What Does Revelation Mean to You?

[Windwalker]

I hear various groups speak of their beliefs as "revealed truth". But what exactly does that mean? What are its limits? What are its sources? What are its forms? Who decides what is, or isn't, and how, by what process? What are its effects? How is it different from other knowledge? Is it natural, or supernatural? And so on.

I have thoughts of my own but I'd like to open up the floor for a discussion of the various points of view on this, and the reasons behind why we view them this way.

 

[Amechania]

Don't mean diddly to me. So and so says something or other about such and such. So what? I only know what happens to me. I only know about the people I encounter.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

All truth is revealed truth. We just tend to be better sometimes at tracing it back to an understandable source.

 

[Pegg]

to me it means to understand or discern spiritual matters. Understanding can only come from God himself by the operation of his holy spirit. There are several verses in the bible which show that if God did not want someone to understand, he could close their mind to understanding. And if he wants someone to understand, he opens their mind.

It was said that Jesus was a: Luke 2:32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.”

 

[idav]

Revelation is having a degree of the omniscience that naturally exists. We are normally limited as creatures but it resides within everything. Thats my take anyway.

 

[Windwalker]

to me it means to understand or discern spiritual matters.

When people call the Bible the revealed word of God, is this the limit of revelation? Or is an opening of spiritual discernment what is able to see what is revealed in everything, not just one collection of books codified in a church council?

Understanding can only come from God himself by the operation of his holy spirit.

In a sense of the word this would be accurate since in order to be spiritually discerning one would need to be spiritually aware. And since God is Spirit, one who sees the world spiritually would be seeing the world through the eyes of God. When one opens to their spiritual nature, they are opening to God.

There are several verses in the bible which show that if God did not want someone to understand, he could close their mind to understanding.

That very bizarre, if one reads that literally. A contradiction of scripture as well since it says "God is not willing that any should perish", yet if God is literally blocking someone, by his will, from allowing them to see Truth, then he is more that willing to let them perish, he wills them to perish, making him unloving, uncompassionate, unforgiving, etc, etc.

Understood metaphorically however, we often times, quite often in fact, do not wish to see something that we are unprepared to see and put obstacles in front of ourselves in order to prevent ourselves from seeing it. So "God closed their minds", would be really they did not wish to see the Truth, so in effect the presence of that Truth before them, caused them to turn their faces away, to make excuses, to rationalize it, to ignore it, etc. Therefore "God", or the present Truth, "caused" them to react in self-blindness. Now, doesn't this make more sense than God actively willing someone into ignorance?

And if he wants someone to understand, he opens their mind.

And human will has nothing to do with it?

It was said that Jesus was a: Luke 2:32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.”

Okay, so Jesus revealed God to the nations. What else, and who else does?

 

[Tumah]

What type of revelation are you talking about here?

 

[Windwalker]

What type of revelation are you talking about here?

I'm referring to when various religions speak of God's revealed truth. They see their religions as "revealed" religions. Etc.

 

[Tumah]

I'm referring to when various religions speak of God's revealed truth. They see their religions as "revealed" religions. Etc.

I've never heard that phrase used by anyone besides Christians.

The only revelation I can think of in Judaism is a revelation of G-d, which is some sort of perception of the Divine.

 

[Pegg]

When people call the Bible the revealed word of God, is this the limit of revelation? Or is an opening of spiritual discernment what is able to see what is revealed in everything, not just one collection of books codified in a church council?

yes, i believe the 66 writings of the prophets and disciples of Christ are the entire sum of what God has revealed to mankind thus far. The book of revelation says that in the future during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, 'new scrolls' will be revealed to mankind.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

That very bizarre, if one reads that literally. A contradiction of scripture as well since it says "God is not willing that any should perish", yet if God is literally blocking someone, by his will, from allowing them to see Truth, then he is more that willing to let them perish, he wills them to perish, making him unloving, uncompassionate, unforgiving, etc, etc.

Matt 13:13 That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’

Understood metaphorically however, we often times, quite often in fact, do not wish to see something that we are unprepared to see and put obstacles in front of ourselves in order to prevent ourselves from seeing it. So "God closed their minds", would be really they did not wish to see the Truth, so in effect the presence of that Truth before them, caused them to turn their faces away, to make excuses, to rationalize it, to ignore it, etc. Therefore "God", or the present Truth, "caused" them to react in self-blindness. Now, doesn't this make more sense than God actively willing someone into ignorance?

I didnt say he actively wills them into ignorance. But as you said above, people choose to be unresponsive and for that reason, God lets them continue in their ignorance and false understanding. They are not willing to be taught by God, so he doesnt teach them....and if he doesnt teach them, they will never fully understand him or his purposes.

And human will has nothing to do with it?

not always.
Think of the experience of Elisha when he could see something that his attendent could not see:

2Kings 6:15 When the attendant of the man of the true God rose early and went outside, he saw that an army with horses and war chariots was surrounding the city. At once the attendant said to him: “Alas, my master! What are we to do?” 16 But he said: “Do not be afraid! For there are more who are with us than those who are with them.” 17 Then E·li′sha began to pray and say: “O Jehovah, open his eyes, please, that he may see.” Immediately Jehovah opened the attendant’s eyes and he saw, and look! the mountainous region was full of horses and war chariots of fire all around E·li′sha.

