What Does Revelation Mean to You?

[Aupmanyav]

Because He says so in the Holy Qur'an :
“I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship.” (Quran 51:56)

Hungry for adoration? Were the angels not enough?

 

[Windwalker]

If God created us and placed us on this earth, there must be a purpose behind it. For example, look within us humans - we create something to serve us.

We do? I don't. I create music, for instance, as an expression of something deep within me that just wishes to be said, without any expectation of return. In fact the greatest expressions of love, is when you are completely empty of any expectation of gain for self. It is this way when a mother births her child. Is she giving life to another so she can have a servant, like making a slave? That's not love at all, nor an expression of love. It is motivated by self-interest. It's greed, and the worst sort as it treats another as a commodity to serve yourself.

So similarly God created us to serve/worship Him.

I very much disagree with this. Do we have a natural tendency to desire to worship, in the sense of offering thankfulness for life? I believe when we are able to see the world as beauty it is a natural response. But it is as a continuation of that Love in us desiring to be expressed, not because God needs it from us. God lacks nothing. We are created out of Joy, not deficiency. And when we love in an exchange, of giver to receiver, and back again, love is fulfilled. It is about creation and joy of love, not servitude.

Now, if He wants us to serve/worship Him, He must not leave us without guidance as to how to do that.

I see the progression of if-that, than-this logic statements leading to how one views their traditions sacred writings to fit that model. In my case the premise laid out doesn't fit my experience, so scripture can never been understood this way by me. For myself, I view all scripture as an expression of the human experience in searching for itself in reaching out to understand God. Some can be quite inspired, like music from the soul can, and others are reflections of their humanness searching for itself, looking for God to fit their cultural experiences, conflating the one into the other, using the culture as a means to see God. Such as saying we are created to be a servant of God.

Can God seriously create us for a purpose and then leave us without guidance on the most important aspect of our existence, which is our reason for being ? Any rational/logical person wouldn't think so. So that guidance is the 'Revelation'.

I see your logic, but the premise is lost on me. So in my experience revelation is synonymous with illumination. It is ongoing and progressive, not just one thing someone said onetime and chiseled the words into stone, fixed and static. That's not what life itself is. Life is a constant unfolding into new modes of being. It is fluid and dynamic. And therefore Truth is a matter of hearing and seeing with a mind that is open and receptive, not one that is busy in search of answers for itself to be "told" what is truth. This is a distraction for ourselves to seek God in this way, to be told what is truth.

I made the comment in another thread that if God needs to look a certain way for us, then we will never see God. This means we are looking for God to fit into our ideas about God, and since God is beyond any mental picture we can see, all we will ever see is at best our own idea, and not God. The atheist to me is one who has come to see that that God does not exist. And they are right, but have not yet come to understand that this realization opens the door to seeing, not closes it. But that's another discussion.

When we are open, when we are receptive, the Truth emerges in every moment to us. And that emergence, that unfolding of that Light to our minds is to me revelation. The Truth is revealed. But it can never be grasped. It can never be held. It can only be expressed in every moment, not held or contained in words.

 

[2ndpillar]

I hear various groups speak of their beliefs as "revealed truth". But what exactly does that mean? What are its limits? What are its sources? What are its forms? Who decides what is, or isn't, and how, by what process? What are its effects? How is it different from other knowledge? Is it natural, or supernatural? And so on.

I have thoughts of my own but I'd like to open up the floor for a discussion of the various points of view on this, and the reasons behind why we view them this way.

Dear windwalker,
Everything hidden will be revealed (Mt 10:26). Daniel 12:9,"these words are hidden and will be revealed at the "end time".

For answers, we are now in the "end of the age", and there is no longer any barrier. You simply have to seek what you want to know.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Hungry for adoration? Were the angels not enough?

Angels do not have free will and hence cannot disobey God. Humans can reach levels higher than Angels and closer to God through obeying/worshiping Him by choice. Ultimately, God wants us to reach a level higher than the angels through a variety of good deeds on earth while acknowledging God as the Creator. That is worship. Hence, every good thing a believer does obeying God while acknowledging God is an act of worship. For example, taking care of an orphan, helping the poor etc.

 

[loverOfTruth]

We do? I don't. I create music, for instance, as an expression of something deep within me that just wishes to be said,
without any expectation of return.

That is not true. You do create music to satisfy your yearning to hear your inner expression and to soothe your heart. In fact, everything we humans create serves some purpose and that's probably why the saying 'Necessity is the mother of Invention'.

In fact the greatest expressions of love, is when you are completely empty of any expectation of gain for self. It is this way when a mother births her child. Is she giving life to another so she can have a servant, like making a slave? That's not love at all, nor an expression of love. It is motivated by self-interest. It's greed, and the worst sort as it treats another as a commodity to serve yourself.

