• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
What are the criteria of things one must deny in order to be classified as "denying Jesus" - according to the NT? I dont want any church doctrine related opinions, I just want to know specifically what the NT says on the issue, and preferably just from Matthew, Mark, or Luke.

Does "to deny Jesus" mean:

1. To deny that truth can be found in his message?
2. To deny the miracles he performed?
3. To deny He is God?

or something else? I'm just curious what the NT specifically says on the subject.. what are the criteria of things one must deny in order to be classified as denying Jesus, according to the NT? Thanks
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
What are the criteria of things one must deny in order to be classified as "denying Jesus" - according to the NT? I dont want any church doctrine related opinions, I just want to know specifically what the NT says on the issue, and preferably just from Matthew, Mark, or Luke.

Does "to deny Jesus" mean:

1. To deny that truth can be found in his message?
2. To deny the miracles he performed?
3. To deny He is God?

or something else? I'm just curious what the NT specifically says on the subject.. what are the criteria of things one must deny in order to be classified as denying Jesus, according to the NT? Thanks

The short answer is with what are the things about Jesus don't you agree? They are on the list.
You can add John and Paul to that list as well----by rejecting their witness one denies Jesus.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The short answer is with what are the things about Jesus don't you agree? They are on the list.
You can add John and Paul to that list as well----by rejecting their witness one denies Jesus.

You don't necessarily deny Jesus by denying Paul. In fact, I believe you deny Jesus by accepting Paul, who I and many others believe was a False apostle and that the parts of the scripture saying the Apostles affirmed him were likely interpolated later and has contradictions between Galatians 2 and Acts 15. By accepting Paul's doctrine, you nullify practically everything Jesus actually said. How many times does Paul quote Jesus again?

I have a thread on this in how the word "Deny" is specifically used in Jude.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/128636-denying-jesus.html
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


2 Tim 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


Jesus is the Christian's mediator with the Father and the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. He is the ONLY way. If a person deny's Christ, He will deny them to the Father and there will be no way to enter heaven.


Denying Him...is by saying, that there are “other ways” to enter Heaven. Jews, Muslims, elected leaders...do not like to hear this. I understand...if I were Jewish or a Muslim...I'd be the same way.


However...this is plainly what the Christian Bible says...like it or not.


So understanding what denying Christ is all about is of live saving importance. Take it or leave it....
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


2 Tim 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


Jesus is the Christian's mediator with the Father and the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. He is the ONLY way. If a person deny's Christ, He will deny them to the Father and there will be no way to enter heaven.


Denying Him...is by saying, that there are “other ways” to enter Heaven. Jews, Muslims, elected leaders...do not like to hear this. I understand...if I were Jewish or a Muslim...I'd be the same way.


However...this is plainly what the Christian Bible says...like it or not.


So understanding what denying Christ is all about is of live saving importance. Take it or leave it....

One of the reasons why I said I preferred the references to be from Matthew, Mark, or Luke, is because John came the latest and there is a lot of evidence it is the least accurate gospel. I'm aware that John says Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him.. but I find it odd that none of the other gospels mention anything like this?

But anyways you didn't really answer my question, you just gave me a Church doctrine related opinion, and I'm only interested in hearing what the NT has to say. For there are many other interpretations of John 14:6 that are different than yours. I want to know what the NT says specifically regarding the criteria of things one must deny in order to "deny" Jesus. Maybe it doesn't directly say, and that's fine, I'm just curious.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
One of the reasons why I said I preferred the references to be from Matthew, Mark, or Luke, is because John came the latest and there is a lot of evidence it is the least accurate gospel. I'm aware that John says Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him.. but I find it odd that none of the other gospels mention anything like this?

But anyways you didn't really answer my question, you just gave me a Church doctrine related opinion, and I'm only interested in hearing what the NT has to say. For there are many other interpretations of John 14:6 that are different than yours. I want to know what the NT says specifically regarding the criteria of things one must deny in order to "deny" Jesus. Maybe it doesn't directly say, and that's fine, I'm just curious.

