What evidence is there that christians are all mass deluded?

[Heneni]

You got it backwards, Christians are not delusional or crazy and therefore believe in God. Christians believe in God and are therefore disillusioned, that's what makes them delusional or crazy.

Ok...whatever word you prefer. Disillusioned..... Fair enough...Now evidence that there is probably cause for being mass disillusioned?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

I think is said it down there somewhere....delusional or crazy about thinking god exists. If christians are deluded or crazy to believe in god, then there must be evidence to present that their minds are somehow....wired to come up with this stuff.....all by themselves.

And then there must surely be evidence that this kind of thinking is contageous or genetic, you know...i cant help believing in god, i was born that way, or there must be evidence that the minds of these christians have somehow gone wrong somewhere. We are believing in the invisible pink unicorn.

Heneni

There is a prevalance of beliefs in powerful spirits / supernatural agents able to intervene in our lives in ways that we are not capable of directly doing ourselves. Its very common. Also, such beliefs remain even when there is very little evidence or strong contradictory evidence. This suggests to me that we are naturally wired up to believe in powerful spirits / supernatural agents.

The less general details of such beliefs, such as the who, what, where and why, have to be communicated in ways that we are capable of directly doing ourselves, e.g. books, spoken words, paintings. This suggests to me that such ideas do catch on and you could compare them to contagious bugs (though that has negative connotations).

Would you accept that both paragraphs above generally fit the way things are? If not, is there good evidence to the contrary?

 

[dogsgod]

Ok...whatever word you prefer. Disillusioned..... Fair enough...Now evidence that there is probably cause for being mass disillusioned?

I think you missed my point, but never mind. Anyways, there are a number of reasons why people believe weird things and there are books written on the very topic by leading experimental psychologists if you're interested. Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time (9780716733874): Michael Shermer: Books

 

[Madhuri]

Hmmm....millions of christians are brainwashed. Ok...great so by what mechanism are christians brainwashed. What brainwashes us? What makes us suseptable to being the type to be brainwashed?

Not just chirstians- everybody is brainwashed in some way.
Basically we all believe things that we are told that are not necessarily true. I suppose it is brainwashing when a person believes something so adamantly, and with such passion and emotion, for no greater reason than being drilled with an idea rather than experiencing it as a reality. I htink that most people in the world fit this catagory.

Many things make us suseptible. Fear is one magnificant vulnerability. As is ignorance (lack of knowledge). And considering that most people believe what was instilled in them as children...

 

[Heneni]

This suggests to me that we are naturally wired up to believe in powerful spirits / supernatural agents.

But what about atheists?

The less general details of such beliefs, such as the who, what, where and why, have to be communicated in ways that we are capable of directly doing ourselves, e.g. books, spoken words, paintings. This suggests to me that such ideas do catch on and you could compare them to contagious bugs (though that has negative connotations).

Books, spoken words, paintings all have a way of falling within someone's taste. If christians have a taste for the invisible God, where do they get this from?

 

[Poisonshady313]

There is the idea that Christianity was created by the Romans for the express dual purpose of pacifying a militant Jewish group at the time and having the masses worship Emperor Titus as God, convincing them that he was both a god and the messiah foretold by the Jewish prophets.

Google "Caesar's Messiah"

It's a book by Joseph Atwill, who demonstrates the idea I just mentioned in detail. I haven't had the chance to read the book yet, though I sat through an hour long video where he answers questions about it (on the Caesar's Messiah website).

 

[Heneni]

I think you missed my point, but never mind. Anyways, there are a number of reasons why people believe weird things and there are books written on the very topic by leading experimental psychologists if you're interested. Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time (9780716733874): Michael Shermer: Books

Thanks for the link, but you know that posting a link does not verify it to be correct. If you want to discuss what YOU have read in the book here, it will be more advantageous, with particular scientific proof as to why christians believe in God.

 

[Heneni]

There is the idea that Christianity was created by the Romans for the express dual purpose of pacifying a militant Jewish group at the time and having the masses worship Emperor Titus as God, convincing them that he was both a god and the messiah foretold by the Jewish prophets.

Google "Caesar's Messiah"

It's a book by Joseph Atwill, who demonstrates the idea I just mentioned in detail. I haven't had the chance to read the book yet, though I sat through an hour long video where he answers questions about it (on the Caesar's Messiah website).