No, parents don't have children to have a 'slave' but they do have children to serve some purpose - otherwise, no one would go through the hassle of raising kids. We do crave for love, to gain ownership of that love, to have company etc. So that does have purpose as well.

However, having a baby and creating something is not the same - you cannot compare them the same way.

As I have stated to the other poster above, Angels do not have free will and hence cannot disobey God. Humans can reach levels higher than Angels and closer to God through obeying/worshiping Him by choice. Ultimately, God wants us to reach a level higher than the angels through a variety of good deeds on earth while acknowledging God as the Creator. That is worship. Hence, every good thing a believer does obeying God while acknowledging God is an act of worship. For example, taking care of an orphan, helping the poor etc.

Furthermore, just like a mother would provide guidance to discipline her child with regulations and consequences because she loves her child very much and she would like to see her child to be in the best of manners, our creator knows that human beings do transgress their limits and they need to be constrained through punishments and deterrence. Otherwise, there would be pure chaos and lawlessness in the world. Hence, the worship.

I very much disagree with this. Do we have a natural tendency to desire to worship, in the sense of offering thankfulness for life? I believe when we are able to see the world as beauty it is a natural response. But it is as a continuation of that Love in us desiring to be expressed, not because God needs it from us. God lacks nothing. We are created out of Joy, not deficiency. And when we love in an exchange, of giver to receiver, and back again, love is fulfilled. It is about creation and joy of love, not servitude.

As I have explained above, it is about both. One would be unmanageable and fail without the other.

I see the progression of if-that, than-this logic statements leading to how one views their traditions sacred writings to fit that model. In my case the premise laid out doesn't fit my experience, so scripture can never been understood this way by me. For myself, I view all scripture as an expression of the human experience in searching for itself in reaching out to understand God. Some can be quite inspired, like music from the soul can, and others are reflections of their humanness searching for itself, looking for God to fit their cultural experiences, conflating the one into the other, using the culture as a means to see God. Such as saying we are created to be a servant of God.

You think that way because that's what you are used to and that's how most scriptures are - that is written by humans. That is not true for the Revelation of Islam - the Holy Qur'an, as that is the Verbatim word of God, proof of which is in the link to the other thread I have given earlier.

I see your logic, but the premise is lost on me. So in my experience revelation is synonymous with illumination. It is ongoing and progressive, not just one thing someone said onetime and chiseled the words into stone, fixed and static. That's not what life itself is. Life is a constant unfolding into new modes of being. It is fluid and dynamic. And therefore Truth is a matter of hearing and seeing with a mind that is open and receptive, not one that is busy in search of answers for itself to be "told" what is truth. This is a distraction for ourselves to seek God in this way, to be told what is truth.

Now you are talking about a different kind of Revelation. We also believe in that. We believe that even though we won't be receiving direct revelation from God anymore after the Holy Qur'an. However, there are other means through which you can receive Spiritual Guidance. For example, through overwhelming feeling about something or through dreams etc. In fact, we have a prayer called the prayer of 'Decision Making'. If you are in a dilemma regarding some major decisions in life, you could do the prayer before you go to bed. And it could have three different outcomes - 1) you could actually see an answer in your dream, 2) you could see some positive signs in the days to come or 3) without any sign, whatever your heart chooses ends up being the right decision for you. I have personally experienced all 3 in my life.

I made the comment in another thread that if God needs to look a certain way for us, then we will never see God. This means we are looking for God to fit into our ideas about God, and since God is beyond any mental picture we can see, all we will ever see is at best our own idea, and not God. The atheist to me is one who has come to see that that God does not exist. And they are right, but have not yet come to understand that this realization opens the door to seeing, not closes it. But that's another discussion.

Once again that's when you are not sure that God has sent messages to humans and you have the right message preserved exactly as it came. Read the Qur'an and you'll know what I am talking about. Here's how God himself describes who He is :

"There is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees all things." (Al-Qur'an 42:11)

"Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)." (Al-Qur'an 2:255)

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."
(Al-Qur'an 112:1-4)

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind):If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid."
(Al-Qur'an 18:109)

When we are open, when we are receptive, the Truth emerges in every moment to us. And that emergence, that unfolding of that Light to our minds is to me revelation. The Truth is revealed. But it can never be grasped. It can never be held. It can only be expressed in every moment, not held or contained in words.

Truth is clear from falsehood and the signs for it are all over the place. Yet to follow that Truth you need divine guidance, and that is the Revelation.

"It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and account [of time]. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know" (Al Qur'an 10:5)

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of God -Who believe in the unseen ... " (Al Qur'an 2:2-3)

Peace.