Only God could have revealed that truth to the attendant. Unless God opens a persons understanding, they will not understand. I think some key requirements to receiving understanding is humility, a fear of God and a desire to learn from him.

Okay, so Jesus revealed God to the nations. What else, and who else does?

according to Jesus:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

I would have to believe that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

People wanted an unopposed reign for their views to rule the minds of their people and others for at least 1000 years. Therefore, what is reported for Christianity above. Bahais also say that no manifestation of God will come for 800 years after Bahaullah. As Amechania said it does not mean a diddly to me.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I hear various groups speak of their beliefs as "revealed truth". But what exactly does that mean? What are its limits? What are its sources? What are its forms? Who decides what is, or isn't, and how, by what process? What are its effects?

(For starters, "revelation" is synonymous with "apocalypse," both having exactly the same meaning. BTW, unless you're referring to the book by that name or a specific divine event, it's usually better not to capitalize it.)

And to answer your question, in the case of the Baha'i Faith, our scripture consists of what was written by the Bab (its forerunner), Baha'u'llah (our Founder), or 'Abdu'l-Baha (Baha'u'llah's son and appointed successor/interpreter). All of these writings are our scriptures; nothing else is, though we also recognize scriptural works from other religious traditions, including Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and others.

Our scriptures set our standards and lay out our practices and procedures, as well as being insprational.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[loverOfTruth]

I hear various groups speak of their beliefs as "revealed truth". But what exactly does that mean? What are its limits? What are its sources? What are its forms? Who decides what is, or isn't, and how, by what process? What are its effects? How is it different from other knowledge? Is it natural, or supernatural? And so on.

I have thoughts of my own but I'd like to open up the floor for a discussion of the various points of view on this, and the reasons behind why we view them this way.

If God created us and placed us on this earth, there must be a purpose behind it. For example, look within us humans - we create something to serve us. So similarly God created us to serve/worship Him. Now, if He wants us to serve/worship Him, He must not leave us without guidance as to how to do that. Can God seriously create us for a purpose and then leave us without guidance on the most important aspect of our existence, which is our reason for being ? Any rational/logical person wouldn't think so. So that guidance is the 'Revelation'.

Here's more detail on
the need for Revelation

So here is the Islamic version as to what this Revelation is. Revelations are God's word sent to Prophets of God through Angel Gabriel as a guidance to mankind. According to Islam, Revelations by God has been conveyed to humanity throughout the history of mankind via God's messengers - all the prophets starting from Prophet Adam(PBUH) and then continuing with many other including Noah(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH), Moses(PBUH), Jesus(PBUH) and finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).
"Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (Al Qur'an 2:136)

However, as time went by everytime after the prophets left, mankind went astray from the teachings and worship of God to 'worshipping their desires'. Some of it could be due to people becoming rebellious and arrogrant or some of it could be because people started coming up with their own ideas as to how to worship God. And generations later there was no way to get back to the orginal and the same True message of God that all the messengers brought due to lack of preservation of the message. And then God sent the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with the same message confirming the previous messages. And His followers made very meticulous effort (with God's help obviously) to preserve the message for any generations to come. Just some related verses so you know what it says :
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." (Al Qur'an 33:40)

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). We did send messengers before thee amongst the religious sects of old: But never came a messenger to them but they mocked him." (Al Qur'an 15:9-11)

Now, how can you be sure that this final revelation(The Holy Qur'an) is what it claims to be (Verbatim word of God) ? Here's a thread where I discussed that in detail: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/129347-there-any-evidence-truth-islam.html

Peace.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now, if He wants us to serve/worship Him,
..

What makes him want that? Of course, you do not know Allah's mind. You do not know if Allah is sitting or standing. Does he have a throne?

 

[loverOfTruth]

What makes him want that? Of course, you do not know Allah's mind. You do not know if Allah is sitting or standing. Does he have a throne?

Because He says so in the Holy Qur'an :
“I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship.” (Quran 51:56)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Generally, revelation is thinking something up that seems so profound and true to someone that they falsely blame some kind of god for telling it to them.

 

[Nakosis]

I hear various groups speak of their beliefs as "revealed truth". But what exactly does that mean? What are its limits? What are its sources? What are its forms? Who decides what is, or isn't, and how, by what process? What are its effects? How is it different from other knowledge? Is it natural, or supernatural? And so on.

I have thoughts of my own but I'd like to open up the floor for a discussion of the various points of view on this, and the reasons behind why we view them this way.

To me it's remembering. It's recalling the truth we knew at some point but forgot. It's flashes of a dreamer experiencing the drama of a dream momentarily wakening to realize he is actually just lying in bed before falling back into the drama of the dream.

Sometimes it is the dreamer dreaming they are awake, not realizing it is still part of the dream.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

(For starters, "revelation" is synonymous with "apocalypse," both having exactly the same meaning.

That certainly isn't true in modern American English.

Nor -- I think -- is it true in any language.

 

[Mycroft]

But what exactly does that mean? .

 

[Windwalker]

Awesome!