• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What does it mean to be a 'Jew'?

Herschel

There is no other.
The word for Jew is Yehudi (Yehudim, plural) a word contracted and derived from Yehudah or Yahhudeh (Judah). When the progenitor of the Jewish people was born, his mother said "...This time will I praise Yahweh: therefore she called his name Judah...." (Genesis 29:35).
You've said that the projenitor of the Jews is Judah. Therefore, to be a Jew means to be of the tribe of Judah.
Most people understand Jacob, Judah's father, to be the projenitor of the Jews, and all twelve of his sons, including Judah, the projenitor of the tribes.


You know, I'm kind of inclined to agree with you on this. It ticks a lot of boxes. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I am so confused by peoples confusion about this topic.

The Israelites were a group of Canaanite tribes that organised at the end of the bronze age when Egypt lost its grip on Canaan, likely due to the battles with the sea peoples.
Afterwards various Canaanite Kingdoms and city states formed, among them the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Yudah.
Both encompassed various Israelite tribes, although there were more in the northern Kingdom of Israel.
When the Kingdom of Israel fell its ruling elite was deported into Assyria and likely lost.
Most of its people fled to the south, which is proven by a population boom in the Kingdom of Yudah.
A new identity might've already taken forms back then but we know that when the Kingdom of Yudah fell to Babylon its ruling elite was also deported.
During this time in Babylon the tribal distinctions became less and less important till they lost most meanings except for the priestly tribe.

And that's all there is to it.
What's confusing about it?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I am so confused by peoples confusion about this topic.

The Israelites were a group of Canaanite tribes that organised at the end of the bronze age when Egypt lost its grip on Canaan, likely due to the battles with the sea peoples.
Afterwards various Canaanite Kingdoms and city states formed, among them the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Yudah.
Both encompassed various Israelite tribes, although there were more in the northern Kingdom of Israel.
When the Kingdom of Israel fell its ruling elite was deported into Assyria and likely lost.
Most of its people fled to the south, which is proven by a population boom in the Kingdom of Yudah.
A new identity might've already taken forms back then but we know that when the Kingdom of Yudah fell to Babylon its ruling elite was also deported.
During this time in Babylon the tribal distinctions became less and less important till they lost most meanings except for the priestly tribe.

And that's all there is to it.
What's confusing about it?
I saw the word "tribes" and related words too many times...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I am so confused by peoples confusion about this topic.

The Israelites were a group of Canaanite tribes that organised at the end of the bronze age when Egypt lost its grip on Canaan, likely due to the battles with the sea peoples.
Afterwards various Canaanite Kingdoms and city states formed, among them the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Yudah.
Both encompassed various Israelite tribes, although there were more in the northern Kingdom of Israel.
When the Kingdom of Israel fell its ruling elite was deported into Assyria and likely lost.
Most of its people fled to the south, which is proven by a population boom in the Kingdom of Yudah.
A new identity might've already taken forms back then but we know that when the Kingdom of Yudah fell to Babylon its ruling elite was also deported.
During this time in Babylon the tribal distinctions became less and less important till they lost most meanings except for the priestly tribe.

And that's all there is to it.
What's confusing about it?

In the beginning, there was 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed, and then ...
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
The Israelites were a group of Canaanite tribes that organised at the end of the bronze age when Egypt lost its grip on Canaan,

Or not. That would be active ethno-genesis. Highly unlikely.


What's confusing about it?

It's not confusing at all. Some people prefer to imagine our origins in one way, some people prefer to imagine our origins another way, some people prefer to keep an open mind.

People choose their point of view based on what is rewarding for them. Some people feel some sense of reward by denying the story in Torah. Some people are rewarded for believing it. Some people are rewarded for keeping an open mind. AND some people are rewarded for trying to rewrite it.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
The God I worship would never reject based on which name is used.

If I narrowly miss getting into a car accident and honestly express gratitude, "Thank you God, Thank you God, Thank you God, etc.."

Do you think this praise is rejected?
Hello dybmh,

Do you think he would reject/object if you were to call him Jethro?

I agree you could talk to him and call him God at times and he would accept it. But you've got to admit God is NOT his name don't you? I mean there are many religions that refer to God, but they are certainly not all talking about the same being. God is a title. His name is what distinguishes him from other so called gods. His name sets him apart. He doesn't want his praise or his glory given to another.

I noticed in some other posts that you had said he had some other names. Wasn't each of those still starting with YHWH? So how can you even use those names if you won't say his name YHWH to begin with?

