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What Happens When You Die?

godnotgod

Thou art That
[/color]

Of course it is made of "parts".
You are sitting in front of a computer now, right?
Are you the computer? Can you not detach yourself from the computer, and leave the house without the computer fallowing you? If the computer drops, while you are away, do you feel, that something of you has just been broken?
So, of course the universe consists of parts. The universe ITSELF is the arrangement of these parts. It's the entirety of these parts.
And that's why I'm part of the universe. But I'm not all of the universe. I might directly and indirectly be connected to all the parts of the universe, but I certainly am seperate from these other parts.
Not seperate from the universe though.

If the parts you refer to are of the universe, you cannot simultaneously be and not be separate from those parts. "parts" is only a conceptual reality. We call the universe a 'uni-verse' because it is everything, but it is also one entity, ie; 'uni-verse'. So from the point of view of the universe, there are no such 'parts'. That is just something your rational mind creates in order to deal with what it thinks it sees on a perceptual level.

Just you're being here means you are touching upon everything else in the universe. Everything is totally interconnected, but just because you do not feel the computer falling does not mean you are not connected to it in some way. But what we are discussing here is manifested form, when the real universal inter-connection lies underneath all forms. What I am saying to you is that consciousness underlies everything, even though it is not apparent to you, and it is not because you are looking at things via your altered consciousness, which tells you there are parts to the universe and that you are separate from those other parts. Once again, the universe is neither object nor artifact, but that is how you are presenting it.

Because the true Reality is that everything is actually consciousness, and the fact that consciousness is not in Time, Space, or Causation, it means that your consciousness and mine are, in actual fact, the entire universe. It only seems that we possess an individual consciousness entrapped within a local bag of skin called "I", when there is actually no such thing as "I". IOW, the true nature of consciousness is non-local. Even though there are at any one time, millions of wave-forms being manifested upon the ocean's surface, each one somewhat different than all the others, they are all made of the same singular substance: water; and that is precisely the case for human consciousness: it is, in reality, universal consciousness. The non-locality of the human brain has been proven in a study (Jacobo-Grinsberg) that has since been replicated many times.

Whether you like it or not, you are completely (ie 100%) and seamlessly integrated with everything else as one universe. To try to say you are a 'part' of the universe is to create a subject/object; observer/observed condition. When I say that you ARE the universe, I do not mean just your form, but your consciousness as well. IOW, you are a total action of the universe itself, just as each ocean wave is a total action of the ocean.


"You are not just the drop in the ocean; you are the Mighty Ocean itself"

Rumi


Being alive implies self-replication and things like metabolism, the input and output of resources.
As far as I know, this does not apply to the universes. So no, the universe is not alive, at least not in any sense that complies with the scientific definition of "life".
The same with consciousness. I don't see how the universe (the ENTIRE thing) can be consciouss. I am. You are. So parts of the universe are. But other parts aren't.
F.e. If somebody on the other side of the planet loses consciousnes, this doesn't mean that I lose consciousnes too. Which shows clearly, that the individual parts that are conscious do not share this consciousnes.


As I said, the scientific definition of 'life' is a highly controlled and sculpted one, designed for a particular kind of result. It is not the definition I am using. Did you read the quote I provided by the physicist Freeman Dyson on the consciousness of the atom?

If you are a conscious being, and are 100% integrated with the universe, and the universe is made up of all things, including space, then it must be conscious as well, because there is no difference between you and the universe. Do you get this, or not?



As I've said, I don't know of any scientist who doesn't see himself as a part of the universe. This makes no sense. Do you know any people who consider themself to be seperate from the universe? I don't even know how this could be possible.


The problem with your 'understanding' is that it is an intellectual one, and not an experiential one.

The very nature of the scientific method is to dissect and observe. In so doing, it sets the observer apart from the observed, ie; 'the universe', and sees it composed of separate 'parts'. Probably most scientists would adopt your view, that they are only 'part' of the universe, which is still means having a separate identity. That identity is an illusion. But this illusion of separation is not just peculiar to science; almost all humans maintain the illusion of an "I"-self, and in so doing, operate, perhaps unwittingly, on the basis of subject/object; observer/observed. Only the mystic can be said to have attained a condition of unaltered consciousness by which it is realized that he and the universe are, in actuality, one and the same.



" that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what [is] called the Absolute.

Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time.

And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because division and separation occur only in space.

And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it.

Now "changeless", "infinite", and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements.

If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else.

