What Happened to the God of the Old Testament?

[Skwim]

No one likes to contemplate the wrathful side but it is there in the scriptures but even then there is a merciful side as well:

Exodus 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Note the merciful side "unto thousands".

As I see it there is a wrathful side to God and a merciful side... as well.

Merciful as long as one is aware of and abides with his rules and loves him. All others are evidently open to his wrath during their lifetime.

9They that put their trust in him shall understand the truth:
and such as be faithful in love shall abide with him: for grace
and mercy is to his saints, and he hath care for his elect.

And again, the proviso as mentioned above.

10 But the ungodly shall be punished according to their own
imaginations, which have neglected the righteous, and forsaken
the Lord.

Just as I said here. Play his game and you'll survive. Don't play his game and suffer.

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Wisdom)

So there is Grace and Mercy in a sense as well as punishment...but you'll note the punishment is "according to their own imaginations"....

?????

His mercy exceeds His wrath:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the
Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid
down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

How nice for those who didn't get the memo. NOT!

....be not in despair of the mercy of God; verily, God forgives sins, all of them; verily, He is forgiving, merciful.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 39 - The Troops)

Other indications to the contrary.

The NT is a snare to catch out the hypocrites, made by the same YHVH of the Tanakh....

So when many of the quotes you posted come from the false bits in the NT; destruction is said to be on its way soon.

God needs a snare to catch those who are hypocrites? I thought god was all-knowing and would know who's been naughty and who's been nice.

A great deal of cherry picking here. Have we forgotten that Jesus whipped some people in the temple? Have we forgotten his parable of the wedding feast where some people are thrown into outer darkness? Have we forgotten the parable in which the servants who did not receive the messengers of the Master were all killed when he returned? God has not become soft on sinners. Nor have the disasters and judgments on the earth ceased. Did Jesus not prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem? And did it not come to pass?

(Because you failed to address your remark I'm assuming it's directed at my OP. )
You're comparing Jesus driving the money changers from the temple with a whip (it doesn't even say he whipped them) with god's killing of hundreds (thousands?) of innocent people (thinking of the children) "but put to death both man and woman, child and infant." ? AND, the parable of the wedding feast involved the acts of a fictitious king, not god. Thing is, parables are not real incidents but fictions. And believe me, prophesying and event is NOT the same as participating in it.


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[wizanda]

God needs a snare to catch who's a hypocrite and who isn't? I thought god was all-knowing and would know who's been bad and who's been good.

It is more to let them have a sense they're going the right way; Christians are convinced they're following what is good, and expect themselves to be removed from earth.

It states God already knew who would make it from the foundations of the earth; yet it is our choices, that dictate where we end up.

 

[Thanda]

(Because you failed to address your remark I'm assuming it's directed at my OP. )
You're comparing Jesus driving the money changers from the temple with a whip (it doesn't even say he whipped them) with god's killing of hundreds (thousands?) of innocent people (thinking of the children) "but put to death both man and woman, child and infant." AND, the parable of the wedding feast involved the acts of a fictitious king, not god. Thing is, parables are not real incidents but fictions. And believe me, prophesying and event is NOT the same as participating in it.

Jesus only had 33 years to live and only spent 3 years fulfilling his mission. His mission was not to personally bring judgement on the earth at the time. But the time for judgement is coming - and he has declared himself as the guy who will bring that judgement. A careful reading of both the old and new testament reveals that neither Jesus or the God of the old testament are the one dimensional good God bad God you are trying to paint them as. The God of the Old testament shows a great amount of love and mercy and Jesus shows a great amount disdain for evil and sin. God is a dynamic person who responds appropriately to every situation - and since not every situation is the same, his response will not always be the same.

 

[Skwim]

Jesus only had 33 years to live and only spent 3 years fulfilling his mission. His mission was not to personally bring judgement on the earth at the time. But the time for judgement is coming - and he has declared himself as the guy who will bring that judgement. A careful reading of both the old and new testament reveals that neither Jesus or the God of the old testament are the one dimensional good God bad God you are trying to paint them as. The God of the Old testament shows a great amount of love and mercy and Jesus shows a great amount disdain for evil and sin. God is a dynamic person who responds appropriately to every situation - and since not every situation is the same, his response will not always be the same.