You are a jew...do you believe in God? What is wrong with you then?

 

[Heneni]

Not just chirstians- everybody is brainwashed in some way.
Basically we all believe things that we are told that are not necessarily true. I suppose it is brainwashing when a person believes something so adamantly, and with such passion and emotion, for no greater reason than being drilled with an idea rather than experiencing it as a reality. I htink that most people in the world fit this catagory.

Many things make us suseptible. Fear is one magnificant vulnerability. As is ignorance (lack of knowledge). And considering that most people believe what was instilled in them as children...

That would mean that a christian can only be a christian if he/she has been indoctrinated by other christians for most of their young life. But that does not explain why some people in hindu, or islamic nations convert to christianity not by being exposed to it from childhood, but rather having one encounter that changed their beliefs. So really, if christians are only christians because they have been brainwashed, then naturally one has to be unbrainwashed and re-brainwashed to change religion. The nature of being brainwashed, is that you dont have the sense to realise your way of thinking is wrong and therefore cant change it unless someone else comes and brainwashes you again. Hmmm....it just doesnt seem plausible that christians believe in God because they have been brainwashed. It would mean that given enough exposure to atheists, they will be unbrainwashed, and well, that hasnt happened, not to me it hasnt. If brainwashing is how we come to believe, then more brainwashing in the opposite direction can make us stop believing. And having said that, if everybody is brainwashed then that would include atheists. How would a christian know that they are not simply being brainwashed by another brainwashed person?

 

[Madhuri]

That would mean that a christian can only be a christian if he/she has been indoctrinated by other christians for most of their young life. But that does not explain why some people in hindu, or islamic nations convert to christianity not by being exposed to it from childhood, but rather having one encounter that changed their beliefs. So really, if christians are only christians because they have been brainwashed, then naturally one has to be unbrainwashed and re-brainwashed to change religion. The nature of being brainwashed, is that you dont have the sense to realise your way of thinking is wrong and therefore cant change it unless someone else comes and brainwashes you again. Hmmm....it just doesnt seem plausible that christians believe in God because they have been brainwashed. It would mean that given enough exposure to atheists, they will be unbrainwashed, and well, that hasnt happened, not to me it hasnt. If brainwashing is how we come to believe, then more brainwashing in the opposite direction can make us stop believing. And having said that, if everybody is brainwashed then that would include atheists. How would a christian know that they are not simply being brainwashed by another brainwashed person?

I did not intend to imply that a Chirstian is a Chirstian only because they have been brainwashed. People are always converting to different faiths, and for very specific reasons.

But you pose a very good question. How doesn anybody know that they are or are not being brainwashed? I think the only time that we are not being brainwashed is when we use our own intelligence to find out if something being otld is reliable/valid and worthy of belief. So long as we are following something blindly, we are brainwashed. Even if that belief is true.

 

[richardlowellt]

Hmmm....millions of christians are brainwashed. Ok...great so by what mechanism are christians brainwashed. What brainwashes us? What makes us suseptable to being the type to be brainwashed?

I suspect you, along with millions of other Christians, were brainwashed as a child. The malleable brain of the young ripe for religious molding. Being told that an all powerful being watches you every minuet of every day, and that certain rules have to be obeyed of horrid things will happen to you, must certainly have made a lasting impression, add to that the fact that this being is able to peer into your mind at anytime and see your most private thoughts, is there any doubt that these strong impressions are carried with you into your adult life.

 

[Heneni]

I did not intend to imply that a Chirstian is a Chirstian only because they have been brainwashed. People are always converting to different faiths, and for very specific reasons.

But you pose a very good question. How doesn anybody know that they are or are not being brainwashed? I think the only time that we are not being brainwashed is when we use our own intelligence to find out if something being otld is reliable/valid and worthy of belief. So long as we are following something blindly, we are brainwashed. Even if that belief is true.

Christians follow an invisible god. How can an invisible god brainwash. How can something that does not exist, make you want to follow it? How can this non-existing god, grip you so, that you follow Him 'blindly'.