There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

from: Equations of Maya, by astronomer John Dobson

The Equations of Maya by John Dobson



What justifies that claim? As I've said, I see very clear evidence for all of our parts being part of the universe, but I don't see any evidence to then say that therefore we ARE the universe.


see previous input.

The universe existed long before we existed, even long before conscious things existed. Therefore, consciousness seems to be an emergent property of things in the universe, not a necessary attribute of the universe itself. ESPECIALLY not of the entire universe!


You're looking at it in a linear manner. Time is merely conceptual. Without this concept in place, the universe is no longer some-thing, but an action, and you and I are 100% involved in that action, every bit as much as the ocean wave is an activity of the ocean itself. IOW, you and I and the universe are occurring NOW, as it always has occurred NOW, but not in time. You see, it is an event in consciousness. But because our particular consciousness has been highly conditioned, we see it as comprised of material 'things' and 'parts'.

I am afraid that this so called 'emergent' 'theory' of consciousness is only a weak hypothesis in the scientific world. Via of this 'theory', please explain, if you can, how non-material consciousness can emerge from the material world.

(Actually, it is not that consciousness is an attribute of the universe, but that the universe is an attribute of consciousness !!!, making perfect sense in that consciousness is not in Time, Space, or Causation, and neither was the condition pre-existing the Big Bang. More to the point, the BB is not in Time, Space, or Causation either !!!)


No, not necessarily. There are scientific models that don't take things like f.e. causality as a given, especially in the realms of quantum mechanics.
...and in QM, time and space are a big problem as well.

And what's the evidence to support that claim?
It sees things as they are simply because there is nothing in the way, such as thought, concept, belief, idea, doctrine, or notion to alter the view. It's the realization that YOU are in fact, THAT.
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey GNG,
I just thought of your entry about the ocean,
in reference to walking on the beach, as I am oft doing, when while walking and picking up a seashell,
listening closely to the sound that comes from the shell,
is the whole ocean, and that sound will be there long after I die.
I wonder if there are seashells in heaven, I'll have to ask Thief or Savage or someone,
I bet they'll know.
~
'mud
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
hey GNG,
I just thought of your entry about the ocean,
in reference to walking on the beach, as I am oft doing, when while walking and picking up a seashell,
listening closely to the sound that comes from the shell,
is the whole ocean, and that sound will be there long after I die.
I wonder if there are seashells in heaven, I'll have to ask Thief or Savage or someone,
I bet they'll know.
~
'mud

The word....I AM..... will echo forever!
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
hey GNG,
I just thought of your entry about the ocean,
in reference to walking on the beach, as I am oft doing, when while walking and picking up a seashell,
listening closely to the sound that comes from the shell,
is the whole ocean, and that sound will be there long after I die.
I wonder if there are seashells in heaven, I'll have to ask Thief or Savage or someone,
I bet they'll know.
~
'mud

If you listen to the sound that comes from the seashell even more intently, it is possible to awaken within the dream you are in, and realize you already are in Heaven.

This is the best of all possible worlds. Don't be misled.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian

If you listen to the sound that comes from the seashell even more intently, it is possible to awaken within the dream you are in, and realize you already are in Heaven.

This is the best of all possible worlds. Don't be misled.

Then...literally....
better to listen to an empty shell.......than 'you'.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Then...literally....
better to listen to an empty shell.......than 'you'.

Yes, assuming you are really listening.

But are you really listening, or just hearing what you want to hear, and then parroting words such as "I Am", and blah blah blah, without really knowing what you are saying?
(I suspect that if you did know, you would go running naked into the streets, screaming at the top of your lungs).
:eek:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yes, assuming you are really listening.

But are you really listening, or just hearing what you want to hear, and then parroting words such as "I Am", and blah blah blah, without really knowing what you are saying?
(I suspect that if you did know, you would go running naked into the streets, screaming at the top of your lungs).
:eek:

...and you have practiced what you preach?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This I will never believe. The body forms a linear existence which in turn forms.....you.

There is not much point in generating billions of individuals only to have that quality lost in death.

You will keep yourself.
ALL that you ever thought or felt.

And heaven will deal with it.

I don't accept that I am either my mind or body. These to me are temporary attachments. Though actually I don't feel so attached to either anymore.

While I "recall" the lives of others, there is no connection of body or mind to these other lives. These seem to me real experiences.

What I have not experienced is a heaven or hell in the Christian sense. I'm not even sure the Bible supports these concepts of heaven or hell. Believing in them seems only supported by the desire to believe in them.
 

