What Happens When You Die?

[Thief]

Uniqueness within a species in not uncommon think now they believe chickens are unique over 9 billion a year we consume .A grain of sand is unique also .
I don't think uniqueness proves afterlife.
The mystery of the game ? I do not know what it is, but i have good ideas of what it can't be based on simple observation of reality .
We are here to learn ? I assume you refer to learn the ways of a righteous path , control the un needed need as per say . Any other reasons to learn would be selfish and contrary to the level of existence your trying to achieve ?.
Ok your scenario one of us achieves whatever and gets eternal life after death in the kingdom of heaven . Lets for arguments sake say its myself , i get restless ,'eternity not really for me but i will go there once .
By now if proved , i have equal integrity to God , if he wants me there under any other pretense than equality , im walking ..
If going to heaven changes me then being here is pointless so i assume i stay the same , values stay the same , attraction , repulsion .
Then before i take my place in heaven id need to know why , why and why and why he lets it carry on . Id then explain the software is buggy and full of virus , what's up with customer service why haven't you released a patch , making something so important that you have not tested , dont know how to fix is reckless .
I dont think anyone can dispute reality is messy , so much waste the suffering of 100s of billions so that one can go on after death ?
I know is metaphors but i think it explains my dilemma.

To 100% dismiss God or afterlife would not be wise but it appears very unlikely going there in itself would also cause problems for anyone that had lived this life with there eyes open.
If its anything else other than equality its not worth having.
What about those that suffer horrific slow death , what do they say to God when they arrive . Is reasonable question.
I know you will come back and say Gods will this and free will that , but , no
Suffering sucks and i won't sell myself or keep my mouth shut when/ if the time comes to secure an eternity of witnessing more suffering or even being aware of more suffering , see even tho id be in heaven and im alright Jack. Im guessing id retain my awareness of suffering on earth .
So then i goto start lobbying God for patches to fix earth.
Sounds like a lot of work to me mate especially if he hindering me with fire.

I lay much of my belief to cause and effect.
Suffering doesn't surprise me or anyone else.
Breathing is inherently fatal.

This form will produce a unique spirit on each occasion.
The person you are is proof sufficient.....or should be.

Why?.....
Because having created substance...the declaration 'I AM' becomes an echo.

Someone had to be First.
I believe the First gained his Voice and His creation.

But of course....there's nothing but an Echo....until Man.

You can count angels as echoes if you like.
Or the first signs of freewill.
Denial is a sign of freewill.
I've seen it written...God made Man a little less than the angels.
and then wanted the angels to follow after us.
One third of heaven said ...'nay'....so the story goes.

So we have God as the First.....
The angels are on second....
and I don't know is on third....

and if you think this discussion revolves about itself....
See Abbot and Costello....'who's on first?'...

 

[godnotgod]

...the declaration 'I AM' becomes an echo.

I believe the First gained his Voice and His creation.

But of course....there's nothing but an Echo....until Man.

You still don't understand.

You are focused on the foreground; the outcomes, rather than the Source.

'I Am' is not about speech or sounds or echos; it is about Being, and Being is Causeless and Silent. It is not about Form; Being is formless, although form emerges from it.

Form is emptiness;
Emptiness is form.

You are the Void pretending to be the form 'Thief', who is pretending he is not the Void, is separated from it, and must return to it after death in an imaginary place called 'Heaven', in the very elaborate game of Hide and Seek.

 

[Thief]

You still don't understand.

You are focused on the foreground; the outcomes, rather than the Source.

'I Am' is not about speech or sounds or echos; it is about Being, and Being is Causeless and Silent. It is not about Form; Being is formless, although form emerges from it.

Form is emptiness;
Emptiness is form.

You are the Void pretending to be the form 'Thief', who is pretending he is not the Void, is separated from it, and must return to it after death in an imaginary place called 'Heaven', in the very elaborate game of Hide and Seek.

Kinda hard to say you are.....if I can't say I am.

 

[Muffled]

But hold on. Where exactly do you determine a conflict existing between 'God' and some other entity, and further that they are morally polarized into the values of 'Good' and 'Evil'?

I believe from the Bible which state there is a spirit of AntiChrist and that there is a Satan, the meaning of which is one who opposes.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I believe from the Bible which state there is a spirit of AntiChrist and that there is a Satan, the meaning of which is one who opposes.

However, God is One, Supreme, and without equal or rival! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with Him or trying to “get us.”