Not saying the god of the Old Testament didn't do nice things; however, he did a lot of nasty things---killing children and infants for instance---that he no longer does in the New Testament. This is where the difference lies, and prompts the question, What happened?.


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[Aštra’el]

^
I am reminded of Marduk, Enlil, and Anu

^
I am reminded of Anu and Ahura Mazda

 

[George-ananda]

The only other first-person accounts are apocryphal gospels which were usually not cannonized because of doubtful authenticity (though some because of conflict in message) but those tend to be even worse. Like the infancy gospel of Thomas where a young Jesus killed a kid who shoukder-checked him and blinded a bunch of doubters. So I'd be curious to see what accounts your sources are drawing from which lightens Jesus into a less 'my way or hell way' character. Because from my perspective you gotta do a lot of cherry picking to make Jesus' teachings non-inclusive.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I much prefer non-inclusive Christians and I have a copy of the Jefferson bible...but I just don't think it's consistent with their own scripture. Jefferson had to literally take scissors to hundreds of pages of the bible to make it palatable.

I have seen some of these apocryphal gospels and although I am sure you can find some strange things in there, they are all in all not that bad. Who knows what exactly was eyewitness now. But most of my spiritual understanding comes from my study of the paranormal, Theosophy and eastern/Indian spiritual teachers (and a few western ones along their lines that I like). To me all these things dovetail to a worldview and give us an insight into the nature of the universe and incidently speak of the purpose and mission of Jesus. I believe some more advanced souls can perceive beyond the our normal experience.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"The god of the Old Testament is a god of wrath while the god of the New Testament is a god of love.”

The god of the old testament
..

“Behold, I [god], even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish." (Gen. 6:17)

: “Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground" (Gen. 19:24-25).

“When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girga****es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them” (Deut. 7:1-2,).

“Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you” (Deut. 20:16-17, )

“Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:3,


The god of the New Testament
.......

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
(John 4:8)

8 The Lord is kind and merciful. He is patient and full of love.
9 He does not always criticize. He does not stay angry with us forever.
10 We sinned against him, but he didn’t give us the punishment we deserved.
(Psalm 103:8-10)

"For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving" (1 Timothy 4:4).

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" (James 1:17).

"How abundant are the good things that you have stored up for those who fear you, that you bestow in the sight of all, on those who take refuge in you" (Psalm 31:19).
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So what Happened? He seems to have immediately dropped the bad-guy persona, ceasing to wreak havoc on his creatures, and developed far more empathetic and understanding character. Did someone have a sit-down with Jehovah? Or maybe getting together with Mary relieved a lot of the stress he was under.



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I guess you know, but 2 of the Scriptures you quoted in 'the god of the New Testament' list, are from the Psalms, in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT)

Regarding the Greek Scriptures (NT), you overlooked passages like 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, and Revelation 21:8

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm not one either, and I doubt the authenticity of the gospels as an accurate depiction of the life and teachings of the man. But it and the apocryphal gospels are the only so-called eyewitness accounts of Jesus' teachings. And from those accounts I do not think Jesus was a very peaceful man, but taught that 'truth' should divide people and even families ('did not come to bring peace but a sword to divide man against his father, daughter against mkther, brother against brother') and that those on the wrong side of the divide would be suffering.

In other words, if the only first person accounts of Jesus we have are to be believed, I don't think Jesus was that great a guy or his position that laudable in the grand scheme of things.

... I don't think Jesus was a very peaceful man, but taught that 'truth' should divide people and even families ('did not come to bring peace but a sword to divide man against his father, daughter against mkther, brother against brother') and that those on the wrong side of the divide would be suffering.

But the Scriptures do portray Jesus as very peaceable. So let's reconcile the rest: it's not that truth 'should' divide people, but that it 'would' divide people.