If the parts you refer to are of the universe, you cannot simultaneously be and not be separate from those parts. "parts" is only a conceptual reality. We call the universe a 'uni-verse' because it is everything, but it is also one entity, ie; 'uni-verse'. So from the point of view of the universe, there are no such 'parts'. That is just something your rational mind creates in order to deal with what it thinks it sees on a perceptual level.


I reject your assertion that the universe is an "entity", at least in the way that I understand the word "entity", which implies a mind or consciousness.
I also reject the assertion that the universe has a "point of view".
But even if it did, this wouldn't change the fact that I was a part of that.
My cells are parts of me, even though I'm made out of cells. To say that I'm not a part of the universe either implies that I'm the entire universe (which is rediculous), or that I'm not part of the universe (which make equally little sense).


Just you're being here means you are touching upon everything else in the universe.

Indirectly, sure.
Over many, many, many stages I'm connected to f.e. you. But this doesn't make me you, and it doesn't make me everything I'm connected to.
The cells in my hand are connected to the rest of the body and yet they are not the rest of my body. They are part of my body, but that's all they are. A part.
And in the same way I am part of the universe. But to say that I am the universe... sorry, I have no idea how that statement makes even sense! Do you believe that YOU are the universe?

Everything is totally interconnected, but just because you do not feel the computer falling does not mean you are not connected to it in some way.

I never said that we were not connected to everything in the universe, I say that there is a difference between being interconnected with everything and being everything. And if you are not saying that we are everything, then we are PART of the universe, and not the universe itself. By definition, actually.

What I am saying to you is that consciousness underlies everything, even though it is not apparent to you,...

It's not apparent to me, because I don't see any evidence for it.
And this is, what I've been asking for since the beginning of this convesation: Please provide evidence that there is an underlying consciousness to the universe.


...and it is not because you are looking at things via your altered consciousness, which tells you there are parts to the universe and that you are separate from those other parts.

I am not saying that I am seperate from those parts in the sense that I'm not connected to those parts, I'm saying I'm seperate to those parts, because I am NOT those parts.

Once again, the universe is neither object nor artifact, but that is how you are presenting it.


No, I'm not. Never have.
I say the universe is the ENTIRETY of everything. But the things IN the universe are the parts that make up the universe.
And so far, you seem to agree, because you do acknowledge that I am connected to everything in the universe... and where there are connections, there are different parts, because if there weren't different parts, you wouldn't need any connections. Connections CONNECT things.
YOU said:
"Everything is interconnected", which IS an acknowledgement, that there are different parts that need connecting.

(cont.)
 
...
[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Because the true Reality is that everything is actually consciousness, and the fact that consciousness is not in Time, Space, or Causation, it means that your consciousness and mine are, in actual fact, the entire universe.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

And again, that's the assertion I want you to demonstrate evidence for.
Please stop just claiming that, and make an actual point that demonstrates the truth of that claim.

[FONT=&quot]It only seems that we possess an individual consciousness entrapped within a local bag of skin called "I", when there is actually no such thing as "I". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I don't see your computer at the moment. You do.
So yes. There is an I. And there is a you. If there was no "I", and everything was just one consciousness, I would be able to see, hear and feel everything, every other entity on this planet can see, hear or feel.
But this is obviously not the case, therefore there is an I.
There has to be.
"I think therefore I am."
One of the most basic rules, which I really don't consider disputable.
This, btw, wouldn't even change if there was an underlying consciousness to the universe (for which I don't see any evidence). "I" would still be "I", because "I" have my own experience which is seperate to everybody elses.

[FONT=&quot] IOW, the true nature of consciousness is non-local.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Consciousness, as far as we can tell so far, is the product of a brain. Brains are local.
Please present evidence that consciousness can be none-local, and therefore independant of brains.

[FONT=&quot]The non-locality of the human brain has been proven in a study (Jacobo-Grinsberg) that has since been replicated many times.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


Please present the paper or any source for this.
Because I can't find any.
All I can find are studies that demonstrate that things created by the brain (f.e. waves) don't need to be directly located to the brain. But that the brain doesn't need to be local seems a very extrem claim.

Whether you like it or not, you are completely (ie 100%) and seamlessly integrated with everything else as one universe.

This has nothing to do with me liking or not liking it. I'm not even contesting that, I never have.
I contest your assertion, that I therefore AM the universe, and not just part of it.

To try to say you are a 'part' of the universe is to create a subject/object; observer/observed condition.

Yes, and this is an objective reality. I can observe things in the universe, and there is an object/subject situation, because I am not all these other things in the universe, I'm just one thing among many others inside the universe.

When I say that you ARE the universe, I do not mean just your form, but your consciousness as well. IOW, you are a total action of the universe itself, just as each ocean wave is a total action of the ocean.


