What does it mean to walk by Faith?

[Thanda]

In 2 Corithians 5:7 Paul speaks walking by faith and not by sight.

What do you understand by this? Specifically what does this mean in relation to the existence of God? Are we expected to follow God's commandment based on the belief that He exists, or should a Christian follow God based on a knowledge that He exists?

 

[InChrist]

In 2 Corithians 5:7 Paul speaks walking by faith and not by sight.

What do you understand by this? Specifically what does this mean in relation to the existence of God? Are we expected to follow God's commandment based on the belief that He exists, or should a Christian follow God based on a knowledge that He exists?

I think it means both, although we cannot physically see God, we can walk knowing and believing He exists.

 

[Thanda]

I think it means both, although we cannot physically see God, we can walk knowing and believing He exists.

And how can we know?

 

[InChrist]

And how can we know?

I think God's existence can be known by His creative power displayed through nature and the universe and the historical accounts and revelations of Himself given through the scriptures and of course through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I'm just leaving for the day so may have to continue this conversation later.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

And how can we know?

I think it relates to faith providing purpose, and purpose cannot be seen, but is better to act on than how things appear superficially?

 

[Brickjectivity]

In 2 Corithians 5:7 Paul speaks walking by faith and not by sight.

What do you understand by this? Specifically what does this mean in relation to the existence of God? Are we expected to follow God's commandment based on the belief that He exists, or should a Christian follow God based on a knowledge that He exists?

Neither. It means to keep going even when its difficult to keep going. That's faith. He's not talking about belief or the existence of God.

What Paul is doing in chapters 4 through 6 is claiming to be a spiritual father of the Corinthians, and he is alluding frequently to the march of Israel through the wilderness. He is adopting them as children, and he wants them to adopt him back. The subject of a 'Veil' comes up, because he is explaining that his gospel is hidden from those who are perishing (as many Israelites died in the wilderness). The Corinthians sufferings are likened to a journey through the wilderness. Paul speaks using the symbols of the Tabernacle, the Temple and the Veil over Moses face, but Paul says his own face has no veil, so he's like a Moses but without a veil. Chapter 6 talks about how they "Put no stumbling block in anyone's path..." which is a reference to laws about blindness. Its another way of claiming to not be wearing a veil. So, while you read these three chapters Paul expects you to be envisioning the trek through the wilderness. He makes the assumption that you have celebrated Passover before, so that you know what he's talking about, and he makes this appeal to you "We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also."

 

[lovemuffin]

"Sight" is a primary metaphor for knowledge, so I think you're right that what is being contrasted is faith and knowledge. But I think it would be injecting too much of a modern perspective, especially one conditioned by arguments about theism and atheism, to think that the object of faith or knowledge being spoken about is primarily the question of the existence of God. For most of the people reading Paul's epistles in the 1st century, the existence of a God, or Gods, or Divinity in some form or other was just obvious (whether true or not). I believe the only time Paul remarks upon the idea of an argument for the existence of God is in Romans 1, in which he asserts that at least the existence of the Divine is "clearly seen", even if what is seen clearly is its "invisible qualities".

There's an interesting apparent tension there between what is invisible and yet clearly seen, and I think it runs through a lot of what the N.T. says theologically. See for example 1 Cor 13, with its description of love including an interjection about knowledge: "for now we see as in a mirror, in enigmas", or in the way John's epistle reiterates that no one has ever seen God, but that Christ reveals Him. Or even in the Beatitudes where the pure in heart shall see God. In all cases, it's not so much a question of "faith" meaning an assent to the proposition that God exists, but a realization that the true nature of the Divine is hidden, mysterious, enigmatic. That to live in the fullness of the presence of that Divinity (in Christ, Paul would say) is not a matter of a perfect intellectual knowledge, but of a cultivation of a virtuous love, as both 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4:12 remind us. Here also in 2 corinthians the exhortation is to walk in that same path, "so that what is mortal may be swallowed up in life"

 

[Thanda]

Neither. It means to keep going even when its difficult to keep going. That's faith. He's not talking about belief or the existence of God.