 

[Windwalker]

That is not true. You do create music to satisfy your yearning to hear your inner expression and to soothe your heart. In fact, everything we humans create serves some purpose and that's probably why the saying 'Necessity is the mother of Invention'.

Then in this case God creates us to serve himself. Not that we "need" to serve him, but to satisfy himself in creation of everything. That is very different than saying we are created to be his servants. Not the same at all, actually.

So yes, I create music to satisfy a desire, an unrestrainable urge to create. And so God creates of this desire to fulfill himself.

No, parents don't have children to have a 'slave' but they do have children to serve some purpose - otherwise, no one would go through the hassle of raising kids. We do crave for love, to gain ownership of that love, to have company etc. So that does have purpose as well.

That may be true, but it is an immature love. I can tell you absolutely that to "gain ownership of love", is not not know what love truly is. Love is free, and can never be bottled, owned, possessed, obtained, etc. Love is known when love is expressed, and love is expressed in not seeking for yourself. The only seeking you do is to love for love's sake alone.

I think to see God as creating us because he "needs" our loves is highly anthropomorphic, and a projection of how we may be currently operating at our stage of growth. In fact, that is very true of how people understand God. They project themselves onto God in seeking to understand what and who God is.

However, having a baby and creating something is not the same - you cannot compare them the same way.

Why can't I? Having a baby is, or least in the ideal sense, a selfless act. It is a compulsion to sacrifice yourself for the sake of another. As Jesus said well, "greater love has no [one] than to lay down their life for another". The reward is becoming love itself, in yourself. Not for your own gain in the sense of feeling good about your accomplishments, boosting your self-esteem and whatnot, but in becoming true. In becoming Light. In becoming Love. Your true Self. And that is only known when you cease to seek for yourself.

Furthermore, just like a mother would provide guidance to discipline her child with regulations and consequences because she loves her child very much and she would like to see her child to be in the best of manners, our creator knows that human beings do transgress their limits and they need to be constrained through punishments and deterrence. Otherwise, there would be pure chaos and lawlessness in the world. Hence, the worship.

But at a certain stage in your life, as you grew up, I hope your parents quit sending you to your room, spanking you, taking away privileges, grounding you, and all these sorts of things a parent does to an immature child who can only understand rules laid down and enforced because they are not old enough yet to act maturely on their own. But as we become adults, we learn how to integrate these things as principles in our lives, as we self-govern.

If a parent never allows their child to self-govern, then the child will remain stunted, immature, and never fully an adult. How is it then you believe God would keep applying rules like this to adults? Would it be healthy for them? I don't believe it is spiritually healthy to always be dependent another to tell you what to do and how to act. Apply these things to a child who isn't of age yet to know better, then ease them and let the young adults become mature.

You think that way because that's what you are used to and that's how most scriptures are - that is written by humans. That is not true for the Revelation of Islam - the Holy Qur'an, as that is the Verbatim word of God, proof of which is in the link to the other thread I have given earlier.

No I think that way because I've done a considerable amount of study and research and reflection upon these things, plus a committed spiritual growth path which helps me see these things in a much clearer light. Each of the Abrahamic religions claims this exact same thing. Each one says they are the only ones who have the true scriptures. etc. This is reflective of themselves and where they are at in how they need to frame the world for themselves. But within each of these traditions you have those who have a far more "relaxed" view on these matters than a "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!" mentality.

There is no such thing as a "Verbatim word of God". That's simply a human idea that others teach, regardless of who they are. People speak the truth, as how they see it. All of them. And then we create mythologies about them to make their words somehow "authoritative". They were as much on their path as I am on mine, and you are on yours. No one is infallible. Infallibilty is a mythology created for the sake of bolstering beliefs for those that need to lean upon them. At a certain point, those belief structures are no longer necessary and in fact become a hindrance.

Now you are talking about a different kind of Revelation. We also believe in that. We believe that even though we won't be receiving direct revelation from God anymore after the Holy Qur'an. However, there are other means through which you can receive Spiritual Guidance. For example, through overwhelming feeling about something or through dreams etc. In fact, we have a prayer called the prayer of 'Decision Making'. If you are in a dilemma regarding some major decisions in life, you could do the prayer before you go to bed. And it could have three different outcomes - 1) you could actually see an answer in your dream, 2) you could see some positive signs in the days to come or 3) without any sign, whatever your heart chooses ends up being the right decision for you. I have personally experienced all 3 in my life.

This is a type of meditation practice, and it holds true for anyone who does this regardless if they are praying to God or not. It's how the subconscious mind works. Is that a miracle? Well, all of life is.

