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What happens when we die?

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

Here's what the Baha'i scriptures have to say on this topic:

“Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”


-- (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 153-154)



“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.


“The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.


“The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.


“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 169-171)



“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 155-157)


Best, :)

Bruce
 

Cacafire

Member
What happens after death?

What = Indicating lack of knowledge. A desire to get knowledge.

Happens = an event. All events are percieved through senses. The human mind is trapped in the viel of subjectivity, and thus can not every percieve a truly "objective" event.

event = change in form, sequence, or interpretation.

After death = limits the event in question to follow a certain event(the stopping of brain function).

It would appear that while language enables us to ask questions like this, there is no meaningful answer, as the linguistics of the question do not map out to empirical observation. For example, the event in question is the stopping of events. The absence of events. But the term after applies to sequence, which in itself, constitutes an event. Furthermore, the absence of events does NOT constitute an event. It constitutes an ABSENCE OF EVENTS.

The question, while grammatically correct, does not correlate with reality, and thus has no meaning(which is also a socio-linguistically constructed term, I might add).

The best way to view is simply the absence of perception of events, no?
The brain continues to fire for several hours after clinical death, through which a NDE has been reported to occur. This is fine, because the firings allow the person to still experience events. But when the brain at last, completely shuts down?

exactly.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Sorry, there is much more evidence suporting my postiion than yours, nonexistence awaits us all.

Then instead of telling me of such existence, why don't you provide me with? Is it actual scientific studies, or just your own pet theory like mine, in which case it has no more credibility? Not to mention check your spelling.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Then instead of telling me of such existence, why don't you provide me with? Is it actual scientific studies, or just your own pet theory like mine, in which case it has no more credibility? Not to mention check your spelling.


Again, if your assertion is there is a spirit world, it is a positive assertion and requires proof. Please send me a postcard after you're dead, then I'll believe you.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Again, if your assertion is there is a spirit world, it is a positive assertion and requires proof. Please send me a postcard after you're dead, then I'll believe you.

If that's the best you can do, then I'm going to assume you have no real evidence to back up your claim any more than I do. My assertion that there is a spirit world does not require proof because I have none; it is based on my personal experience and some research. Therefore, both our claims are nothing more than pet theories.

You don't know, I don't know. But what separates us is that you are more zealous in what you think than most religious people I've met, but I've noticed that you rarely back up your statements. I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that there is no spirit world, and that you could be right. But it is nothing more than a possibility.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
If that's the best you can do, then I'm going to assume you have no real evidence to back up your claim any more than I do. My assertion that there is a spirit world does not require proof because I have none; it is based on my personal experience and some research. Therefore, both our claims are nothing more than pet theories.

You don't know, I don't know. But what separates us is that you are more zealous in what you think than most religious people I've met, but I've noticed that you rarely back up your statements. I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that there is no spirit world, and that you could be right. But it is nothing more than a possibility.

Or in assigning validity and meaning only to things that are relavant and can be proven.

There is also a chance that Satan is god and god is satan or that Zeus is really god afterall or if only I was buried with some gold coins I could have paid the ferryman.

Your argument that he has to prove your assertion is only true if there is some evidence to support your statement in the first place.

I found a pot of mithril and gold coins but they were eaten by giant bats that came from a 1,000 foot arborvite bush. I ran from the hungry bats and narrowly avoided a meteor which destroyed the bats and the tree and left a small 1 foot crater filled with the molten metal all fused as a perfect sphere. That sphere glowwed orange and red in color and seemed to radiate A LOT of heat. i kept my distance but that is why I can tell this story. A blue beam came from a dark cloud... greyer then normal clouds and the glowing sphere rose in the blue light and disappeared into the cloud which then faded away. However the cloud spoke as it was dissapating and said that I will see the sphere again when I die.

Both your claim of the spirit world and my story can not be disproven. Specifically I framed my theory in the same way as you. Unscientific and one that cant be proven.

Claiming I must provide evidence to disprove your theory is just unlogical. You have the capacity to dream up whatever you want but without evidence we dont have to consider it. In this particular case... you didnt dream it up your parroting anothers persons dreamed up evidence.

You can claim fire is hot and I have the right to deny that. If through evidence it is proven that fire is indeed hot then your not claiming it. Your making an observation. Of the spirit world you are not observing anything... your claiming and then saying since we dont know my point of view is just as equal as yours....
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Or in assigning validity and meaning only to things that are relavant and can be proven.

There is also a chance that Satan is god and god is satan or that Zeus is really god afterall or if only I was buried with some gold coins I could have paid the ferryman.

Your argument that he has to prove your assertion is only true if there is some evidence to support your statement in the first place.

I found a pot of mithril and gold coins but they were eaten by giant bats that came from a 1,000 foot arborvite bush. I ran from the hungry bats and narrowly avoided a meteor which destroyed the bats and the tree and left a small 1 foot crater filled with the molten metal all fused as a perfect sphere. That sphere glowwed orange and red in color and seemed to radiate A LOT of heat. i kept my distance but that is why I can tell this story. A blue beam came from a dark cloud... greyer then normal clouds and the glowing sphere rose in the blue light and disappeared into the cloud which then faded away. However the cloud spoke as it was dissapating and said that I will see the sphere again when I die.

Both your claim of the spirit world and my story can not be disproven. Specifically I framed my theory in the same way as you. Unscientific and one that cant be proven.

Claiming I must provide evidence to disprove your theory is just unlogical. You have the capacity to dream up whatever you want but without evidence we dont have to consider it. In this particular case... you didnt dream it up your parroting anothers persons dreamed up evidence.

You can claim fire is hot and I have the right to deny that. If through evidence it is proven that fire is indeed hot then your not claiming it. Your making an observation. Of the spirit world you are not observing anything... your claiming and then saying since we dont know my point of view is just as equal as yours....