And "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[godnotgod]

I believe from the Bible which state there is a spirit of AntiChrist and that there is a Satan, the meaning of which is one who opposes.

Yes, I know you BELIEVE that, but the question is WHY you do. Do you even understand the nature of your own motivation for doing so?

 

[Thief]

Yes, I know you BELIEVE that, but the question is WHY you do. Do you even understand the nature of your own motivation for doing so?

Which is the same question the angels will ask in that last hour.

When you stand up from the flesh, they will be there to see what came of it.

They will ask.....what do you believe?
Then they will ask why did you believe it?

If I say well enough....fine....good...
They might then ask me to follow.
They might then ask if I told anyone else.

They could then turn about and seek the one who told me such things.
They could then seek out those who share the same notions.

If good things are said....no problem.
The good things will be gathered.

If something less......

 

[atanu]

I believe from the Bible which state there is a spirit of AntiChrist and that there is a Satan, the meaning of which is one who opposes.

But I know from Bible "He is before all and all subsist in Him".

 

[godnotgod]

Which is the same question the angels will ask in that last hour.

When you stand up from the flesh, they will be there to see what came of it.

They will ask.....what do you believe?
Then they will ask why did you believe it?

If I say well enough....fine....good...
They might then ask me to follow.
They might then ask if I told anyone else.

They could then turn about and seek the one who told me such things.
They could then seek out those who share the same notions.

If good things are said....no problem.
The good things will be gathered.

If something less......

So what if all you believe is false?

What if the angels shake their heads and say:

'That is not it...that is not it at all'?

What if a great voice comes from behind the Pearly Gates and demands:

'Who goes there?...What is it you want?'

 

[Sha'irullah]

The afterlife is entirely subjective and is nothing else but a ceasing of the physical brain and the implosion of the soul. Our own subjectivity produces our own afterlife. Mine's is a bit on the fiery side but I just like it that way.

There is no concept of an objective afterlife as far as I know although I do find it likely that minds will be able to interact with each other

 

[godnotgod]

The afterlife is entirely subjective and is nothing else but a ceasing of the physical brain and the implosion of the soul. Our own subjectivity produces our own afterlife. Mine's is a bit on the fiery side but I just like it that way.

There is no concept of an objective afterlife as far as I know although I do find it likely that minds will be able to interact with each other

We only formulate concepts of an 'afterlife' because of our view of linear time and space as past, present, and future, where the present is always just beyond reach, a fleeting elusive moment in time. When this concept is no longer seen as valid, there is only this present moment, which contains everything. The concept of an afterlife answers the question of one's uncertain fate and acts as a temporary comfort for one's resultant metaphysical anxiety.

 

[Thief]

We only formulate concepts of an 'afterlife' because of our view of linear time and space as past, present, and future, where the present is always just beyond reach, a fleeting elusive moment in time. When this concept is no longer seen as valid, there is only this present moment, which contains everything. The concept of an afterlife answers the question of one's uncertain fate and acts as a temporary comfort for one's resultant metaphysical anxiety.

There you go with that forked tongue trick, again.

You either have a grasp on the present (though you say it's out of reach)....OR
There is only this present moment.

Can't really nod your head...can you?

 

[godnotgod]

There you go with that forked tongue trick, again.

You either have a grasp on the present (though you say it's out of reach)....OR
There is only this present moment.

Can't really nod your head...can you?

The more you attempt to 'grasp' at the present, the more elusive it becomes. There is only this present moment, and it contains you; you don't contain it. There is nothing to 'get'.

Your limited mind wants to grasp at some future fantasy of an afterlife as a means of gaining freedom from anxiety. The only time one can gain freedom from anxiety is in the present. The anxiety we create has no basis in fact. We are, in effect, on a 'troubled voyage in calm weather'.

 

[Sha'irullah]

We only formulate concepts of an 'afterlife' because of our view of linear time and space as past, present, and future, where the present is always just beyond reach, a fleeting elusive moment in time. When this concept is no longer seen as valid, there is only this present moment, which contains everything. The concept of an afterlife answers the question of one's uncertain fate and acts as a temporary comfort for one's resultant metaphysical anxiety.

Your fluffy speech eludes my intellectual absorbency

 

[ametist]

The more you attempt to 'grasp' at the present, the more elusive it becomes. There is only this present moment, and it contains you; you don't contain it. There is nothing to 'get'.