What Paul is doing in chapters 4 through 6 is claiming to be a spiritual father of the Corinthians, and he is alluding frequently to the march of Israel through the wilderness. He is adopting them as children, and he wants them to adopt him back. The subject of a 'Veil' comes up, because he is explaining that his gospel is hidden from those who are perishing (as many Israelites died in the wilderness). The Corinthians sufferings are likened to a journey through the wilderness. Paul speaks using the symbols of the Tabernacle, the Temple and the Veil over Moses face, but Paul says his own face has no veil, so he's like a Moses but without a veil. Chapter 6 talks about how they "Put no stumbling block in anyone's path..." which is a reference to laws about blindness. Its another way of claiming to not be wearing a veil. So, while you read these three chapters Paul expects you to be envisioning the trek through the wilderness. He makes the assumption that you have celebrated Passover before, so that you know what he's talking about, and he makes this appeal to you "We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also."

Thanks for the reponse and I get you.

I think what I am trying to get at whether the gospel requires us to merely believe that there is a God instead of knowing. To use the children of Israel as an example you will remember that God actually wanted to reveal himself to the children of Israel (not for them to see him though since they were not yet sanctified). So the children of Israel needing to have faith only meant that they had to trust in God's wisdom and the wisdom of his counsels and commandments. But they did not need to have faith that there was a God. They knew.

So the question is what should be the foundation of a true faith in God. Should it be a mere belief that there is a God or should one be sure that there He is there and only use your faith to trust in His commandments?

 

[JayJayDee]

Thanks for the reponse and I get you.

I think what I am trying to get at whether the gospel requires us to merely believe that there is a God instead of knowing. To use the children of Israel as an example you will remember that God actually wanted to reveal himself to the children of Israel (not for them to see him though since they were not yet sanctified). So the children of Israel needing to have faith only meant that they had to trust in God's wisdom and the wisdom of his counsels and commandments. But they did not need to have faith that there was a God. They knew.

So the question is what should be the foundation of a true faith in God. Should it be a mere belief that there is a God or should one be sure that there He is there and only use your faith to trust in His commandments?

This is Paul's definition...... "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen." (Heb 11:1)

Faith is believing in spite of what you cannot prove....even in spite of supposed evidence to the contrary, like evolution. The amassing of "evidence" for evolution is based on biased interpretations of their specimens. They want to reach a desired conclusion, so they make grand assumptions about what "might have" or "could have" taken place. They have no real evidence, but in spite of that, they have a huge groundswell of support by like minded academics who have devout followers......not unlike religion. Their "evidence" is no proof at all, but they believe because of what is told to them.

Creation itself is a strong testimony for God's existence. The interactive systems in nature cannot be the product of blind chance. But humans demand to see "proof" of things with their own eyes.
In times past, God catered to this desire. Miracles were performed through God's prophet Moses to convince Israel that God was delivering them from Egypt and supporting them through their time in the wilderness. There is no evidence that the miracles continued however. It was for a time and it served a purpose.

In the first century, when Jesus came to present himself as Messiah, God gave him supernatural abilities so as to convince the people that he had God's backing. The apostles were also granted these miraculous abilities, but again, they were not to last. Why? Because people become inured to these things. The majority of Jews rejected Jesus in spite of this very powerful proof. Besides, tricks can be mimicked by the devil, causing confusion. The proof of a true disciple of Christ was to be something the devil could not fake.

Paul mentioned the "gifts" and called 'belief based on seeing theses things', "the traits of a child".

"But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Cor 13:8-13)

Before completion of the Christian scriptures, there was a hazy outline of things, but once the complete word of God became available, then Christians would know the truth accurately. This didn't mean that all would read it accurately, any more than the Jews read their scriptures accurately. Those who are teachers of God's word are "doubly accountable" before God to teach its truth accurately. The Jews failed to do this...Christendom has likewise failed to convey Jesus' teachings accurately to their flocks, fracturing Christianity into bickering sects, like Judaism before it. The same enemy of God is responsible for both defections.

