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What does the fossil record say?

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Nonsense!
Bacteria are classified.
You have Xenobacteria, Planctomycetes, Cyanobacteria, etc.
They remain within their classification so that you can identify E.Coli from salmonella.
That is just an example of variation within the species. Just like the variety of dogs and humans.


Unfortunately for you all of biology disagrees with you. Biologist understand that bacteria undergoes evolution....and it's not just something as simple as "variation within a species" ....

http://www.bacteriamuseum.org/cms/Evolution/evolution-in-bacteria.html
http://www.bacteriamuseum.org/cms/E...-archaebacteria-the-oldest-forms-of-life.html


And this one is a perfect walk through.....No scientist believes that it's simply "variation within a species".....

Battling bacterial evolution: the work of Carl Bergstrom
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
"More likely to survive" is shorthand for this

a. the genetic contribution of an individual to the next generation's gene pool relative to the average for the population, usually measured by the number of offspring or close kin that survive to reproductive age.
No one bothered giving the full definition because we knew you wouldn't understand it. And we were right to assume so, since you found the definition yourself, posted it, and still didn't understand it.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You have absolutely no way of proving that. That's the theory part.
Except for the fact that it's pretty demonstrable that a creature more fit to survive in a given environment is more likely to survive and reproduce, and that in doing so it passes on these traits to it's offspring.

This has been directly observed in such instances as ring species. It is a fact.

Surviving means reproducing. Understood?
.
Surviving MEANS reproducing. Understood?
Survive
1. To remain alive or in existence.
2. To carry on despite hardships or trauma; persevere: families that were surviving in tents after the flood.
3. To remain functional or usable: I dropped the radio, but it survived.


Now, stop playing word games. We know what we mean when we use the word "survive" and you know what we mean as well. You're just dodging the point.

That's a ridiculous statement! No creature can reproduce UNsuccessfully.
Surviving means reproducing - understood?
No creature can reproduce unsuccessfully? Are you that ignorant of biology?

Not reproducing successfully means "not reproducing" or "not reproducing healthy offspring". This shouldn't even need an explanation, wilson, this is basics of the basics we're talking about here. Don't be so dense.

Mutations always weaken the original organism. It does not lend itself to any improvement in the organism. Experiments with Drosophilia proved it. Experiments with plants proved it. Microevolution does not lead to Macroevolution. You have absolutely no evidence that proves it. Only theory.
You are lying through your teeth.

The vast majority of mutations do not weaken nor stengthen an organism - the vast majority are neutral. Very few are detrimental, and very few are positive, but mutations can and have added benefits to living organisms. Here are the studies of such mutations occuring:

Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection

Think about it, wilson. Mutations are random, so why would they always be harmful? That makes no sense. Mutations rearrange information in the genome randomly, so they stand just as much a chance of adding benefits (however small) to an organism than harming it.

You lost me there, fella.
You acted as if the example brought up in the definition you used was always the case - it isn't. It was an examples used to illustrate the difference between measuring fitness and measuring success in reproducing. Just because a certain creature reproduces a lot does not make it more fit because those offspring could be too weak to survive. Understood?

You just insist on talking nonsense. It is said that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I told you already and I'm telling you again:
No organism can survive and reproduce Unsuccessfully. IT IS ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL.
This argument is not only demonstrably false (you ever heard of miscarriages, stillbirths, infertility?), but it also makes no sense. What does the law of causation have to do with reproduction?

Honestly, wilson, you seem to be extremely naive about this subject.

Your entire conversation heavily presupposes evolution takes place and you frame your thoughts and words to suit that mentality.
I'm trying to explain to you how natural selection works. Of course I'm going to presuppose that evolution is true, because it is.

I think I know why you insist on this "reproducing" kick. That's because you believe that the mechanisms for morphology is in the reproduction. It is only a belief.
Again, you don't appear to be making any sense whatsoever. Are you now going to assert that living things don't reproduce with variation and that mutations don't occur through reproduction?

That is even more nonsense. The peacock didn't DEVELOP anything! It does not know HOW it got its feathers and colors. The giraffe didn't develop its long neck.
DNA, morphology, the fossil record and basically all of biology disagrees with you. Also, where did I claim that peacocks "knew" how they got their feathers and colours? What are you even talking about?

Did you "develop" fingers? Why did they stop growing at the right length?
Did you develop eyes? Or the ability to ENJOY life? These things never came on slowly. Understood?
They came on slowly over countless generations of my ancestors through the process of evolution. Asserting otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence does not suddenly invalidate that claim.

In those areas "natural selection" is unemployed.
What are you talking about? I've already explained why natural selection is not just about surviving predators. It's about reproducing successfully. Organisms which carry mutations that increase their chances to mate and reproduce successfully are fitter and more likely to thrive in the gene pool.