But this sort of revelation goes much deeper than this. It goes to the point of seeing a living luminosity in all things, and understanding of mind that is grounded and centered and timeless. All things are revealed. You become omniscient. And this I have experienced. But this does not mean you know tonight's winner lottery ticket number, or how to fly a space ship, or some such foolish notion. Is it seeing the Truth of everything, which is not a propositional truth, but the nature and identity of everything. That sort of revelation does not write words in a book as a "verbatim dictation" of a supernatural being, but rather they are words that speak Truth from that Heart, through our own heart and mind and soul. Not as infallible, but as True. There is a difference.

Once again that's when you are not sure that God has sent messages to humans and you have the right message preserved exactly as it came. Read the Qur'an and you'll know what I am talking about. Here's how God himself describes who He is :

The Christian New Testament can be read this way too. I do not view any such teachings as authoritative over all others. I simply do not need to understanding these things this way. Each person interprets God through the framework their current worldviews support for them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For answers, we are now in the "end of the age", and there is no longer any barrier. You simply have to seek what you want to know.

Does 'end of the age' mean apocalypse? When would it happen?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ultimately, God wants us to reach a level higher than the angels through a variety of good deeds on earth while acknowledging God as the Creator.

Why did he not create us better than angels in the first place? Why did he create or allow Iblis to stray and create havoc among men?

 

[BruceDLimber]

That certainly isn't true in modern American English.

Check any good dictionary, and you'll discover it is indeed the case!


Bruce

 

[Windwalker]

Check any good dictionary, and you'll discover it is indeed the case!


Bruce

This is false. Revelation is not synonymous with apocalypse. The book of the Revelation of St. John the Divine, however speaks of apocolypse. But the word revelation used in a religious context means to expose, uncover, reveal, etc, anything of divine origin. This may or may not be apolocypic. The "Revelation of Jesus" is that God is love, for instance.

Here, here's a quick reference to all this in Wiki which will be well worth your time reading to get on page with the rest of the religious world: Revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Check any good dictionary, and you'll discover it is indeed the case!

I checked. You're mistaken.

But it doesn't matter. Dictionaries don't control meanings. People do.

 

[Windwalker]

I checked. You're mistaken.

But it doesn't matter. Dictionaries don't control meanings. People do.

That is certainly correct. I've never heard anyone until now say that revelation means apocalyptic doom. "Say, I just had a revelation about the upcoming concert this weekend!", he said to his friend. "What!!??, you mean the end of the world is going to happen at the Stones concert!!??," she replied in a state of panic! :sorry1: Failure to communicate.

 

[look3467]

What Does Revelation Mean to You?>>>Windwalker

'REVELATION" the word means the reveling of a hidden secret or mystery.

The Book of Revelation, however is a dedicated story in code about the purpose, sufferings, the trials, the conquering and the victory of a second type of ADAM.

All took place in the life of Jesus leading up to cross, where the former (spiritual)conditions of creation were reversed from death to life.

Evident by the following words: Joh_13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Jesus is talking about His crucifixion and the time after, His resurrection when all that was, is now changed.

While He walked, the end was near. The time of troubles was His to experience. He is the one, if He was to save mankind, had to endure to the end.

Had He not, nothing would have changed in our behalf.

The very first verse in the book of Revelation states : Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ....

Most befitting that chapter and verse both have a one? You ever wondered why?

Blessings, AJ

 

[BruceDLimber]

Revelation is not synonymous with apocalypse. But the word revelation used in a religious context means to expose, uncover, reveal, etc., anything of divine origin. This may or may not be apolocypic.

On the contrary:

That is EXACTLY what the word "apocalpyse" means--PRECISELY THE SAME MEANINGS as "revelation!"

Once again, look up the word "apocalypse" and note its original meaning.

And note I didn't include the added term "doom" which someone else mentioned.


Bruce

 

[Windwalker]

On the contrary:

That is EXACTLY what the word "apocalpyse" means--PRECISELY THE SAME MEANINGS as "revelation!"

Once again, look up the word "apocalypse" and note its original meaning.

And note I didn't include the added term "doom" which someone else mentioned.


Bruce

Alright, fair enough. However, it's original meaning is not what people think of when they hear the word apocalypse. It's not used today to denote revelation of any kind. It's used to denote the end of the world and disaster of epic proportions.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Alright, fair enough. However, it's original meaning is not what people think of when they hear the word apocalypse. It's not used today to denote revelation of any kind....

Oh, fear not:

SOME of us are well aware of its original meaning (and derivation) and use it to mean EXACTLY that!

(I should refer you to Riggs' Apocalypse Unsealed as an excellent example.)


Bruce

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

SOME of us are well aware of its original meaning (and derivation) and use it to mean EXACTLY that!

Then you can expect to be misunderstood everywhere you go.

 

[Windwalker]

Then you can expect to be misunderstood everywhere you go.

True. Case in point.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

True. Case in point.

It's a curious outlook. I wonder if he uses all of his words in their 'original' meanings rather than their current meanings.