 

[Heneni]

I suspect you, along with millions of other Christians, were brainwashed as a child. The malleable brain of the young ripe for religious molding. Being told that an all powerful being watches you every minuet of every day, and that certain rules have to be obeyed of horrid things will happen to you, must certainly have made a lasting impression, add to that the fact that this being is able to peer into your mind at anytime and see your most private thoughts, is there any doubt that these strong impressions are carried with you into your adult life.

i suspect that you are generalising that all christians have been brainwashed as children. It would mean that when we grow up, we can forsake santa-clause. So what is it about a christian that does not make them 'outgrow' their god? How is it, that very many extremely intelligent, critical thinking people, still believe in this God even in their old age? What benefit is there to believing in this God when he really is not real? Why come up with a concept of 'god' in the first place?

 

[Madhuri]

Christians follow an invisible god. How can an invisible god brainwash. How can something that does not exist, make you want to follow it? How can this non-existing god, grip you so, that you follow Him 'blindly'.

He doesn't.
Preachers do. Your religious teachers do. Your politicians and your parents do. Your friends, your neighbours, even people on tv. Your culture does. But all of these people are just like you. They haven't seen or chatted to God. They are not prophets. They were simply taught by somebody else who was taught by another person. Go to India, go to Egypt, go to Israel, go to some tribe out in the jungle. They all feel as strongly as the rest of us about thier own belief. They could all pose this question.

Btw, I'm not disputing the existence of a God/Divinity. I'm disputing the reasons that we believe in one.

 

[Heneni]

He doesn't.
Preachers do. Your religious teachers do. Your politicians and your parents do. Your friends, your neighbours, even people on tv. Your culture does. But all of these people are just like you. They haven't seen or chatted to God. They are not prophets. They were simply taught by somebody else who was taught by another person. Go to India, go to Egypt, go to Israel, go to some tribe out in the jungle. They all feel as strongly as the rest of us about thier own belief. They could all pose this question.

Christians lol are taught by their god. Yes there are pastors and folk that talk about him, but he really is the one that reveals himself. So you can I suppose lay the blame of believing in god solely on those who talk about him, and yet, he never becomes really real to anybody that has only heard about him, atheists have heard about him, he becomes real to those he teaches himself. So now we have christians believing in this invisible non-existant god, and to top it all off, they are taught by him, and to make matters worse, he does not exist.

So...what is it about the human mind of a christian, that not only believes in this god, but actually is taught by him. He is not only a figment of our imagination, but he is also the one that changes our behaviour. So then if this non-existant god only exists in our minds, fair enough, but for this non-existant god to change our behaviour....what is that? How does a figment of one's imagination change your behaviour? That sounds like we are crazy...and then well....there must be some scientifice method to prove that.

 

[Madhuri]

Christians lol are taught by their god. Yes there are pastors and folk that talk about him, but he really is the one that reveals himself. So you can I suppose lay the blame of believing in god solely on those who talk about him, and yet, he never becomes really real to anybody that has only heard about him, atheists have heard about him, he becomes real to those he teaches himself. So now we have christians believing in this invisible non-existant god, and to top it all off, they are taught by him, and to make matters worse, he does not exist.

So...what is it about the human mind of a christian, that not only believes in this god, but actually is taught by him. He is not only a figment of our imagination, but he is also the one that changes our behaviour. So then if this non-existant god only exists in our minds, fair enough, but for this non-existant god to change our behaviour....what is that? How does a figment of one's imagination change your behaviour? That sounds like we are crazy...and then well....there must be some scientifice method to prove that.

How do you believe that God teaches a person if he is invisible and does not talk? By intuition?

I just have to say, even though this thread is about Christians specifically, I wonder if you realise that people is basically all religions have claimed personal contact and experience with God/gods/divinity. Are they making it up? Is it a figment of their imagination? Why would they be delusional and Christians not?

The human brain is exceptionally good at interpreting and attributing stimuli to suit our ideas/beliefs/concepts. We often see what we want to see, or what we believe we will see. That is why atheists are so skeptical about personal experience; it is proven time and again that people are capable of experiencing an illusion.

 

[Humanistheart]

Christians lol are taught by their god. Yes there are pastors and folk that talk about him, but he really is the one that reveals himself. So you can I suppose lay the blame of believing in god solely on those who talk about him, and yet, he never becomes really real to anybody that has only heard about him, atheists have heard about him, he becomes real to those he teaches himself. So now we have christians believing in this invisible non-existant god, and to top it all off, they are taught by him, and to make matters worse, he does not exist.

l....there must be some scientifice method to prove that.