If you notice Paul's words at the end of that scripture, you will see what identifies Christ's true disciples...."faith, hope and love". Those who are true to God's word enjoy these most important aspects of Christian truth. Their faith in God's promises is unshakable...their hope for the future is solid....and their love for God and for one another is constant and evident in their conduct and attitudes. There is no room for unbelief or confusion ....hopelessness......or hatred for anyone in their hearts. Like Paul and the other apostles, they are making the preaching of God's kingdom the number one priority in their lives. (1 Cor 9:16, 23)

"Faith is not the possession of all people".......and you can't order it by the truckload. (2 Thess 3:2) Faith is like a wall...built one solid brick at a time. It comes from study of God's word and confidence in God's ability to guide and direct receptive hearts. (John 6:44)

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thanks for the reponse and I get you.

I think what I am trying to get at whether the gospel requires us to merely believe that there is a God instead of knowing. To use the children of Israel as an example you will remember that God actually wanted to reveal himself to the children of Israel (not for them to see him though since they were not yet sanctified). So the children of Israel needing to have faith only meant that they had to trust in God's wisdom and the wisdom of his counsels and commandments. But they did not need to have faith that there was a God. They knew.

Clearly the journey isn't one in which people doubt whether there is a God or not.

So the question is what should be the foundation of a true faith in God. Should it be a mere belief that there is a God or should one be sure that there He is there and only use your faith to trust in His commandments?

We often don't understand our own thoughts. The only way to know what we believe is how we act. Suppose that I could hypnotize you to always think you were a believer but to never help anyone in need. You would be the opposite of what you thought. You would think you believed and in a sense you would but not in the sense that mattered.

 

[Pegg]

In 2 Corithians 5:7 Paul speaks walking by faith and not by sight.

What do you understand by this? Specifically what does this mean in relation to the existence of God? Are we expected to follow God's commandment based on the belief that He exists, or should a Christian follow God based on a knowledge that He exists?

the biblical 'faith' is actually a belief based on knowledge. It has been very wrongly reinterpreted to mean belief without knowledge or evidence.... but that interpretation couldnt be further from the truth.

When God brought Israel out of Egypt, he didnt just send Moses and expect the Israelites to believe Moses based only on his word. He actually gave Moses the physical evidence needed to convince the Israelites that God had sent him. The powerful works demonstrated by Moses were the evidence which instilled 'faith' in the Israelites. It was the physical evidence that gave them the courage to follow moses.

And so when Paul speaks of 'walking by faith' he says
2Cor 5:7 for we are walking by faith, not by sight. 8 But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.+ 9 So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him.

Walking by faith can be described as living for the future now. Ie, God has promised something, we know he can fulfill his promises because of his past actions, we know the time will come when he will act again, we therefore live our life in harmony with that future promise.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Some people would say that walking by faith means becoming the remnant of the faithful by properly dividing the word of truth, so they would say that belief is based upon certainty through a solid understanding of the workings of scripture verses -- enabled of course by the miraculous assistance of the Holy Spirit which is found in scripture. I would disagree with that also. Suppose all of the people who think they believe correctly are like a mountain, and only a few sincere people at the top of that mountain are the remnant. Suppose these are the ones walking in faith, that they are the ones on the narrow path, and everyone else without understanding are on the broad path leading to destruction. That is what some people seem to say, and I disagree with that on numerous points. I don't think that is a strawman representation either but a real representation of what many have said to me. Their focus is on Bible scripture at all times, always upon dedication to reading scripture repeatedly and searching for things in it. They certainly do represent a small minority, and the very best and most skilled certainly are rare. Its far more common for people to become tangled and lost in such endeavors than for them to become one of the few. So then most turn ultimately to assistance from other people, because the Bible is either too hard, too complicated or takes too long to study. Yet those who never turn to anyone for help seem to become hermits with various extremely divergent interpretations, and worst of all some fall like flies into the webs of con artists who pretend to have superior Biblical knowledge, which is unfortunately very easy and only requires a silver tongue.

 

[Johnlove]

Jesus has had me walk in faith of him for the last forty some years.


After giving Jesus my life he has decided how I was to live my life. I do as Jesus tells me to do, at all times.


God’s will has been my will ever day.


If I am sick it is Jesus whom is asked what needs to be done. For the last ten years Jesus has taken care of my health, even when it seemed that I was going blind, and dying from cancer.


Having faith in God/Jesus is to me trusting him for everything that I need.


Jesus said not to store up possessions for one’s future. Trusting Jesus to take care of one’s needs in the future, takes faith.