I know. I know. The same can be said about logician's statement, Balance.

The truth is, I don't want everything I do to be scientific. That's BORING. I'm an artist. I tell stories. I tell lies, and within those lies, the truth comes out. There's nothing scientific about truth. That's fact. There's a difference between fact and truth. And when it comes to death, there are neither facts nor truths pertaining to it.
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
If that's the best you can do, then I'm going to assume you have no real evidence to back up your claim any more than I do. My assertion that there is a spirit world does not require proof because I have none; it is based on my personal experience and some research. Therefore, both our claims are nothing more than pet theories.

You don't know, I don't know. But what separates us is that you are more zealous in what you think than most religious people I've met, but I've noticed that you rarely back up your statements. I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that there is no spirit world, and that you could be right. But it is nothing more than a possibility.

Speaking of being zealous.
 

idea

Question Everything
Remember when you were a kid and you fell asleep somewhere – at another house or something, and while you were sleeping your parents carried you into your room and tucked you in. You wake up in the morning looking around wondering where you are and how you got there… I think it will be a little bit like that.


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be hanged.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Okay, let me rectify some of the things I said last night. I was tired, and not thinking very clearly. Crystalonyx is right, I was being very zealous and passionate. So, Logician and BalanceFx, I apologize if I offended either of you.

I believe what I believe, and I don't think I conveyed very clearly that I don't care if others believe in the spirit world or not. I don't need to prove anything, because I was speaking from my beliefs, in which the spirit world is a possibility, not a fact. A fact would be that I am typing on a Logitech keyboard connected to a Toshiba laptop that is a titanic POS. That is a fact. If I conveyed the spirit world as being a fact, that was not my meaning, or at least, that is not what I normally believe. (sometimes my beliefs change depending on my state of mind... VERY annoying) I am more than willing to accept the possibility that I'm wrong and that the spirit world doesn't exist at all. I don't believe that myself, but it is a very real possibility. I don't think science as it is now, very primitive, can really say for sure, any more than science a hundred years ago couldn't really say whether or not space travel was possible, or that two thousand years ago, scientists had no reason not to think the Earth was the center of the universe; according to the instruments they had at the time, that was a fact.

My point is, science can't know at the moment because there hasn't really been a study to my knowledge on what happens to our conscious when we die. (correct me if I'm wrong there, please)

Our mathematical equations at the moment are inadequate to study what has been for countless years called spirits because they would not physically exist in the same three dimensions we live on. Mathematics at the moment can only study the three dimensions, that is, the X, Y, and Z axises. I know advanced math is starting to find the others, but that is still very much in its infancy, and can't say anything yet. I do think mathematics are wonderful, and important in understanding the physical world, and hopefully beyond in the future. (although I have discovered a flaw in the English version of mathematics... I'll give a hint as to what it is, it involves multiplication. not in the math itself, but how its worded)

I also asked a question to Logician, and he didn't answer me. Where does the energy that enables us to live come from? I don't know if he meant to, but it seemed to me he avoided the question. So, I ask it again.
 

idea

Question Everything
Where does the energy that enables us to live come from?

What makes you think energy is the same as consciousness? not an attack, just curious, I don't know the answer, It may or may not be - We can hook a dead person up to electrodes and make them walk, has anyone been able to plug them in and get their mind back?

for me, spirit + body = soul
I don't know what the spirit is made up of, we are told that it does consist of a type of matter, we are not given the details of what type of matter though...

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
What makes you think energy is the same as consciousness? not an attack, just curious, I don't know the answer, It may or may not be - We can hook a dead person up to electrodes and make them walk, has anyone been able to plug them in and get their mind back?

for me, spirit + body = soul
I don't know what the spirit is made up of, we are told that it does consist of a type of matter, we are not given the details of what type of matter though...

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

It's just a pet theory, mostly based on what I understand ghosts to be: clouds of electromagnetic energy. This energy contains a conscience, so I've "concluded" that our spirit is this energy. I don't know why it cannot be used for reviving the dead, except that I could very well be wrong. But I do know that it is a scientific fact that within our brains is hundreds of electrodes and whatnot all running around like crazy.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
I also asked a question to Logician, and he didn't answer me. Where does the energy that enables us to live come from? I don't know if he meant to, but it seemed to me he avoided the question. So, I ask it again.

And I could answer this with my understanding of biology, caloric intake and metabolism but I will ask... If you do not know, does that then imply god did it?

God did lots of stuff we dont understand... until we understand it and then all of the sudden god did something else?

What are you driving at here?

And no worries mate, I am insulted, ignored and abused all the time... I dont take it seriosly but I appreciate the apology.
 

blackout

Violet.
Well, what I see, is that we are ever and always shaping a new reality for ourselves
(or not) according to our own desires/vision/will/mindset
as put forth by our ACTUAL(izing) "movements" (or belief in action)
within/as one with, the transformable, ever changing fabric of life
that is the Uni(ie ONE)Verse.
 
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rocka21

Brother Rock
I never understood as a christian, why so many of " us" , pray for long life, give god thanks for every living day, have praise reports on how God " healed " us and saved us from that car crash, near miss.

If heaven is with Jesus, no tears, pain, streets of gold and mansions, why not all die faster to get there? We hold on as long as we can. LOL...... " love ya lord, but don't want to see ya yet>"
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Well, what I see, is that we are ever and always shaping a new reality for ourselves
(or not) according to our own desires/vision/will/mindset
as put forth by our ACTUAL(izing) "movements" (or belief in action)
within/as one with, the transformable, ever changing fabric of life
that is the Uni(ie ONE)Verse.

you might like e.e.cummings i guess



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