What does the fossil record say?

[BIG D]

There is plenty enough uncertainty for anyone to maintain the fossil record is not convincing. The foundation of evolution is also very imaginitive. Have any of you helped the researcher that reckons Ardi is just another ape? May be he missed some bone diagrams and research. There is no point convincing a creationist. There is obviously more to it than your information. These researchers eagerly await your critique and advice.

Perhaps you can enlighten these credentialed researchers on their phylogeny discussions about birds.

Wiki “origin of Birds”.
Archaeopteryx has historically been considered the first bird, or Urvogel. Although newer fossil discoveries eliminated the gap between theropods and Archaeopteryx, as well as the gap between Archaeopteryx and modern birds, phylogenetic taxonomists, in keeping with tradition, almost always use Archaeopteryx as a specifier to help define Aves.[49][50] Aves has more rarely been defined as a crown group consisting only of modern birds.[31] Nearly all palaeontologists regard birds as coelurosaurian theropod dinosaurs.[14] Within Coelurosauria, multiple cladistic analyses have found support for a clade named Maniraptora, consisting of therizinosauroids, oviraptorosaurs, troodontids, dromaeosaurids, and birds.[32][33][51] Of these, dromaeosaurids and troodontids are usually united in the clade Deinonychosauria, which is a sister group to birds (together forming the node-clade Eumaniraptora) within the stem-clade Paraves.[32][52]
Other studies have proposed alternative phylogenies in which certain groups of dinosaurs that are usually considered non-avian are suggested to have evolved from avian ancestors. For example, a 2002 analysis found oviraptorosaurs to be basal avians.[53] Alvarezsaurids, known from Asia and the Americas, have been variously classified as basal maniraptorans,[32][33][54][55] paravians,[51] the sister taxon of ornithomimosaurs,[56] as well as specialized early birds.[57][58] The genus Rahonavis, originally described as an early bird,[59] has been identified as a non-avian dromaeosaurid in several studies.[52][60] Dromaeosaurids and troodontids themselves have also been suggested to lie within Aves rather than just outside it.[61][62]

OR

Wiki “Human Evolution”..do please inform ‘some scientists’ on what’s what..they may have missed something.

H. habilis
Homo habilis lived from about 2.4 to 1.4 Ma. Homo habilis, the first species of the genus Homo, evolved in South and East Africa in the late Pliocene or early Pleistocene, 2.5–2 Ma, when it diverged from the Australopithecines. Homo habilis had smaller molars and larger brains than the Australopithecines, and made tools from stone and perhaps animal bones. One of the first known hominids, it was nicknamed 'handy man' by its discoverer, Louis Leakey due to its association with stone tools. Some scientists have proposed moving this species out of Homo and into Australopithecus due to the morphology of its skeleton being more adapted to living on trees rather than to moving on two legs like Homo sapiens.[20]


I could go on and on. Some debates being more important than others. My point being researchers appear so unclear about so much that you should understand any creationists scepticism, as opposed to maintaining that the clarity of evidence within your fossil and genomic data is irrefutably solid.

Go give these researchers your evidence. They have obviously missed it!.

so, again, you believe, a fully developed human just MAGICALLY appeared???..it would have to be magic,no??no science,no math,etc

 

[newhope101]

Well, you all need to go tell these credentialed researchers they shouldn't ever have any difficulty or challenge any status quo, because here on RF it is all worked out.

Yes, it wasn't that long ago you all had evidence that we evolved from knuckle walkers. Now we didn't. You had a LUCA that supported ToE, now there is convincing evidence there is no LUCA and that supports Toe. Scientists expected smooth transition, they got staged evolution and that still supports Toe. Yes, evidence built on a foundation of straw soon topples and gives way to a new commonly held belief. Then there's Neanderthal. They are not ancestors, then they are, then they are not. I wonder what the latest is. That must be right!!!!

The Toe myth goes on. The straw grabbing continues, no matter what turns up.