Jesus said love one’s enemies. It takes faith to allow Jesus to determine if one should die or not.


Jesus said that if one take something from you do not try to get it back.


It takes faith to trust that Jesus will provide.

 

[Thanda]

Jesus has had me walk in faith of him for the last forty some years.


After giving Jesus my life he has decided how I was to live my life. I do as Jesus tells me to do, at all times.


God’s will has been my will ever day.


If I am sick it is Jesus whom is asked what needs to be done. For the last ten years Jesus has taken care of my health, even when it seemed that I was going blind, and dying from cancer.


Having faith in God/Jesus is to me trusting him for everything that I need.


Jesus said not to store up possessions for one’s future. Trusting Jesus to take care of one’s needs in the future, takes faith.


Jesus said love one’s enemies. It takes faith to allow Jesus to determine if one should die or not.


Jesus said that if one take something from you do not try to get it back.


It takes faith to trust that Jesus will provide.

John, you exercise faith in the things God commands. This is good to hear. But what makes you willing to do so. More especially in the beginning, what made you willing to trust God with your life? And what nade you sure that God was the God of Jesus and not some other God of some other religion: was it something you specifically asked God: who He is and that the correct religion is?

 

[Thanda]

Some people would say that walking by faith means becoming the remnant of the faithful by properly dividing the word of truth, so they would say that belief is based upon certainty through a solid understanding of the workings of scripture verses -- enabled of course by the miraculous assistance of the Holy Spirit which is found in scripture. I would disagree with that also. Suppose all of the people who think they believe correctly are like a mountain, and only a few sincere people at the top of that mountain are the remnant. Suppose these are the ones walking in faith, that they are the ones on the narrow path, and everyone else without understanding are on the broad path leading to destruction. That is what some people seem to say, and I disagree with that on numerous points. I don't think that is a strawman representation either but a real representation of what many have said to me. Their focus is on Bible scripture at all times, always upon dedication to reading scripture repeatedly and searching for things in it. They certainly do represent a small minority, and the very best and most skilled certainly are rare. Its far more common for people to become tangled and lost in such endeavors than for them to become one of the few. So then most turn ultimately to assistance from other people, because the Bible is either too hard, too complicated or takes too long to study. Yet those who never turn to anyone for help seem to become hermits with various extremely divergent interpretations, and worst of all some fall like flies into the webs of con artists who pretend to have superior Biblical knowledge, which is unfortunately very easy and only requires a silver tongue.

This is precisely the problem I see in the world. You cannot figure out the existence of God by reading the scriptures or by watching nature. Because there are many "Holy" books in the world and there are many explanations for how the world came to being. And even if someone did figure out that on the balance of probabilities it is likely that there is a God: the question is would that be a sufficiently strong foundation for true and abiding faith in God? Secondly, having established that there is a God, what proof would there be that this God is the God of Christ and not some other God.

What I am getting at is that it seems to me that in order to have true faith in God there are somethings you have know. You have to know that God lives. You have to know that he is the God of Jesus Christ. You have to know the path he would like you to follow and the commandments he expects you to keep. These things I believe you have to know not merely believe. The believing part comes with having the faith that all things will work out as you do whatever you know God has commanded you to do.

Now this is not preached in many churches because I believe many teachers of the gospel themselves do not know God. In many churches a person qualifies to be a pastor by passing some theology or bible study class. Many pastors are called doctor. This actually remind of the pharisees and sadducees is Jesus day. Christ also accused them of not knowing God and of loving titles and greetings on the street above the honour of God. And these pastors tell the people that the will pray for and give them answers for their lives when Christ himself never once told people he would pray in their stead to receive answers for their personal lives. Instead he taught people how to pray for themselves. He told people that they didn't need to believe in him on his own merits. He told them to believe in God and that if they had a relationship with God they would know he has been sent by God. But the pastors of today expect people to live their lives in uncertainty and doubt only keeping them in line by telling them of hell or promising them riches.

 

[Johnlove]

John, you exercise faith in the things God commands. This is good to hear. But what makes you willing to do so. More especially in the beginning, what made you willing to trust God with your life? And what nade you sure that God was the God of Jesus and not some other God of some other religion: was it something you specifically asked God: who He is and that the correct religion is?