If god taught himself to people then surely he would not have had the need to call people to prostilatize in his name as jesus does in the bible. Also, if god was the source of thought on himself for humans than you'd think humans, or at least christians, would have a more unified idea of who and what god is, and what he wants of us, yet deffering denominations and religions abound.

As for science take some child development class's. Children's brains are conditioned by eternal stimuli, freinds, family, church, etc. Raising a child in a religion is molding their brain to a certain thought process. Christians thoughts tend to be particularly rigid and unimaginative as a result.

As for the word dillusional, it's an interesting choice, I'm wondering what could have possibly presipitated this main theame.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

But what about atheists?

Not everyone will be the same and cultural & social conditioning will make a big difference. There have always been atheists as well as theists.

Some atheists, like my father, make a conscious decision not to believe despite having religious feelings about invisible agency. Other atheists, like my brother, don't have any feelings about such things whatsoever.

To be honest, I don't have the faintest idea why some people have a tendency to believe in invisible agency and others don't. The culture & society one lives in has a statistical correlation but that isn't causation.

Books, spoken words, paintings all have a way of falling within someone's taste. If christians have a taste for the invisible God, where do they get this from?

That's a good question. I think its largely cultural & social conditioning.

There could be an innate tendency to believe in one god over many but I don't see any evidence of that. Rather, it seems down to there being a cultural & social incentive to do so.

 

[Valjean]

Re: the OP:
Christians, in common with other religious people, have a fixed belief in something without evidence supporting it, ie: a delusion. The induction and propagation of this delusion is cultural, therefore a 'mass' phenomonon.

As has been mentioned, the capacity of the mind to entertain unsupported, contradictory, illogical and bizarre ideas is well documented.

Etiology:
I've always felt that the intellectual foundation for a particular pattern of religious belief is culturlly imprinted in early childhood. We're indoctrinated in the basic tenets of our particular religion; its underlying assumptions -- axioms, if you will -- by our parents and other adults we associate with. All this at a stage preceeding the development of reason, logic and critical consideration. These religious fundamentals become part of our operating system and ROM, and thus, notoriously resistant to modification by reason or contradictory data.

 

[Heneni]

The human brain is exceptionally good at interpreting and attributing stimuli to suit our ideas/beliefs/concepts

.

Christians believe in god and then we find things to make us believe it by looking for outside stimuli that suit our already formed ideas/beliefs and concepts? How did we come up with the idea of god then in the first place? We have to come up with the concept of god, and then our brains go over to find proof of this god by looking for outside stimuli. If we believed that peter pan was real, how would we go about looking for evidence that he is real, so that we might be convinced that our beliefs are real? If our brains like to interpret stimuli, then the stimulus has to come first before the belief. That would be sensible to most folk. Yet this god of christians doesnt provide external stimuli. He is invisible and does not stimulate the senses. Our belief in this god does not come from him appearing to us. So we dont believe because we have seen, believe even though we have not seen. So we cant say that our brain is interpreting external stimuli to make this god real.

We often see what we want to see, or what we believe we will see.

The christian god is invisible, i believe in him, but i have not seen him. And nomatter how much i believe in him he has not appeared to me. So, i want to see him sure, but he has never appeared. So, what i believe i will see does not exactly work for me or christians. And i want to see god, but i dont. Yet i still believe he is real.

That is why atheists are so skeptical about personal experience; it is proven time and again that people are capable of experiencing an illusion.

People are capable of it yes. But what plausible reason is there for mass illusion of this kind? Even though there is no external stimuli, christians believe god is real. Why? What is it about our brains, our way of thinking that makes this god real despite no external stimuli. Can we say, its simply because we listen to other people and just believe them? Well then why only believe those who say there is a god, why not listen to those who say there is no-god if all we are going to do is listen to others.

Do we believe in this god because we want him to be real? If this want makes him real, then he will go away when we dont want him. He doesnt go away. If i can wish god into existance i can wish him out of existance. I cant remember any time in my life, where i have actually sat down and wished god into existance.