There are examples of flat faced non human primates dated to 12 million years ago. Still all modern human features in any primate, that of course fits into your model, is used to make headlines re some new homo subspecies.

The sad fact is that there have always been flat faced non human primates. Of course Lluc was said to not be in the Homo line, It MIGHT be evolutionary convergence they say? Scientists can only find similar values within the Genus of Homo. Perhaps you can send these researchers your links and expertise and finalise the matter like you all do on RF and take the "might" out of it.

These primates you find that you say are ancestors are nothing more than primates that have flatter faces. Ardi shows non human primates can have hands that appear relatively modern, there's been bipeds for yonks before Homo ever kicked off, and there are non human primates with modern looking skulls back 12 million years. The fossil evidence you have means nothing really other than non human primates had huge variations that had nothing to do with becoming human.

Again I say the fossil evidence is about as convincing as Santa, only strong enough to convince the immature mind.


I should quote something I suppose:
A unique Middle Miocene European hominoid and the origins of the great ape and human clade - 2009

Craniofacial angle. The most outstanding characteristic of A. brevirostris is the strong reduction of the facial skeleton, because of the combination of an anteriorly positioned glabella with limited nasal and reduced alveolar prognathism. Measurements of the craniofacial angle (CFA) clearly show this pattern (Fig. 2; see also SI Text and Tables S2 and S3). In fossil and living catarrhines, CFA does not surpass 60°, with colobines and hylobatids displaying the highest values, because of their anteriorly placed glabella. The value of A. brevirostris is even higher and only comparable to that of fossil Homo. The differences in CFA between Anoiapithecus and other fossil taxa included in the analysis clearly exceed the normal range of variation within extant taxa, as reflected by their 95% confidence intervals, thus confirming the distinctiveness of the unique taxon.

 

[Autodidact]

There is plenty enough uncertainty for anyone to maintain the fossil record is not convincing.

No, there isn't. It's the same song over and over again with you. The fossil record is not convincing as to the precise evolutionary pathway. It is completely convincing (to anyone willing to be convinced by scientific evidence) as to the existence of an evolutonary pathway.

This has been said to you 50 times or more. So, I have a question for you:
Are you
(1) too stupid to grasp this
(2) not honest enough to admit it OR
(3) in disagreement with the entire science of Biology, >99% of all Biologists, and all the experts in hominid evolution who have devoted their lives to studying the subject?

If #3, why? What are you seeing that these intelligent and devoted researchers are not seeing, and what makes your view more likely than the people who have devoted their lives to studying the matter, over the last 50 years?

 

[outhouse]

Yes, it wasn't that long ago you all had evidence that we evolved from knuckle walkers. Now we didn't.

Yes we did evolve from knuckle walkers lol, just not the current chimps or apes. From a line of a commmon ancestor.

You have been told this blue in the face.

evidence built on a foundation of straw soon topples

the evidence is based on facts, get used to it. your wrong again.

These primates you find that you say are ancestors are nothing more than primates that have flatter faces

your right actually.

as our ape like common ancestors evolved they were still very ape like.

THATS WHAT EVOLUTION DOES

they evolved from knuckle walkers to walking bipedal but remained primate like.

There is a clear path on how they became more human.

Take homo erectus who lived for a million year, that has the mechanics for speech as much as we do, built fires, made stone tools and lived in hunter gatherer groups, They died out a million years ago. They were primates that evolved started to look and act very human yet you could see more primate in there faces then modern man.

PLEASE your lack of education in the field is embarrassing with the uneducated comments you make. If you want to put up a good fight please educate yourself.

 

[painted wolf]

Outhouse- the last shared ancestor of chimps and humans was not a knuckle-walking ape. That mode of locomotion was developed in the chimp lineage post divergence.

newhope- do you think any scientific endeavor where there is debate about the minutia is invalid? This is what you keep proposing with biology.
Do you think geology, physics and so on are unreliable?