From a young child I knew Jesus was God. How I knew that is beyond my understanding.


Jesus began to confirm my understanding at a very early age.


First because my older brother and I had a physical problem that caused us to pee our beds at night. My step mother made such a fuss, and berated me so much every time it happened.


So I told Jesus that if he would stop me from peeing my bed, I would say my night prays ever night.


I never peed my bed again, but my four year older brother still peed his bed.


A few years later while praying alone in my attic bedroom, an arm came through the ceiling and touched me. I knew it was God that did that.


Then years later while praying with my wife, Jesus spoke to us telling me how much he loved me. He said he loved me, over and over again for what seemed like a half hour. Then Jesus told me to open my heart and let his light shine.


The room we were in filled up with a beautiful odor, which only I smelled.


After that Jesus started calling me into his ministry. I did not say yes to his call for two years. But during these two years Jesus had me walk in a number of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.


Finally Jesus healed my child who was born blind. I accepted Jesus call after that.


The real proof that it is Jesus who I follow is the good fruit produced. Jesus has kept me sin free for over forty years.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is precisely the problem I see in the world. You cannot figure out the existence of God by reading the scriptures or by watching nature. Because there are many "Holy" books in the world and there are many explanations for how the world came to being. And even if someone did figure out that on the balance of probabilities it is likely that there is a God: the question is would that be a sufficiently strong foundation for true and abiding faith in God? Secondly, having established that there is a God, what proof would there be that this God is the God of Christ and not some other God.

This bit here is the part that points out there is a paradox to many approaches today involving the intensive reliance upon scriptures for absolutely everything. You said "This is precisely the problem I see in the world. You cannot figure out the existence of God by reading the scriptures or by watching nature." yet Paul the Apostle says "...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (Romans 1:19-20) So clearly knowledge of God according to Paul comes through the observance of nature. One big problem, as you have pointed out, is that people too often ignore that or think its just poetic. Pure Bible studying approaches are inconsistent, lacking fundamentals. To begin with people existed long before scripture, so people are the first scripture. Of all those people who claim to make great expositions of the nature of God using scripture I've never met one who could make the same points based only upon nature, so their claims are empty as the claims of a noob who has just read the instructions to play a video game and thinks he is ready to give advice about it. If I tell you I can prove God from the pages of a book or prove God's attributes from a book, don't believe it.

What I am getting at is that it seems to me that in order to have true faith in God there are somethings you have know. You have to know that God lives. You have to know that he is the God of Jesus Christ. You have to know the path he would like you to follow and the commandments he expects you to keep. These things I believe you have to know not merely believe. The believing part comes with having the faith that all things will work out as you do whatever you know God has commanded you to do.

Great points. You have to have a reason, so you have to start at the fundamentals. What does nature tell you? Is there an over-riding principle to nature? Is there something about it? Does it suggests God to you? What kind of God? That is your basis, and everything that 'Can be known' about God, Paul says is visible in nature. Peter views the history of the Jewish nation as a search to understand what has been observed about God. He views the prophets as people who sought truths for our benefit. (I Peter 1:10-12) The prophets also were limited by what they could observe of God, and all of their sufferings were for the sake of passing it on. So if we would study prophets and scriptures, then we must not sleep through the sounds they make but think of them as astronomers pointing out constellations they found in their searches. Do we see the same constellations? Then we have understood them. What is the value of a description of a constellation that you haven't seen for yourself?

Now this is not preached in many churches because I believe many teachers of the gospel themselves do not know God. In many churches a person qualifies to be a pastor by passing some theology or bible study class.

Many have seen the games people play, and they are internally destroyed over it. Some folks keep fighting for what they know is right. Sometimes people become ministers not because they are believers themselves but because they've seen evil ministries. They just want to try and prevent some of the evils they've seen, so they throw themselves into resistance. I don't recommend anyone doing that, because they won't have the ability to fix the real cause of the problem. Some do it though. Some go into ministry, because they need an income. Discouraged people are everywhere. People know something is wrong, but all is not lost. Things are bad, but there's a lot of potential for ministries to shift gears and do a lot of good. Maybe things will improve.