He very clearly stated, the world would hate His followers, not the other way around. And the hatred would extend to families. So those who suffer would be His followers. (Although very few suffer hatred today, not in the way Jesus indicated.)

 

[Skwim]

I guess you know, but 2 of the Scriptures you quoted in 'the god of the New Testament' list, are from the Psalms, in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT)

Mea culpa. Thanks for the correction.

Regarding the Greek Scriptures (NT), you overlooked passages like 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, and Revelation 21:8[/QUOTE]
Yeah, those are darn harsh, but for whatever reason Christians don't take the end times into account when characterizing god: "The god of the Old Testament is a god of wrath while the god of the New Testament is a god of love.” And I have to agree with them that other than planning one hellacious end time, god doesn't exhibit the wrath in the NT that he does in the OT.


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[arthra]

Not saying the god of the Old Testament didn't do nice things; however, he did a lot of nasty things---killing children and infants for instance---that he no longer does in the New Testament. This is where the difference lies, and prompts the question, What happened?.

You seem to be ignoring the element of choice man has to ignore or accept the Divine summons.

 

[Skwim]

You seem to be ignoring the element of choice man has to ignore or accept the Divine summons.

So did this happen to change after Jesus came on the scene? And by the by, not everyone gets the word or is persuaded by it.


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[rusra02]

Jehovah does not change. His qualities of love, justice, wisdom, and power have always been in perfect balance, and always will be. Even the scripture so often quoted to display God's love displays this balance, IMO. John 3:16 says; "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." God's superlative love is demonstrated by the gift of his Son, through whom we can gain everlasting life. I think Jehovah's justice is revealed in that those not accepting Christ's sacrifice will be destroyed. Verse 18 expands on that thought: "Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

 

[metis]

I think that the differences of opinion that we typically run across on this topic largely can be viewed in the context of whether one considers the Bible to be "divinely inspired" and/or "inerrant", and the reality is that there literally is no logical way that either can be proven. Let me take this out of the Judeo-Christian context for a minute to demonstrate the point: Is the Bhagavad Gita divinely inspired and/or inerrant?

OK, what will you look for in terms of evidence in order to establish either point as being a "yes" or a "no", while at the same time making certain that one keeps personal opinion out of the picture?

 

[ronandcarol]

He is a never changing God, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
He still is a God of wrath towards sin. But He still loves the sinner and
wants to save us from satan's wrath today and to come.

ronandcarol

 

[Skwim]

He is a never changing God, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
He still is a God of wrath towards sin.

And toward those who don't sin. All the innocent children and infants he wanted killed.

. . . put to death both man and woman, child and infant . . .
(1 Sam.15:3)
​

Of course, if you included throwing a tantrum and pooping in one's diaper sins, perhaps children and infants are indeed sinners.
And if, as you say, god hasn't changed, there are still circumstances today that would goad him into demanding that children and infants be killed. Nice guy. By the way, anyone hear god giving anyone such commands lately? Like, "Kill the babies. KILL the babies!" ?


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[arthra]

So did this happen to change after Jesus came on the scene? And by the by, not everyone gets the word or is persuaded by it.


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Well in my Faith Jesus promised return has already happened ... more than once.. and also there have been more Manifestations than recounted in recorded history.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

(King James Bible, Romans)

13. That Day will man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back. 14. Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
15. Even though he were to put up his excuses.

Qur'an Surih 75

But it's also true in this later dispensation:

But in a place where the commands of a Prophet are not known, and where the people do not act in conformity with the divine instructions, such as the command of Christ to return good for evil, but act according to the desires of nature -- that is, if they torment those who torment them -- from the point of view of religion they are excused because the divine command has not been delivered to them. Though they do not deserve mercy and beneficence, nevertheless, God treats them with mercy and forgives them.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 266

The tenderness of Thy mercy, O my Lord, surpasseth the fury of Thy wrath, and Thy loving-kindness exceedeth Thy hot displeasure, and Thy grace excelleth Thy justice.

~ Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 136