I don't ascribe to any 'official' church doctrine. I assumed what I used was "what the NT had to say"...but, you appear to me as picking and choosing. The NT teaches the ways to deny Him are numerous...one is to be ashamed to be a Christian. This can be done in many ways.

When one is unwilling to tell others the good news about Jesus Christ - that's one way. Many Christians often allow fear and shame to be what compels us to not say a word to those who need to hear the Christian message.

Jesus said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels” (Mark 8:37).

I can also deny my Lord through my disobedience. If I love Him, I'll keep His commandments/principles.
 

Bob Dixon

>implying
Matthew 10:33But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


2 Tim 2:12If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


Jesus is the Christian's mediator with the Father and the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. He is the ONLY way. If a person deny's Christ, He will deny them to the Father and there will be no way to enter heaven.


Denying Him...is by saying, that there are “other ways” to enter Heaven. Jews, Muslims, elected leaders...do not like to hear this. I understand...if I were Jewish or a Muslim...I'd be the same way.


However...this is plainly what the Christian Bible says...like it or not.


So understanding what denying Christ is all about is of live saving importance. Take it or leave it....

If your interpretation was correct, then Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and all those other holy men would be in hell. Are they, since they never came to the Father through Jesus?
And then, those people who happened, arbitrarily, to never have heard of Jesus. What about them?

Think for a bit. Does this make sense?
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
If your interpretation was correct, then Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and all those other holy men would be in hell. Are they, since they never came to the Father through Jesus?
And then, those people who happened, arbitrarily, to never have heard of Jesus. What about them?

Think for a bit. Does this make sense?

Are you a Christian having to ask this question?

Please check out Hebrews 10:1-4. When an Israelite lived by faith under the Law of Moses, he/she would eventually be saved by the blood of Christ (not the blood of animals).

Consider Noah, who was an "heir of the righteousness which is according to
faith" (Heb. 11:7). He was saved "by grace through faith". It was the
blood of Christ which redeemed him from his sin, just as it is the blood of
Christ that redeems sinners today.

Romans 2:14 - answers your comment about the people who have never heard about Christ. (they were a Law unto themselves).
 

Bob Dixon

>implying
Are you a Christian having to ask this question?

Yes. Yes, I am.


Please check out Hebrews 10:1-4. When an Israelite lived by faith under the Law of Moses, he/she would eventually be saved by the blood of Christ (not the blood of animals).

Consider Noah, who was an "heir of the righteousness which is according to
faith" (Heb. 11:7). He was saved "by grace through faith". It was the
blood of Christ which redeemed him from his sin, just as it is the blood of
Christ that redeems sinners today.
Is there anything from the words of Jesus that can help support this?

Romans 2:14 - answers your comment about the people who have never heard about Christ. (they were a Law unto themselves).
So, then, it's not necessary to have heard of Christ to be "saved". It's about following the "Law" that comes from within (if you're a gentile, that is), no?
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
I don't ascribe to any 'official' church doctrine. I assumed what I used was "what the NT had to say"...but, you appear to me as picking and choosing. The NT teaches the ways to deny Him are numerous...one is to be ashamed to be a Christian. This can be done in many ways.

When one is unwilling to tell others the good news about Jesus Christ - that's one way. Many Christians often allow fear and shame to be what compels us to not say a word to those who need to hear the Christian message.

Jesus said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels” (Mark 8:37).

I can also deny my Lord through my disobedience. If I love Him, I'll keep His commandments/principles.

Well considering I created the topic, I most certainly have the right to pick and choose - as I clearly did with the conditions I set in my original post. I said I wanted to hear what the NT itself had to say on the issue, and preferably from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, since in the limited scholarly research I've done on the gospels, those appear to be more accurate IMO. But anyways, you gave me your interpretation of a verse, which is not the kind of answer I was looking for, I just want verses from the NT. And you did give me some, so thank you.