You seriously cannot be this misinformed about basic biology. You have no business debating this subject if you cannot understand this extremely simple concept.
 
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wilsoncole

Active Member
"More likely to survive" is shorthand for this

No one bothered giving the full definition because we knew you wouldn't understand it. And we were right to assume so, since you found the definition yourself, posted it, and still didn't understand it.
I don't know if you can understand this:
I REJECT IT!
There are PhD biologists who reject it. Do you imagine that is because they do not understand it?
If you do, then for you, the deception is total.


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
No creature can reproduce unsuccessfully? Are you that ignorant of biology?

Not reproducing successfully means "not reproducing" or "not reproducing healthy offspring". This shouldn't even need an explanation, wilson, this is basics of the basics we're talking about here. Don't be so dense.

FREAKING EXACTLY...!!!!!!

I just got through saying that surviving ("isn't strictly about living or strength.").
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't know if you can understand this:
I REJECT IT!

That much is clear, albeit puzzling as well.


There are PhD biologists who reject it. Do you imagine that is because they do not understand it?

Yes. It is either that, some sort of delusion or inbalance, or plain dishonesty.

Assuming, of course, that such Biologists do in fact exist in the first place. It would be much like physicists doubting the existence of electricity.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
There is no debate among scientist about evolution. None at all. It is taken as fact.

the only people that deny evolution are those who's religion has closed there minds.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is no debate among scientist about evolution. None at all. It is taken as fact.

More to the point, it doesn't even need to be taken as fact, because (as PW once put it) Biologists keep "tripping over" its evidence while they do their work.

Sometimes I wonder what Creationists believe current day Biology to be like.
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
There are PhD biologists who reject it. Do you imagine that is because they do not understand it?
I'm not aware of any actual biologists who reject evolution. Most of the people with doctorates who oppose evolution have degrees from degree mills. There are some others, but they have degrees in unrelated fields.

But let's play this game. You give me a list of scientists who oppose evolution, i'll bet it's dwarfed by the list of scientists named Steve who support it.
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
That much is clear, albeit puzzling as well.
I understand your puzzlement. It was long ago foretold:

"Because YOU do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of YOU." (1 Peter 4:4)

The abusive part follows:
Yes. It is either that, some sort of delusion or inbalance, or plain dishonesty.

Assuming, of course, that such Biologists do in fact exist in the first place. It would be much like physicists doubting the existence of electricity.
Scripture does not lie!


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
I'm not aware of any actual biologists who reject evolution. Most of the people with doctorates who oppose evolution have degrees from degree mills. There are some others, but they have degrees in unrelated fields.

But let's play this game. You give me a list of scientists who oppose evolution, i'll bet it's dwarfed by the list of scientists named Steve who support it.
That's the opinion of you and the man in the outhouse who never adds anything significant to any discussion.
I was talking about NATURAL SELECTION.
Behe (1996), Berlinski (1996), Dembski (1998a), Junker and Scherer (1998), Lönnig and Saedler (1997), ReMine (1993), and Schützenberger (1996). These men "are entirely convinced that the action of natural selection is only of limited significance and that it is largely incompetent to explain the origin of life’s major features from biochemistry to systematics, especially the origin of higher systematic categories."
NATURAL SELECTION

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Scripture does not lie!

yes it does. my opinion is that they are stolen fables from egypt and sumerian cultures.

thats why the ten commandments mimic the book of the dead

thast why the noah mimics the sumerian regional flood of 2900BC

the lies blatant at that go on and on and on
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I don't know if you can understand this:
I REJECT IT!


how do you reject it if you don't understand it?

here are PhD biologists who reject it. Do you imagine that is because they do not understand it?
If you do, then for you, the deception is total.

could you list these PhD's please
and provide sources to back this up, thank you.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
That's the opinion of you and the man in the outhouse who never adds anything significant to any discussion.
I was talking about NATURAL SELECTION.
Behe (1996), Berlinski (1996), Dembski (1998a), Junker and Scherer (1998), Lönnig and Saedler (1997), ReMine (1993), and Schützenberger (1996). These men "are entirely convinced that the action of natural selection is only of limited significance and that it is largely incompetent to explain the origin of life&#8217;s major features from biochemistry to systematics, especially the origin of higher systematic categories."
NATURAL SELECTION
Wilson

And now you are misrepresenting creationists.

Behe does not deny that natural selection exists, just that it cannot explain instances of IC, that requires a "designer".