Yes, but not each wave is the entire ocean. Each wave is a part of the ocean.

"You are not just the drop in the ocean; you are the Mighty Ocean itself"


Yep. Strongly disagree with that. There is no evidence that this is true. I'm not the universe. I live inside the universe and am made up of stuff in the universe, but there is more to the universe than just me.



As I said, the scientific definition of 'life' is a highly controlled and sculpted one, designed for a particular kind of result. It is not the definition I am using. Did you read the quote I provided by the physicist Freeman Dyson on the consciousness of the atom?


I don't think so. Was it in a comment you've responded to me? Because I've read all of those, but I don't think I came across any quote from him.
Also: Fine, if you use a different defintion for "life", then feel free to do so.
But you need to define it first, otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you are a conscious being, and are 100% integrated with the universe, and the universe is made up of all things, including space, then it must be conscious as well, because there is no difference between you and the universe. Do you get this, or not?



This is a non-sequitor.
"The house is made up of all rooms, including the basement. The basement is cold. Therefore, the house must be cold as well."
No. Just because on thing of an entirety of things has an attribute doesn't mean that the entirety also shares this attribute.
I agree that the universe contains things that are conscious, but the universe as an entirety doesn't seem to be conscious. If you claim it is, please provide evidence for that.

(cont.)
[/FONT]
 
...
The problem with your 'understanding' is that it is an intellectual one, and not an experiential one.


All my understanding is intellectual. I don't think any other way of understanding is even possible.


The very nature of the scientific method is to dissect and observe. In so doing, it sets the observer apart from the observed, ie; 'the universe', and sees it composed of separate 'parts'.

No, I don't see the universe as seperate. But I see things INSIDE the universe as "seperate" (and AGAIN: Not seperate in "completly unconected", but different parts, that are connected... as you yourself admited when you said that we are interconnected, because if we weren't individual parts, we wouldn't need any connections).

Probably most scientists would adopt your view, that they are only 'part' of the universe, which is still means having a separate identity.


Seperate ideantities from things inside the universe, sure.
And again, this is demonstrable. I am not my computer, even though I am connected to my computer.

That identity is an illusion.


Actually, no.
It's demonstrable.
If you think that you have evidence to show that identity is an illusion, please provide that evidence.

But this illusion of separation is not just peculiar to science; almost all humans maintain the illusion of an "I"-self, and in so doing, operate, perhaps unwittingly, on the basis of subject/object; observer/observed.

Wait... and you don't?
You do NOT see yourself as having a seperate identity from everything else in the universe? Then why are you talking to me? There is no necessity! I don't exist, I'm the same consciousness as you. Everything you know, I already know too. That's the conclusion from what you are saying. The fact taht you are still trying to explain anything to me (or anybody else) shows that you understand that we are NOT the same things. That we in fact do have different identities and consciousness.


see previous input.



You're looking at it in a linear manner. Time is merely conceptual. Without this concept in place, the universe is no longer some-thing, but an action, and you and I are 100% involved in that action, every bit as much as the ocean wave is an activity of the ocean itself.


It's the bizarrest thing that you keep coming back to the ocean and wave things... because then you agree with me!
A wave is NOT the ocean! And it's not all other waves either! It's a part of the ocean, and connected to everything of the ocean, but it is neither the ocean itself nor everything else in the ocean. In the same thing that I might be part of the universe and connected to everything else in the universe, but I'm neither the universe itself, nor am I everything else in the universe.



I am afraid that this so called 'emergent' 'theory' of consciousness is only a weak hypothesis in the scientific world. Via of this 'theory', please explain, if you can, how non-material consciousness can emerge from the material world.


In the same way that music can.
Music isn't just the instrument that plays it. It isn't just one tune that moves through the medium of the air, and interacts with an ear. It's the combination of all these things.
To say, that the idea that consciousness is an emergent things is just a weak hypothesis goes against pretty much everything we know about consciousness. You might disagree with our current understanding of consciousness, but given that so far you have only asserted the key things of your hypothesis (of an underlying consciousness), and also given that your entire argument seems to be extremly incoherent (you are saying that we are not parts of the universe, but then you say that we are all connected which necessitates us being individual parts) concept, I don't think that you have a strong case against the idea of an emergent consciousness.

(Actually, it is not that consciousness is an attribute of the universe, but that the universe is an attribute of consciousness !!!, making perfect sense in that consciousness is not in Time, Space, or Causation, and neither was the condition pre-existing the Big Bang. More to the point, the BB is not in Time, Space, or Causation either !!!)