You brought up an interesting point I'd like to expand upon(the part of your quote I bolded). Christians believe Jesus, as the messiah, never sinned and thus lived perfectly according to the law - and they will go at great lengths to argue that this is true. They also believed he fulfilled the law in the sense that what he taught and stood for perfectly symbolized everything needed to be learned in the law, plus more. The point I would like to make, is that pretty much everything Jesus taught was in accordance with the teachings of the Hebrew Bible(OT), or so Christians believe at least. And if you wish to believe that Jesus perfectly kept the law and fulfilled it, then you must also believe that what he taught and stood for did not contradict the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. So if a Jew, for example, devotes his life to studying and living according to the Hebrew Bible, then in effect he is following the same things that Jesus taught.

My knowledge of the NT is not that great.. I read through the first 3 gospels several months ago, and I really enjoyed it. I was not ashamed of the things Jesus taught, rather I respected them and thought a lot of value and truth could be found in his teachings. He wasn't teaching radically new things, rather his message was very consistent with the Hebrew Bible. For example, when Jesus said "love your neighbor as yourself," he didnt make that up, rather he was reiterating the importance of a commandment in the Hebrew Bible. In many ways Jesus reminds me of the prophets of the Tanakh in the way that his message reiterates the importance of repenting and turning back to God's law. All of the prophets called for Israel to repent and return to God, and so did Jesus..

So far from this thread, the main answer I've been given is that to "deny" Jesus means to deny that truth can be found in his teachings. But if one follows the Hebrew Bible, then they are essentially following and respecting the exact things Jesus taught. I just think the saying "to deny Jesus" is not as black and white as a lot of Christians want to make it.
 
Last edited:

Bob Dixon

>implying
You brought up an interesting point I'd like to expand upon(the part of your quote I bolded). Christians believe Jesus, as the messiah, never sinned and thus lived perfectly according to the law - and they will go at great lengths to argue that this is true. They also believed he fulfilled the law in the sense that what he taught and stood for perfectly symbolized everything needed to be learned in the law, plus more. The point I would like to make, is that pretty much everything Jesus taught was in accordance with the teachings of the Hebrew Bible(OT), or so Christians believe at least. And if you wish to believe that Jesus perfectly kept the law and fulfilled it, then you must also believe that what he taught and stood for did not contradict the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. So if a Jew, for example, devotes his life to studying and living according to the Hebrew Bible, then in effect he is following the same things that Jesus taught.

My knowledge of the NT is not that great.. I read through the first 3 gospels several months ago, and I really enjoyed it. I was not ashamed of the things Jesus taught, rather I respected them and thought a lot of value and truth could be found in his teachings. He wasn't teaching radically new things, rather his message was very consistent with the Hebrew Bible. For example, when Jesus said "love your neighbor as yourself," he didnt make that up, rather he was reiterating the importance of a commandment in the Hebrew Bible. In many ways Jesus reminds me of the prophets of the Tanakh in the way that his message reiterates the importance of repenting and turning back to God's law. All of the prophets called for Israel to repent and return to God, and so did Jesus..

So far from this thread, the main answer I've been given is that to "deny" Jesus means to deny that truth can be found in his teachings. But if one follows the Hebrew Bible, then they are essentially following and respecting the exact things Jesus taught. I just think the saying "to deny Jesus" is not as black and white as a lot of Christians want to make it.

Basically, you're right. Jesus said that he didn't come to glorify himself, but in praise of the Father (John 6:38, "For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me". There are other similar verses, but I just can't think of them right now.) He preached adherence to the Law and the Words of the Prophets, teaching their eternity (until "all be fulfilled"; you can take a look at all the prophecies yourself and tell me if "all" are "fulfilled"). But another thing he preached, and it is important to note this, is to even go above and beyond the Law. The scribes and Pharisees, after all, were following the Law. So, clearly, the true righteous person had to go above and beyond. That was another aspect of his ideas, but he wasn't the first one to say that.

Whether Jesus was or was not the Christ is disputable, I guess. Some think he was, some think he wasn't. That's OK. What really mattered to him was that the truth of the Hebrew Bible was recognised by the people he was talking to. He cited it often and gave interpretations of its passages often. He seemed to have had a good knowledge of it. It was important to him.
Are we, then, to build a cult of personality around him? Or are we to work righteously always? What's better? Perhaps Matthew 7:21-23 can provide an answer to that question.

Your question of what it means to "deny" Jesus is a disputable one. But I think that we're on the right track here!
 
