What exactly makes someone a TERF?

[icehorse]

@ImmortalFlame - My lack of further responses is not some tacit agreement with your points.

We simply disagree, and I'm tired of being slurred and strawmanned.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

A post earlier you asked me to deal in facts. I believe I have been.

I have yet to see it.

And now you're changing course and asking us not to believe in facts, but to be suspicious of messengers?

Wow. So, pointing out that you used an obviously anti-trans source to support your erroneous statements means I think we should "not believe in facts"??

How does that work, exacty?

Zooming out, I think most of us know that journalism is struggling to survive these days. It's fraught with corruption, ON EVERY SIDE. We must think for ourselves. One way to do that is to always look for factual claims. If an article includes many factual claims, it's far more reliable than an article that does not. Of course I understand that not all factual claims are true, but they are harder to mislead with than vagaries.

Sophistry belongs in the bin. I don't care for this desperate attempt to save face.

Once again:

You posted an article from a vehemently anti-trans website to support your argument - a website that presents NO FACTS and substantiates NO ARGUMENTS.

You did that.

You cannot run away from this being pointed out by alleging "WELL, ALL JOURNALISM IS BAD!"

No, actually. Some is fact-based. The source you presented was not only not fact based, but openly propagandistic, just like your entire thread that attempted to falsely equate puberty blockers and CASTRATION.

You engaged in a lie, and used an openly anti-trans site as a source for your lie.

As for castration, I provided a list of hormones that are used BOTH to chemically castrate sex offenders AND as puberty blockers. I understand how inconvenient that is to you, but those are FACTS.

Absolutely hilarious.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "these chemicals are the same as some chemicals used in chemical castration" and "this is chemical castration"?

If not, it's no surprise to me that you took the article as gospel. So much for facts, eh.

Your position has harmed women in sports competitions, in prisons, in women's shelters, in locker rooms, in public restrooms and so on. And the harm will grow, not shrink. This is not fear, it is common sense.

Present facts, please.

I'm going to try to steelman your arguments. It's clear we disagree, but I really think the bullying and slurs ought to stop.

I'm not bullying or slurring you. I am being honest. I don't believe you are a good faith actor.

Don't you think they are beneath you?

I know what you're trying to do, and it won't work. You want me to think you're trying to put me up on a pedestal, but in reality you're trying to insinuate that you are debating at my level. You're not. I have proven that you engage in dishonest methods and have an, at best, adversarial relationship with the truth on this subject.

So, I sincerely believe that your position is that these changes in the language have been settled for several decades, that they do no harm, and that we should accept them. I also sincerely believe that your position is that the standard of care supports supports extreme interventions including puberty blockers and occasionally surgeries, and that we should trust the professionals in this regard.

Is that a fair summary?

Not entirely. I believe there is room for nuance in all of these things.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

@ImmortalFlame - My lack of further responses is not some tacit agreement with your points.

We simply disagree, and I'm tired of being slurred and strawmanned.

Never done either. All I have done is be honest and state my belief that you are a bad faith actor, and I have presented my evidence to this effect. Frankly, the whole "castration of children" debacle was sufficient, to me, to demonstrate that you are not debating honestly. Every subsequent thread just proves it more and more.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, on the brighter side, at least we all know now what makes a non-male human a TERF.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's a textbook example of an extraordinary claim. You would have to have a BOATLOAD of evidence to support such a claim against a poster. If you do not, and I know you do not, then you're slurring that poster. full stop.

@BlueIslandGirl literally rejected the existence of transgender/transsexual people and promoted reparative therapy for us. If that's not transphobic, I don't know what is!

 

[YmirGF]

@BlueIslandGirl literally rejected the existence of transgender/transsexual people and promoted reparative therapy for us. If that's not transphobic, I don't know what is!

Just out of curiosity, do you think that there should be legal remedies for opposition to the Affirmative Care Model? State mandated "sensitivity" training?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just out of curiosity, do you think that there should be legal remedies for opposition to the Affirmative Care Model? State mandated "sensitivity" training?

No, but ignorant and extreme views that would even deny adults agency over their own body have no place in this discussion. They aren't helpful at all and aren't grounded in reality. The reality is that people like me exist and are not delusional or self-hating. Obviously there's various things going on here, but I will not stand for people acting like I don't exist and demanding I harmfully change my whole life to suit them. People need to educate themselves before rudely pontificating over subjects that have nothing to do with them but seriously effect the lives of others. They can start by, I dunno, actually meeting trans people and stop acting like we're the Boogyman. No one has the right to tell me, as an adult, that I cannot pursue whatever treatment is efficacious for me under the direction of my doctor. Anyone who thinks they have that right can **** off.

 

[YmirGF]

No, but ignorant and extreme views that would even deny adults agency over their own body have no place in this discussion. They aren't helpful at all and aren't grounded in reality. The reality is that people like me exist and are not delusional or self-hating. Obviously there's various things going on here, but I will not stand for people acting like I don't exist and demanding I harmfully change my whole life to suit them. People need to educate themselves before rudely pontificating over subjects that have nothing to do with them but seriously effect the lives of others. They can start by, I dunno, actually meeting trans people and stop acting like we're the Boogyman. No one has the right to tell me, as an adult, that I cannot pursue whatever treatment is efficacious for me under the direction of my doctor. Anyone who thinks they have that right can **** off.