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse- the last shared ancestor of chimps and humans was not a knuckle-walking ape. That mode of locomotion was developed in the chimp lineage post divergence.

I assumed all monkey or ape or primates moved that way, just for the fact they were not bipedal

Thank you

I found this wiki

Since then, scientists discovered Ardipithecus ramidus, a human-like hominid descended from the common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans. Ar. ramidus engaged in upright walking, but not knuckle-walking. This leads scientists to conclude that chimpanzees and apes evolved knuckle-walking after they split from humans 6 million years ago, and humans evolved upright walking without knuckle-walking

 

[painted wolf]

I assumed all monkey or ape or primates moved that way, just for the fact they were not bipedal

Thank you

Nope, only two extant ape lineages move this way... Gorillas and the two Chimp species. Each evolved this method of moving independently. Orangutan species walk on their fists but do so in a very different way, not involving their knuckles.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

newhope... if the fossil record is so unreliable, why do you never find mammals before the Triassic? And why do you find fossils of egg laying mammals before marsupials and marsupials before placentals?

wa:do

 

[Riverwolf]

they believed the earth was flat

Aristotle was the first man to demonstrate that the earth was round, at about 600 B.C., by looking at lunar eclipses.

During the Medieval times, the round earth was the accepted model. Ever read the Divine Comedy?

how come they didn't have electricity??atomic bombs?guns?intelligent for THEIR TIME, perhaps....

Those simply came about by men experimenting. They were as possible thousands of years ago as they are now. Just like future technology is possible now; it only waits for us to learn how to utilize the necessary components.

How many people do you know of who knows how electricity works? How atomic bombs work? How guns work?

I've heard that the Mayan calender was more accurate than ours.

The Indus Valley Civilization had gridded streets and sewers. (And this was more than 4000 years ago).

How did the great Pyramids get built?

Ancient China created gunpowder, paper, printing, and the compass.

Yeah, the ancients were really stupid compared to us. :sarcastic

 

[outhouse]

Nope, only two extant ape lineages move this way... Gorillas and the two Chimp species. Each evolved this method of moving independently. Orangutan species walk on their fists but do so in a very different way, not involving their knuckles.

wa:do

I would have bet money that a orangutan was a knuckle walker lol

 

[outhouse]

Yeah, the ancients were really stupid compared to us. :sarcastic

to this day with our modern equipment we cannot match there rock work on the scale they did.

 

[JustWondering2]

to this day with our modern equipment we cannot match there rock work on the scale they did.

IMHO
Perhaps we could match what they did with modern equipment. However the cost would be way too high and what would be gained by building one?

 

[outhouse]

IMHO
Perhaps we could match what they did with modern equipment. However the cost would be way too high and what would be gained by building one?

would they and could they are two different things

True they wouldnt and I dont think we can, We dont possess the skills required. Most crafstsmen capabale were lost 500 year ago.

I dont think modern man could do Machu Pichuu and I know they couldnt do Sacsayhuaman and puma punku. Not with the detail the originals were done with.

I agree with cost and expense throug the roof equalling the total worth of small country's we could make a rough draft.

The inside cuts at puma punku cannot be done with the clarity and theres not enough craftsmen in the world to carve 100 ton boulders into place like a jig saw puzzle where a razor cant fit in between.


my whole point is there is nothing magic about it, they were intellegent skillful craftsmen

 

[JustWondering2]

Oh i agree! Not taking anything away from them at all! I think it's amazing what they did. I also wonder if they had help or they knew things we have no clue about today! Again IMHO

 

[outhouse]

I also wonder if they had help

having been to these places I will say No they didnt. I have been in the quarrys and seen the hand tool marks on the rocks

Think about it for a thousand year's skills would have been handed down through the generations and all they did was rock work.

They had rock and they had the stars lol they were good at both.

in peru the incans had 3 rules to live by.

don’t lie
don’t steal
don’t be lazy.