Last edited:

Green Kepi

Active Member
Yes. Yes, I am.



Is there anything from the words of Jesus that can help support this?


So, then, it's not necessary to have heard of Christ to be "saved". It's about following the "Law" that comes from within (if you're a gentile, that is), no?

How can anyone think my Lord would let billions slip into eternal Hell (which I don't believe - I believe God will destroy the lost souls at Judgment) without offering them so much as a possibility of finding forgiveness...(I can see God with tears in His eyes saying, "How could any of you think that I could be so heartless?" This type of salvation is what the whole book of Jonah is about!

Romans 2:16 - tells us that God will judge men through Jesus. In other words, the ones that did not hear any words of Jesus and did not have the Law (they formed their own laws).

God has put in all men an inner sense of right and wrong. So people that never heard will be judged by their own conscience (laws). Did they break their own laws? Hebrews 9:15 tells me that the Blood of Christ saves them. The good law biding people of Nineveh were not baptized yet the Blood of Christ saved them...just like baptized people of today.

When God chose Abraham, in effect He said to the Gentiles, "I'm going to have to leave you for awhile because of the sin that has come into the human family. I'm going to prepare salvation for you for you thru a man and a Nation, and I'll bring a redeemer to save you. I will write Romans 3:29 over the Book of Jonah in my Bible.
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
Basically, you're right. Jesus said that he didn't come to glorify himself, but in praise of the Father (John 6:38, "For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me". There are other similar verses, but I just can't think of them right now.) He preached adherence to the Law and the Words of the Prophets, teaching their eternity (until "all be fulfilled"; you can take a look at all the prophecies yourself and tell me if "all" are "fulfilled"). But another thing he preached, and it is important to note this, is to even go above and beyond the Law. The scribes and Pharisees, after all, were following the Law. So, clearly, the true righteous person had to go above and beyond. That was another aspect of his ideas, but he wasn't the first one to say that.

Whether Jesus was or was not the Christ is disputable, I guess. Some think he was, some think he wasn't. That's OK. What really mattered to him was that the truth of the Hebrew Bible was recognised by the people he was talking to. He cited it often and gave interpretations of its passages often. He seemed to have had a good knowledge of it. It was important to him.
Are we, then, to build a cult of personality around him? Or are we to work righteously always? What's better? Perhaps Matthew 7:21-23 can provide an answer to that question.

Your question of what it means to "deny" Jesus is a disputable one. But I think that we're on the right track here!

Great post. I believe God's primary demand of us is ethical behavior and not faith related. I think a lot of truth can be found in Jesus's teachings, his call to repentance and turning back to God is extremely important. I don't know if he's the messiah, for there are still many messianic prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled, so I can't know that Jesus will be the one to fulfill them.. but I trust that God's Will will be done. And I don't think God will hold that against me if he is indeed the messiah. Because ultimately what matter's is putting trust in God, and God alone. And when you do this, you will be blessed:

Jer. 17:7 “Blessed is he who trusts in the Lord, Whose trust is the Lord alone.”

I don't think God will punish me for trusting and serving Him. And like I said before, I can't stress enough that when reading the NT, many of the things Jesus taught were things many modern Jews study and apply to their lives from the Hebrew Bible/OT.

Green Kepi said:
How can anyone think my Lord would let billions slip into eternal Hell (which I don't believe - I believe God will destroy the lost souls at Judgment) without offering them so much as a possibility of finding forgiveness...(I can see God with tears in His eyes saying, "How could any of you think that I could be so heartless?" This type of salvation is what the whole book of Jonah is about!

I just don't understand how people can believe in such a God who's mercy is so limited. Is His arm to short to save those who have lived good lives (Isaiah 59:1)? My God says He is near to all who call Him in sincerity (Psalm 145:18-20) .. regardless of the type of mediator. He gives mercy to those that give up their evil ways and confess their sins (Proverbs 28:13, Ezekiel 33), and He will never despise True Sacrifice to God: a contrite heart and spirit(Psalm 51). Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets of the Tanakh wen't to heaven(assuming there is a heaven) because they did these things and all that God ONLY requires of us: Micah 6:6-8. They served the God that revealed Himself to the Jews at Mt Sinai, the God that all Jews have been worshiping ever since. And I simply see no reason why Jews, and other people who don't serve Jesus can't do these things as well. Shalom!
 