One of the "guys", in one of my groups, is Selena. I have only known Selena AS A WOMAN and was genuinely surprised when I heard the rest of her story. I loved Selena from the start because after I'd spilled my guts on my first night she coldly said something like, "So, if you are so fricken together, why do you need us?" Selena was to become one of my regular calls every week, and we've spent dozens of hours on the phone and in person.

Selena is fairly insistent that psychological councilling for trans people is absolutely essential, at almost every phase of transition. (She has had complete bottom surgery, which was a bit of a nightmare because she almost died due to an arterial bleed. She is fine now, months later.) That being the case, how can this not be seen as a mental health condition? I'm not suggesting that folks are delusion, but there is pretty clearly, something going on "under the hood" as it were.

Aside: You can imagine my growing horror that I could completely relate to this former sex-worker and how she spoke of her clients. The only difference between our stories is she CHARGED for sex. I gave it away for free.

 

[Callisto]

One of the "guys", in one of my groups, is Selena. I have only known Selena AS A WOMAN and was genuinely surprised when I heard the rest of her story. I loved Selena from the start because after I'd spilled my guts on my first night she coldly said something like, "So, if you are so fricken together, why do you need us?" Selena was to become one of my regular calls every week, and we've spent hundreds of hours on the phone and in person.

Selena is fairly insistent that psychological councilling for trans people is absolutely essential, at almost every phase of transition. (She has had complete bottom surgery, which was a bit of a nightmare because she almost died due to an arterial bleed. She is fine now, months later.) That being the case, how can this not be seen as a mental health condition? I'm not suggestion that folks are delusion, but there is pretty clearly, something going on "under the hood" as it were.

Aside: You can imagine my growing horror that I could completely relate to this former sex-worker and how she spoke of her clients. The only difference between our stories is she CHARGED for sex. I gave it away for free.

Is Selena older and/or transitioned years ago? Many of the trans persons I know transitioned 30+ years ago and they will tell you it's a mental health issue and, until the recent concept of GAC, it was foremost treated as such, much to the benefit of the individual. You received a tremendous amount of mental health support well before any medical transitioning and then throughout if pursued as she stated. Far more mental health care than what exists now. Physical medical treatments were not the immediate go to like they are now. Subsequently, detransitioners were also not a thing, but many exist today who are a product of current GAC. About 10 years ago, gender dysphoria was renamed gender identity disorder and moved out of the category of psychosexual disorders into a category of its own simply because the former was thought to be stigmatizing, which doesn't change the fact that GID is psychological in origin and not physiological.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That being the case, how can this not be seen as a mental health condition? I'm not suggestion that folks are delusion, but there is pretty clearly, something going on "under the hood" as it were.

It's a medical condition with mental health aspects. The mental health part is from the dysphoria causing suffering and lack of ability to function. It seems fairly obvious that it has a biological root that is causing this extreme disassociation between the sexed characteristics of the body and self-perception, at least with some. People confuse it with being about gender roles when it really isn't. No one should be going on hormones or having surgery without being approved by a mental health professional beforehand. The informed consent model had a compassionate reason for existing, but has since been abused, unfortunately.

 

[YmirGF]

Is Selena older and/or transitioned years ago? Many of the trans persons I know transitioned 30+ years ago and they will tell you it's a mental health issue and, until the recent concept of GAC, it was foremost treated as such, much to the benefit of the individual. You received a tremendous amount of mental health support well before any medical transitioning and then throughout if pursued as she stated. Far more mental health care than what exists now. Physical medical treatments were not the immediate go to like they are now. Subsequently, detransitioners were also not a thing, but many exist today who are a product of current GAC. About 10 years ago, gender dysphoria was renamed gender identity disorder and moved out of the category of psychosexual disorders into a category of its own simply because the former was thought to be stigmatizing, which doesn't change the fact that GID is psychological in origin and not physiological.

Her surgery was less than 2 years ago and was done at a facility in Montreal, Canada.
Edit: Perhaps her caregivers are/were old school. I could ask her if you like.

 

[icehorse]

No, but ignorant and extreme views that would even deny adults agency over their own body have no place in this discussion.

Stepping back for a minute. When one RFer "likes" a post, that does NOT mean they like every jot and tittle. So I would ask you to get clarification from me before tar and feathering me.

And just so you know, probably 20 times in the last couple of months I have made it clear on this forum that I think adults should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Stepping back for a minute. When one RFer "likes" a post, that does NOT mean they like every jot and tittle. So I would ask you to get clarification from me before tar and feathering me.

And just so you know, probably 20 times in the last couple of months I have made it clear on this forum that I think adults should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies.

I wasn't referring to you. I am, however, honestly curious about which part of that post earned the "like".

 

[icehorse]

I wasn't referring to you. I am, however, honestly curious about which part of that post earned the "like".

Let's make sure we're discussing the same post. Are you referring to post #129? If so, can you tell me what part of that post seems wrong to you?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let's male sure we're discussing the same post. Are you referring to post #129? If so, can you tell me what part of that post seems wrong to you?

Ah, I was thinking of another post. You didn't like that one. @YmirGF did. Nevermind.