 

[JustWondering2]

I was think more on the engineering side, such as help moving the blocks into place and alingment. But yes I think the stones were carved by hand.

 

[outhouse]

all good questions.

I dont know those answers but i do know that if all you did was move rocks around for a thousand years or more you would get very good at it.

The fact that almost all ancient builders around the world used rock and most of them large tells me that no one helped, they were just good.

egypt has drawings of the men moving large blocks by hand and many blocks had quarry workers signatures on them so again I dought theres any magic or alien influence.

 

[David M]

to this day with our modern equipment we cannot match there rock work on the scale they did.

We can.

We can cut rock to a finer tolerance and we have cranes that can lift heaver blocks. We lack the craftsmen to do things by hand because we use machines, however there is nothing stopping us training such craftsmen.

Nowadays we use concrete and steel because its much cheaper and quicker.

Nothing here is meant to denigrate the intelligence and achievements of the ancients but they were not more intelligent or skilled than we could be if we had to build using stone as they did.

 

[outhouse]

We can.

We can cut rock to a finer tolerance and we have cranes that can lift heaver blocks. We lack the craftsmen to do things by hand because we use machines, however there is nothing stopping us training such craftsmen.

Nowadays we use concrete and steel because its much cheaper and quicker.

Nothing here is meant to denigrate the intelligence and achievements of the ancients but they were not more intelligent or skilled than we could be if we had to build using stone as they did.

they recently had one of the better stoneworkers in the country take on a inside corner, cut using templates and this is the best we have and it did not come close to the work done at puma punku.

You cannot use concrete to compare stonework. as you know.

You cannot get a crane or heavey equipment in to places ancient man built on so that doesnt fly.

we cannot match the tolerences of some of the egyption tombs

we cannot match the quality of putting 100 ton boulders together like a puzzle with perfect joints. This kind of work is everywhere in Peru.

I will agree that we can surpass some work, and come close to others but we cannot match it all. Thast eaxcatly why you get these odball aliens nut jobs like vandanigan or what ever his name is

 

[David M]

they recently had one of the better stoneworkers in the country take on a inside corner, cut using templates and this is the best we have and it did not come close to the work done at puma punku.

And yet we have tools such as water jets that can cut stone to minute tolerances (to 0.08mm or less) much thinner than the thickness of a razor blade. And modern stoneworkers could learn to cut to the same tolerances as they did at puma punku if we still built that way, but no stoneworker is trained to do this nowadays because we no longer construct stonework in the same way, and haven't for centuries.

You cannot use concrete to compare stonework. as you know.

I didn't. Learn to read. I said we use concrete and steel instead of stone for reasons of cost and time which is why no one is trained to hand cut stone that accurately any more (and we use machines to cut stone now).

You cannot get a crane or heavey equipment in to places ancient man built on so that doesnt fly.

Yes you can. If we wanted to we could get it anwhere on the surface of the planet if the money was available. Build a road, get the parts in and assemble the crane on-site, expensive but not technically difficult.

we cannot match the tolerences of some of the egyption tombs

We can exceed the tolerances of the eqyptian tombs with modern equipment. We also make hand tools with far greater precision than the egyptians had.

we cannot match the quality of putting 100 ton boulders together like a puzzle with perfect joints. This kind of work is everywhere in Peru.

Yes we can, we can do it easily if we had to. We just don't need to.

We could even do it all by hand if we needed to and we trained the people to do the job beforehand.

I will agree that we can surpass some work, and come close to others but we cannot match it all. Thast eaxcatly why you get these odball aliens nut jobs like vandanigan or what ever his name is

Yes, we can match it all. Its people blindly accepting the logic that because we don't construct things in the same way anymore that we are incapable of doing so if we wanted to that are the nutjobs.

Here's a fact, the LBT at Mount Graham International Observatory is engineered to tolerances of 1 millionth of an inch.