to challenge your position. As a matter of fact, your perspective may be more correct than mine. I don't think so, but maybe. I am always willing to concede I might be wrong. However, I point out the common definition of "Freewill" because I believe if you continue to employ one very different than that, you might run into further confusion during future debates and discussions. Good luck.

 

[IKNOWNUFFINK]

I completely disagree with your thinking. No offense intended. I am pretty sure you disagree with mine.

But in my mind, that is okay. Not everybody is going to agree on everything, especially on issues as divisive and controversial as religion, philosophy and ultimate truth.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most commonly used definition of the word, "FREEWILL", is freedom to make personal choices. Freewill is not dependant, one way or the other, on conseqences.

To be honest, I couldn't imagine a world or universe in which our choices didn't have consequences. It is causality. All effects have causes, or so it seems to me. All actions produce some sort of results, whether they be bad or good.

As a matter of fact, our actions can produce good consequences as well. I daresay the reinforcement of either good or bad consequences is the process which brings us to learn from our mistakes.

If I stick my bare hand to an open flame, I will most certainly scorch myself painfully. That is a bad, albeit completely natural, consequence or effect. That doesn't necessarily stop me from doing it. It doesn't negate my freedom to do it if I so choose.

The only reason I point this out, is not an effort to challenge your position. As a matter of fact, your perspective may be more correct than mine. I don't think so, but maybe. I am always willing to concede I might be wrong. However, I point out the common definition of "Freewill" because I believe if you continue to employ one very different than that, you might run into further confusion during future debates and discussions. Good luck.

No offense taken at all - I think you missed the part where I said we agree intirely on what the definition of freewill is in the dictionary unless your saying you don't agree with that off course?

Im just factoring in consequences to the mix, leave that out and we are 100% agreed. But we can't leave it out otherwise the premise is incomplete

a Mathematical equation isn't fact or completed until it comes to a consluison eg 1+1 = 2 at the moment you have a 1, yes it's still a one but it doesnt amount to anything other than 1. IE so what?

I conclude and agree that Freewill is a philosphy only - it's not a proven fact or a reality I embrace and live within. I live within a diferent reality - Gods will be done - not my will. God gives me a reasonable amount of time to agree that freewill is an oximoron and get with the programme.

People call my bible a book of myths, I say the philosohy of freewill is a myth, because we dont have all the factors or the end result to measure it with. Also I fail to see how for example a man being free to go under water and take a deep breath leading to his death by drowning equates to freedom. Perhaps I am bogged down in the semanticc of the meaning of the word free?.

Yes he has the freedom of will to do that, but the action and end result would be insanity. Can I ask you then is insanity the consequence of freewill or is the concept of freewill insane?

You are not free to take a carving knife and open up your body and step outside of your skin and walk around, there are boundaries, and scientific laws in place that preclude you from doing this - I therefore require you to qualify and quantify what you think freewill is? The freedom to cut your finger off does not preclude you from the pain of having it cut off. The old adage "you can't have your cake and eat it to" comes to mind. You can't have your freewill and keep it too - ha ha ha.

You are free to be 21 until your 22 your free to be a live until your dead. It's a myth mate - but I have enjoyed the thought process.

Your free to make up your own mind to do what's right or wrong but you have no say in what is right and what is wrong - I think that just about nailed it.

God bless you.

 

[TashaN]

*Advisory Post*

Please remember that this is in the Christianity DIR and those who don't belong to this faith should only ask respectful questions and observe the rules of DIR (rule 10).
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[Druswid]

Essentially, it all boils down to dunkin' your heiny in either some oil or water or both, accepting Christ as your savior, or whichever other deity whose name you have chosen to be baptized in, and rejecting sin and evil. That's about it. Of course, the personal experience and meaning of it vary from person to person...