He said his name will be great among the nations. Malachi 1:11-14 Why do you think he has a book of remembrance concerning those who feared and honored his name? Malachi 3:16 How can you praise and honor his name if you won't even use it?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Do you think he would reject/object if you were to call him Jethro?

I think it depends on what is happening in my heart.
1 Samuel 16:7​
ויאמר יהוה אל־שמואל אל־תבט אל־מראהו ואל־גבה קומתו כי מאסתיהו כי לא אשר יראה האדם כי האדם יראה לעינים ויהוה יראה ללבב׃​
But the Lord said to Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him; for the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.​
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
How can you praise and honor his name if you won't even use it?

By saying Psalms. This is what is found in the begininng of a traditional book of Psalms (Tehillim).

"May it be the will before You, Hashem, our G-d, and the G-d of our forefathers, Who chose David His servant and his offspring after him, and Who chose songs and praises - that you attend with mercy to the recitation of psalms that I shall merit and consider it as if they were recited by King David, of blessed memory, himself, may his merit be a shield over us. And stand in our favor may the merit of the verses of the psalms together with the merit of their words and their letters and their vowels and their cantilations, and together with the Holy Names that are formed from them, from the initial (letters) of the words and from the final (letters) of the words - may their merit serve to bring atonement for our transgressions, iniquities, and sins, and to cut down ruthless men, and slash away all the thorns and briars which surround the Rose, Celestial; and to unite the Bride of Youth with her Beloved in love, brotherhood, and companionship. And from that (unification) may be drawn to us an abundant blessing to our spirit, breath and soul, to purify us of our iniquities, to forgive our sins and to atone for our transgressions, just as You forgave David who recited these very same psalms before You - as it is said: Hashem also has forgiven your sin, you shall not die. May you not take us from This World before our time, until the completion of our years, (among them are seventy years,) in a manner that we be able to rectify anything that we have ruined. May the merit of King David, of blessed memory, shield over us and for us; that You may be patient (with us), (and wait) until we return to You in repentance that is complete before You. From your treasury of grace that is undeserved, be gracious to us - as it is written: I am Compassionate to those whom I favor, and I am Merciful to those upon whom I have mercy. And just as we recite before You a song in This World, so let us merit to recite before You - O Hashem, our G-d - songs and praises in the World to Come. And through the recitation of the psalms arouse the Rose of Sharon to sing with a voice that is pleasant, with ecstasy and joy. May the glory of the Levanon be given to her, majesty and splendor in the House of our G-d, speedily in our days. Amein. Selah!"

"Come! Let us sing joyfully to Hashem, let us call out to the Rock of our Salvation, Let us greet Him with thanksgiving, with praiseful songs let us call out to Him. For a great G-d is Hashem, and a great King above all heavenly powers." <--- Psalm 95.
 
Last edited:

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I thought you had said you gave some verses that proved YHWH Tzvahoht was also his divine name. Did I misunderstand?
What actual name of God can you use? If you can't say YHWH, how can you even say that as an alternate name? And HaShem is not his name.

Could you comment on what I had sent regarding the verses in Malachi? He said he had a book of remembrance for those who honored his name.

What are the other names you were referring to that are acceptable to use?

Your answer No above, wasn't because I spelled God's name with a W instead of a V was it? Because I refer you to posts 15, 19, and especially post 38 where you said you had provided 5 verses from Isaiah and Jeremiah which literally state YHVH-Tzvaohot is God's name.
 
Last edited:

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I think it depends on what is happening in my heart.
1 Samuel 16:7​
ויאמר יהוה אל־שמואל אל־תבט אל־מראהו ואל־גבה קומתו כי מאסתיהו כי לא אשר יראה האדם כי האדם יראה לעינים ויהוה יראה ללבב׃​
But the Lord said to Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him; for the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.​

True he looks on the heart. But God's great name is holy, and above all names. Other than thru ignorance (lack of understanding) - How could anyone possibly think it would be acceptable to intentionally use a false name like Jethro as a substitute for God's true name?

To me that would be disrespect for his holy name - To think that some other name (a false name at that) could be an equivalent for it.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
True he looks on the heart. But God's great name is holy, and above all names. Other than thru ignorance (lack of understanding) - How could anyone possibly think it would be acceptable to intentionally use a false name like Jethro as a substitute for God's true name?