Last edited:

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Yes. Yes, I am.



Is there anything from the words of Jesus that can help support this?

Bob, (Luke 24:27, 44-48) verified by Jesus that HE WAS/IS the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world"(promised). (Rev.13:8) That all those "sacrifices" pointed to HIM.


So, then, it's not necessary to have heard of Christ to be "saved". It's about following the "Law" that comes from within (if you're a gentile, that is), no?

Bob, the key words are "Who ----DO by nature the things contained in the law..."
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


2 Tim 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


Jesus is the Christian's mediator with the Father and the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. He is the ONLY way. If a person deny's Christ, He will deny them to the Father and there will be no way to enter heaven.


Denying Him...is by saying, that there are “other ways” to enter Heaven. Jews, Muslims, elected leaders...do not like to hear this. I understand...if I were Jewish or a Muslim...I'd be the same way.


However...this is plainly what the Christian Bible says...like it or not.


So understanding what denying Christ is all about is of live saving importance. Take it or leave it....

Let´s say someone denies biblical Jesus, but everyday acknowledge a lot of sick, homeless peoples (and this people ARE Jesus (at least according to him, don´t take my words :p ) and help them as a true brother/sister.

dude, he is totally going to heaven. :p
 

Shermana

Heretic
Bob, (Luke 24:27, 44-48) verified by Jesus that HE WAS/IS the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world"(promised). (Rev.13:8) That all those "sacrifices" pointed to HIM.




Bob, the key words are "Who ----DO by nature the things contained in the law..."

Are you referring to Revelation 13:8? Many mistranslate this verse. It's not "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", it's "THe book written before the foundation of the world".

The NLT fixes up this often misconstrued verse:
New Living Translation (©2007)
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made--the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Let´s say someone denies biblical Jesus, but everyday acknowledge a lot of sick, homeless peoples (and this people ARE Jesus (at least according to him, don´t take my words :p ) and help them as a true brother/sister.

dude, he is totally going to heaven. :p

Of course, the things you just mentioned are good. That's what life is about, giving comfort to those who suffer. But, without Jesus' saving blood...it's just good deeds. Conversely, 'good works' alone have only a superficial value.
However...Romans 3:10 says "no"...because it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one”. John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me." So...unfortunately the 'good dude' is not going to heaven.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Of course, the things you just mentioned are good. That's what life is about, giving comfort to those who suffer. But, without Jesus' saving blood...it's just good deeds.

Don´t worry, the people they assist when ill I am sure will give them their "blood" for it.

If someone asks A "go work at my field" and A says "I will", but doesn´t and then this someone asks B "Go work at my field" and B says "I wont" and does, who diserves the pay?

Becaus to accept the sick is the same as to accept Jesus (in his very own words), so who can deny the blood of Jesus to he who has served him and to which Jesus looks pleased and with grattitude for his serving? After this one dies, even after spending all his life working on the field and saying "there is no field", who can deny him his reward? after he in the spirit can see and recognize beyond mere words and association that he has been choosing Jesus all allong?

Certainly no reason to believe Jesus would deny him. He didn´t condemn for ignorance. After all "forgive them father, because they don´t know what they are doing". How then, can he not forgive those who not knowing what they are doing, they still do good instead of bad? they still recognize Jesus even if they are not aware they are doing so?

If you want to think Jesus doesn´t have that compassion, you are free to think that way. I think him way higher of him than that.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Me Myself...I tried to follow what you said in your last post, I really did; however, you lost me. All I know is that only the shed blood of Christ saves. In Acts 2 starting at verse 37-38...we have the whole Plan of Salvation.

"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart (They Heard & Believed)...this came first. Next...they said to Peter and the other Apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" (How?)...Answered in verse 38....Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, (coordinating conjunction - items of equal value) every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ (confess) for the forgiveness of sin. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That's the only way to make it to Heaven...to be saved....
 
Top