I don't think that it makes sense, and I don't see any evidence for it.
 

DanielR

Active Member
Thanks for answering my question gng! :)

There's only one problem I have, I have discussed this in several other topics already, I'm just adding my two cents. Why am I me and not you? The problem I'm having is probably how I asked the question since the I is illusionary but still this makes me think why am I me and not someone else. Why am I this particular wave?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Thanks for answering my question gng! :)

There's only one problem I have, I have discussed this in several other topics already, I'm just adding my two cents. Why am I me and not you? The problem I'm having is probably how I asked the question since the I is illusionary but still this makes me think why am I me and not someone else. Why am I this particular wave?

You are wearing a different pot. The pot being mind & body which you currently identify with. Your attachment to the pot prevents you from letting go of your current perception of being you.

However...

If this were true, if you could become detached enough from your current "wave", shouldn't you be able to experience the ocean from the perspective of any wave? You should be able to step into anyone's life shouldn't you?

We should be able to flit around from person to person. Yet it seems we are trapped is this pot until the pot dies and the soul is released to inhabit a new pot.

This would seem to be the conclusion of what's being argued.

I've not come across an explanation of why this doesn't occur or story, belief, myth of it occurring.
 

DanielR

Active Member
You are wearing a different pot. The pot being mind & body which you currently identify with. Your attachment to the pot prevents you from letting go of your current perception of being you.

However...

If this were true, if you could become detached enough from your current "wave", shouldn't you be able to experience the ocean from the perspective of any wave? You should be able to step into anyone's life shouldn't you?

We should be able to flit around from person to person. Yet it seems we are trapped is this pot until the pot dies and the soul is released to inhabit a new pot.

This would seem to be the conclusion of what's being argued.

I've not come across an explanation of why this doesn't occur or story, belief, myth of it occurring.


Thanks for answering :)

From what I've read here gng does not really believe in reincarnation although I think reincarnation could be a solution to this "problem".

I don't believe in reincarnation either, but I like the pot-sun-reflection metaphor myself, don't know if you were referring to that.

How I see it is that the reflection in the pot is the feeling of 'I AM', the feeling of presence, this feeling is still not an 'I'. The 'I' is something that develops over time as one grows from a child to an adolescent etc.

Now IMHO when the pot breaks meaning the body dies, the reflection disappears as well. The five elements mingle with the environment and a new body is formed with a new reflection, so again (IMHO) there really is no rebirth.

Another possibility is solipsism. Some nondual schools propose this, and there some truth to it. But I won't go into that :D haha

Regards ;)
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Thanks for answering :)

From what I've read here gng does not really believe in reincarnation although I think reincarnation could be a solution to this "problem".

I don't believe in reincarnation either, but I like the pot-sun-reflection metaphor myself, don't know if you were referring to that.

How I see it is that the reflection in the pot is the feeling of 'I AM', the feeling of presence, this feeling is still not an 'I'. The 'I' is something that develops over time as one grows from a child to an adolescent etc.


So the body manifests the mind and the mind manifest the "I"?

The "I" self has an apparent existence separate from the mind and the mind has an apparent separate existence from the body.

I observe both the mind and body. Seems obvious that I couldn't observe either if I existed as either. The "I" seems impossible to observe. To observe something requires separation from it.

Can the I exist without a mind manifesting it? I don't know. I've no knowledge of non-existence. Except the "i" disappears at night only to reappear the next morning.

So if the "I" is a manifestation of the mind. If we took all of the information from the mind and downloaded into computer memory Would the I continue to exist? You have the hardware(body) and software(mind). Would this manifest the "i"?

Would you wake up and say "Hey! What happen to my old physical body?

Now IMHO when the pot breaks meaning the body dies, the reflection disappears as well. The five elements mingle with the environment and a new body is formed with a new reflection, so again (IMHO) there really is no rebirth.
What if there was a process to store all of the old software and download into a new body?

Another possibility is solipsism. Some nondual schools propose this, and there some truth to it. But I won't go into that :D haha

Regards ;)
It's about trying to identify exactly who or what we are.

I'm not yet convinced that death is the end. Maybe death will convince me, or maybe it won't. :shrug:
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Thanks for answering my question gng! :)

There's only one problem I have, I have discussed this in several other topics already, I'm just adding my two cents. Why am I me and not you? The problem I'm having is probably how I asked the question since the I is illusionary but still this makes me think why am I me and not someone else. Why am I this particular wave?

Do you subscribe in any way to the idea that THAT may be playing a cosmic game of Hide and Seek with itself?
 
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