To me that would be disrespect for his holy name - To think that some other name could be an equivalent for it.
Humans can 'think' of many different names for the 'Source' some call God, but it remains all possible names of God are simply descriptive from the fallible human cultural perspective. A universal 'Source' would not have the name or names assigned by any on culture over the thousands of years of human existence. This remains only one of the many tribal problems between the many diverse subjective conflicting beliefs over the millennia of human existence.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Humans can 'think' of many different names for the 'Source' some call God, but it remains all possible names of God are simply descriptive from the fallible human cultural perspective. A universal 'Source' would not have the name or names assigned by any on culture over the thousands of years of human existence. This remains only one of the many tribal problems between the many diverse subjective conflicting beliefs over the millennia of human existence.

But in this case, we have scriptures where God revealed his name. So we don't have to guess what it is.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As a result, I feel it is important to point out that by substituting the Name of Yahweh, it would indicate you are not fulfilling your own name.
"Yahweh" was and is actually written without vowels. Many Jews, in respect for the holy name, may substitute "haShem" [the Name] in regular conversation.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Day 912500 of non-Jews explaining Jewish peoplehood and national religion to Jews

Yep, I have to agree, that it is so pathetically brazen some outside of Judaism are here trying to convince Jews of what supposedly Jews should believe. What arrogance!
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
... And HaShem is not his name.

Agreed. FYI: The name YHVH is included in many of the traditional Hebrew texts. I just checked two books of Psalms from two different orthodox publishers.

Screenshot_20240201_082859.jpg

I thought you had said you gave some verses that proved YHWH Tzvahoht was also his divine name.

YHVH Tzvaoht, yes is one of God's names. Yes, that is one that I had referred to.

Did I misunderstand?

Perhaps **I** misunderstood.

I noticed in some other posts that you had said he had some other names. Wasn't each of those still starting with YHWH?

I interpretted your question: "Wasn't each of God's other names starting with YHVH/YHWH?" I thought you were asking about ALL of God's names ( "each of those other names" ) in Hebrew. Do they ALL begin with YHVH? I answered 'No'. Some of them do.

What actual name of God can you use?

The only one which is, technically, not pronounceable in absolute truth is YHVH.

If you can't say YHWH, how can you even say that [ one of the others ] as an alternate name?

Because as a finite being, I can utter the other names properly in absolute truth. "My Lord" is something which can easily and rapidly produce a conception and comprehension in both mind and heart of the Lord God the Most High ( "אײבערשטער" in yiddish ) in absolute truth. Of course, it can be spoiled, or polluted, for lack of better words, by applying human-fleshy forms to this conception and comprehension. One method, among others, to prevent this, is, to retain a certain awe and reverence for the names of God. Retaining this awe ( healthy fear ) is a practice. Day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, moment to moment. It's a way of life. Hence the useage of 'HaShem' in everday conversation or 'Aybeshter' in yiddish.

If it is practiced and included as part of the way of life of being Jewish, then in prayer it happens almost automatically. The prayer service is written and designed intentionally to facilitate this awe and reverance while simultaneously laying a foundation for an encounter with the one and only God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

God is infinitely mysterious. The name YHVH is a mystery reflecting this ( to a small degree, in comparrison ). When the name is included in prayer, it is an opportunity to produce a unique conception and comprehension which is absolutely true as long as the name remains ... unspoken. Pronouncing the name is making it less mysterious which undermines, and potentially sabatoges, the comprehension and conception which is needed for the psyche ( heart-and-mind ) to encounter God at the extreme, most profound levels, of human capability.

King David writes:
139:6​
פלאיה דעת ממני נשגבה לא־אוכל לה׃​
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it.​

Moses writes:
91:1​
ישב בסתר עליון בצל שדי יתלונן׃​
He who dwells in the secret place of the most High, who abides under the shadow of the Almighty,​
91:2​
אמר ליהוה מחסי ומצודתי אלהי אבטח־בו׃​
Will say to the Lord: "My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust".​

The Sons of Korach sing in the temple:
84:13​
יהוה צבאות אשרי אדם בטח בך׃​
Lord of hosts, happy is the man who trusts in you.​

Could you comment on what I had sent regarding the verses in Malachi? He said he had a book of remembrance for those who honored his name.

Sure. God's name in that context is not the pronounciation. Pronouncing it correctly is important, but, there's more that's needed for those who are described as "priests". This is clear to me, in context and specifically from verse 6. Also, verse 10, imo, is significant for this discussion because of the spiritual directive embedded in the verse. When I read it, closing the "doors" has a double meaning and "kindling fire on God's altar" is both material and spiritual.

The book of remembrance records God's actions and miracles and promises which are fullfilled. These are the reasons why God's name is revered beyond the borders...