"Evolution is a controversial topic, so it is necessary to address a few basic questions at the beginning of the book. Many people think that questioning Darwinian evolution must be equivalent to espousing creationism. As commonly understood, creationism involves belief in an earth formed only about ten thousand years ago, an interpretation of the Bible that is still very popular. For the record, I have no reason to doubt that the universe is the billions of years old that physicists say it is. Further, I find the idea of common descent (that all organisms share a common ancestor) fairly convincing, and have no particular reason to doubt it. I greatly respect the work of my colleagues who study the development and behavior of organisms within an evolutionary framework, and I think that evolutionary biologists have contributed enormously to our understanding of the world. Although Darwin's mechanism &#8211; natural selection working on variation &#8211; might explain many things, however, I do not believe it explains molecular life. I also do not think it surprising that the new science of the very small might change the way we view the less small." Darwin's Black Box, pp 5-6.

Note that Behe also accepts common descent.

In fact all of those people accept that natural selection does exist, they just deny its ability to account for some aspects of biology. So unlike you they do not reject natural selection.
 
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David M

Well-Known Member
I understand your puzzlement. It was long ago foretold:

"Because YOU do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of YOU." (1 Peter 4:4)

That verse has nothing to do with the subject under discussion, your claim that it was foretold is garbage, just the usual tactic of taking a verse out of context and pretending it has some relevance.

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. (1 Peter 4:3).

What has this to do with evolution, biology and science? Not a jot.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Says who?

a. the genetic contribution of an individual to the next generation's gene pool relative to the average for the population, usually measured by the number of offspring or close kin that survive to reproductive age.

b. the ability of a population to maintain or increase its numbers in succeeding generations.
Says nothing there about "more likely to survive." You really never give me a reason to believe you, so I don't.l
Now stop. Really, stop talking and think for a moment. If an individual doesn't survive to reproduce, will make any contribution to the next generation's gene pool? What does it take to contribute to the next generation's gene pool? (1) survive (2) reproduce. = fitness. Get it?

"Propagated as much" my foot! How do you think they got here? Propagation of - what? Why, Genes, of course.
Unless they don't.

It's really very simple.
I know. But getting you to understand it is hard.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
That's the opinion of you and the man in the outhouse who never adds anything significant to any discussion.
I was talking about NATURAL SELECTION.
Behe (1996), Berlinski (1996), Dembski (1998a), Junker and Scherer (1998), Lönnig and Saedler (1997), ReMine (1993), and Schützenberger (1996). These men "are entirely convinced that the action of natural selection is only of limited significance and that it is largely incompetent to explain the origin of life&#8217;s major features from biochemistry to systematics, especially the origin of higher systematic categories."
NATURAL SELECTION


I must point out...once more that you very own link has this to say about Natural Selection.

DOES NATURAL SELECTION EXIST AT ALL?
The remarks made so far, however, do not refute the occurrence of natural selection. In spite of the problems just mentioned, it is self-evident that physiologically, anatomically, and ethologically damaged mutants and recombinants (to speak again in the contemporary genetic language of these individuals) will be at a disadvantage in many situations (lame prey in relation to their predators and vice versa). It is only on islands with loss or diminution of stabilizing selection that processes of degeneration may occur quickly (for further discussion of the topic, see Lönnig, 1993, 1998; Kunze et al., 1997). Furthermore, survival of the fittest evidently takes place, for example, in cases of alleles and plasmids with strongly selective advantages, as in the cases of multiple resistance in bacteria and resistance to DDT in many insect species. After pointing out that Darwin knew hardly any cases of natural selection, Mayr asserts (1998, p. 191): "Now, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of well-established proofs, including such well-known instances as insecticide resistance of agricultural pests, antibiotic resistance of bacteria, industrial melanism, the attenuation of the myxomatosis virus in Australia, the sickle-cell gene and other blood genes and malaria, to mention only a few spectacular cases."


But I see you cite Behe from that source. He's the same guy arguing for "irreducible complexity" and was shown to be incorrect in his assertion.
[youtube]ZD-VBdsbAXY[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD-VBdsbAXY&feature=related

It was rightfully debunked by Dr. Ken Miller
[youtube]m2alpk8PUd4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2alpk8PUd4

Behe testified that IC was indeed fact and even quoted a notable scientist but that scientist, who spoke with NOVA, refuted Behe's quoting of him as well as refuting Behe's portrayal of IC.
[youtube]a_5FToP_mMY[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_5FToP_mMY
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I don't know if you can understand this:
I REJECT IT!
There are PhD biologists who reject it. Do you imagine that is because they do not understand it?
If you do, then for you, the deception is total.


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson

Name ten Phd biologists who reject ToE.
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
Nor am I going to. Why should I?
I said nothing about it - did I?
The question was, can mutations lead to a new species. You say it cannot and you presented Lönnig's theories, including his "law of recurrent variation", as proof that it cannot. Unless you can show that his theory is more than just wishful thinking, they you have failed.

"More fit" than what? If they, the D/R one and the prone, are both surviving, I see no real longevity advantage.
More fit than the ones that don't survive long enough to produce offspring. If you cannot even understand this simple concept, then I see no hope in you ever understanding evolution.
 
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