The chapter ends:

וארור נוכל ויש בעדרו זכר ונדר וזבח משחת לאדני כי מלך גדול אני אמר יהוה צבאות ושמי נורא בגוים׃​
Let the deceiver be cursed, who has in his flock a male, and yet vows, and sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished; for I am a great king, says the Lord of hosts, and my name feared among the nations.​

When something is fearsome it is not engaged casually. We can go through the whole chapter verse by verse if you'd like.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
True he looks on the heart. But God's great name is holy, and above all names.

Agreed. And a name is more than its pronounication.

Other than thru ignorance (lack of understanding)

Lack of understanding, imo, is different than ignorance. Knowledge and understanding are distinct. Knowledge is purely cerebral. Understanding can be intellectual, emotive, or a combination of both.

- How could anyone possibly think it would be acceptable to intentionally use a false name like Jethro as a substitute for God's true name?

I think that depends on what "Jethro" means. Also it depends on whether or not God revealed itself to the individual as "Jethro". Or perhaps it would be better written: It depends on whether or not God revelaed itself as THE-Jethro.

To me that would be disrespect for his holy name - To think that some other name (a false name at that) could be an equivalent for it.

Hopefully I have not implied or accidentally written that any of the other names are equivalent. Each of the names has a form, function, and scope to be used in the proper time, in the proper place, and in the proper circumstances. However, because the one and only God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob has no form, is boundless in scope, and omnipotent in function, then it is disrespectful to apply form, function, and scope to God's most holy name.

Pronouncing God's most holy name, in a way, is putting God in a cognitive "box". From a Jewish perspective, that is heretical. We understand that God is absolutely literally limitless and unknowable. This informs our practice and our way of life.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Agreed. FYI: The name YHVH is included in many of the traditional Hebrew texts. I just checked two books of Psalms from two different orthodox publishers.

View attachment 87689



YHVH Tzvaoht, yes is one of God's names. Yes, that is one that I had referred to.



Perhaps **I** misunderstood.



I interpretted your question: "Wasn't each of God's other names starting with YHVH/YHWH?" I thought you were asking about ALL of God's names ( "each of those other names" ) in Hebrew. Do they ALL begin with YHVH? I answered 'No'. Some of them do.



The only one which is, technically, not pronounceable in absolute truth is YHVH.



Because as a finite being, I can utter the other names properly in absolute truth. "My Lord" is something which can easily and rapidly produce a conception and comprehension in both mind and heart of the Lord God the Most High ( "אײבערשטער" in yiddish ) in absolute truth. Of course, it can be spoiled, or polluted, for lack of better words, by applying human-fleshy forms to this conception and comprehension. One method, among others, to prevent this, is, to retain a certain awe and reverence for the names of God. Retaining this awe ( healthy fear ) is a practice. Day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, moment to moment. It's a way of life. Hence the useage of 'HaShem' in everday conversation or 'Aybeshter' in yiddish.

If it is practiced and included as part of the way of life of being Jewish, then in prayer it happens almost automatically. The prayer service is written and designed intentionally to facilitate this awe and reverance while simultaneously laying a foundation for an encounter with the one and only God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

God is infinitely mysterious. The name YHVH is a mystery reflecting this ( to a small degree, in comparrison ). When the name is included in prayer, it is an opportunity to produce a unique conception and comprehension which is absolutely true as long as the name remains ... unspoken. Pronouncing the name is making it less mysterious which undermines, and potentially sabatoges, the comprehension and conception which is needed for the psyche ( heart-and-mind ) to encounter God at the extreme, most profound levels, of human capability.

King David writes:
139:6​
פלאיה דעת ממני נשגבה לא־אוכל לה׃​
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it.​

Moses writes:
91:1​
ישב בסתר עליון בצל שדי יתלונן׃​
He who dwells in the secret place of the most High, who abides under the shadow of the Almighty,​
91:2​
אמר ליהוה מחסי ומצודתי אלהי אבטח־בו׃​
Will say to the Lord: "My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust".​

The Sons of Korach sing in the temple:
84:13​
יהוה צבאות אשרי אדם בטח בך׃​
Lord of hosts, happy is the man who trusts in you.​



Sure. God's name in that context is not the pronounciation. Pronouncing it correctly is important, but, there's more that's needed for those who are described as "priests". This is clear to me, in context and specifically from verse 6. Also, verse 10, imo, is significant for this discussion because of the spiritual directive embedded in the verse. When I read it, closing the "doors" has a double meaning and "kindling fire on God's altar" is both material and spiritual.

The book of remembrance records God's actions and miracles and promises which are fullfilled. These are the reasons why God's name is revered beyond the borders...

The chapter ends:

וארור נוכל ויש בעדרו זכר ונדר וזבח משחת לאדני כי מלך גדול אני אמר יהוה צבאות ושמי נורא בגוים׃​
Let the deceiver be cursed, who has in his flock a male, and yet vows, and sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished; for I am a great king, says the Lord of hosts, and my name feared among the nations.​

When something is fearsome it is not engaged casually. We can go through the whole chapter verse by verse if you'd like.
But when you say my Lord - you are just using a title. All kinds of religions call their God - Lord or God. Surely you know that Moses and David verbally spoke the name of God.

YHWH of hosts is from two separate words. The first word is definitely the name of God. You said you don't pronounce it. So I Don't see how you are able to say this phrase (what you are calling another name) either. (The very first word you would be saying is his name.)

When he says this is my divine name, why could he not just be talking about the actual name YHWH? You have the actual name pointed to remind you to say Adonai or Elohim, etc. rather than say the name - right? So if the second part of this is his name (as you say) , then why is it not pointed also to keep you from saying it? You know you say the Hebrew word meaning - "of armies/hosts" without any problem. Just because it's in construct with the name shouldn't necessarily mean it is the name.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
But when you say my Lord - you are just using a title.

Not in my mind and heart. It's not just any lord. It is MY Lord, the Most High, the one and only God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the unbound, the uncreated creator of the heavens and the earth, the God of the Flood, the God fo the plagues, Moses' God, Isaiah's God, Jeremiah's God, Ezekiel's God... When I pronounce it, carefully, in prayer, it is aleph-dalet-nun-yud. Each letter has a form, function, and scope. Each syllable has a form, function, and scope. It's not just a title when I use it.

All kinds of religions call their God - Lord or God.

I cannot speak accurately about what any of those others do in prayer.

Surely you know that Moses and David verbally spoke the name of God.

No doubt. It was in the right time, right place, right circumstances.

For me? Moses writes:
17:9​
ובאת אל־הכהנים הלוים ואל־השפט אשר יהיה בימים ההם ודרשת והגידו לך את דבר המשפט׃​
And you shall come to the priests the Levites, and to the judge who shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment;​
17:10​
ועשית על־פי הדבר אשר יגידו לך מן־המקום ההוא אשר יבחר יהוה ושמרת לעשות ככל אשר יורוך׃​
And you shall do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the Lord shall choose shall declare to you; and you shall take care to do according to all that they inform you;​
17:11​
על־פי התורה אשר יורוך ועל־המשפט אשר־יאמרו לך תעשה לא תסור מן־הדבר אשר־יגידו לך ימין ושמאל׃​
According to the sentence of the Torah which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not decline from the sentence which they shall declare to you, to the right hand, nor to the left.​

Not to the right nor to the left means not towards increased leniency, nor towards increased strictness. It has been established, by the judges of the day, the name YHVH is not pronounceable.

YHWH of hosts is from two separate words. The first word is definitely the name of God. You said you don't pronounce it. So I Don't see how you are able to say this phrase (what you are calling another name) either. (The very first word you would be saying is his name.)

The meaning of the name and the reasons for the name are cultivated in the heart-and-mind. With careful practice, in prayer, all of that is united:

"YHVH is My Lord" <----> "My Lord of Hosts".

When he says this is my divine name, why could he not just be talking about the actual name YHWH?

If you bring a verse, I can answer more specifically.

You have the actual name pointed to remind you to say Adonai or Elohim, etc. rather than say the name - right?

YHVH? Traditionally, no. The vowels are omitted to remind one that the name is pronounceable. Anytime the YHVH is in any text Jewish practice is to utter aleph-dalet-nun-yud, "Adonai", which is contrasted with "adoni". (my LORD, vs, my lord)

So if the second part of this is his name (as you say) , then why is it not pointed also to keep you from saying it. You know you say the Hebrew word meaning - "of armies/hosts" without any problem. Just because it's in construct with the name shouldn't necessarily mean it is the name.

The two parts together are a name. They describe a manner in which God is revealing itself. YHVH-Tzvahot is revealing itself in a manner of The one and only concealed mysterious commander of hosts ( nearly infinite magnificent multitudes) of divine powers. Tzvahot are simply the hosts. It's not a divine name. They are comprehended as battalions which charge out executing glorious victory by the Lord's command ( will ).
 
Last edited:
Top