Your limited mind wants to grasp at some future fantasy of an afterlife as a means of gaining freedom from anxiety. The only time one can gain freedom from anxiety is in the present. The anxiety we create has no basis in fact. We are, in effect, on a 'troubled voyage in calm weather'.

I am always troubled with the being in the present moment philosophy. Mind actually hardly is in present moment. Though may be minimal literally there is always a time gap between where you actually is and the moment you perceive that you are there. So we are always a memory rather than being an actual being living in the moment. That being which has the memory is unknown and dont think it has anything to do with time and place.

 

[Thief]

The more you attempt to 'grasp' at the present, the more elusive it becomes. There is only this present moment, and it contains you; you don't contain it. There is nothing to 'get'.

Your limited mind wants to grasp at some future fantasy of an afterlife as a means of gaining freedom from anxiety. The only time one can gain freedom from anxiety is in the present. The anxiety we create has no basis in fact. We are, in effect, on a 'troubled voyage in calm weather'.

White man speak with forked tongue......(again).
Old Indian saying.

I bet sailors had a catch phrase for it too.....something like.....'walk the plank'!

Try using YOUR limited mind and step up to Something Greater.

'You' still think 'you' aren't really there......don't 'you'?

 

[atanu]

I am always troubled with the being in the present moment philosophy. Mind actually hardly is in present moment. ....

That is, IMO, because, truly 'being in the present' means being truly non mind-non sensual yet a purveyor of the mind-senses and their objects.

There will be trouble understanding it. The nearest example, which however should not be taken literally, is 'being the screen that is Seer of the movie playing on the screen.

The above apparently is not the stated goal in christianity or in islam, as of now. So, much of this discussion in this thread may not lead anywhere, IMO.

 

[Nakosis]

Man is able to create a "virtual" reality in his head and has gotten very good at it. So much so that sometimes people can't differentiate between the world they've imagined and the one they actually live in.

Understand there is no future or past that exists. We create a virtual reality of the past and a virtual reality of what we expect the future to be and we act according to this reality that we've imagined to exist.

For me, being in the present is to accept each moment as it is without trying to superimpose this virtual past or future. If I try to ponder/analyze any particular moment that moment becomes a virtual reality which holds no real connection to the actual reality but we humans still tend to confuse the two.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with a creative mind. If fact what is really cool to is to bring something you've imagined to exist into actuality. But what I think is important is the ability to differentiate what we've imagined reality to be from actuality.

Living in the moment is a good way to practice being able to differentiate between the two.

For example, I suppose... Circumstances cause a man to imagine his wife is cheating on him and so acts and feels as if this was actuality. She gets treated as if she cheated not because of actuality but because of the imagined reality created by the man. If he were able to differentiate his imagined reality from actuality he could see he has no cause to treat his wife this way.

 

[godnotgod]

I am always troubled with the being in the present moment philosophy. Mind actually hardly is in present moment. Though may be minimal literally there is always a time gap between where you actually is and the moment you perceive that you are there. So we are always a memory rather than being an actual being living in the moment. That being which has the memory is unknown and dont think it has anything to do with time and place.

You've touched upon something significant, and that is that the mind does dwell in time and space, but consciousness does not. No matter what the mind may conjure up, we are always in the present moment, whether mind sees it that way or not. It's consciousness that makes the direct connection, without thought, to the present reality that is always here, now. Consciousness confirms our presence in the here and now, and that the here and now is not a philosophy. It is mind that fools us, and which holds memory, via the brain. But when we take a closer look, we find that mind is only a self-created principle, an illusion, and it is with awakened consciousness that we are able to do so.

The experience you are describing means your mind still dwells in linear time and space. The present moment is timeless, but you need to awaken first before you can see that. It is not about thinking; it is about seeing.

As atanu put it: 'being in the present' means being truly non mind-non sensual yet a purveyor of the mind-senses and their objects.'

 

[godnotgod]

Man is able to create a "virtual" reality in his head and has gotten very good at it. So much so that sometimes people can't differentiate between the world they've imagined and the one they actually live in.

Understand there is no future or past that exists. We create a virtual reality of the past and a virtual reality of what we expect the future to be and we act according to this reality that we've imagined to exist.

For me, being in the present is to accept each moment as it is without trying to superimpose this virtual past or future. If I try to ponder/analyze any particular moment that moment becomes a virtual reality which holds no real connection to the actual reality but we humans still tend to confuse the two.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with a creative mind. If fact what is really cool to is to bring something you've imagined to exist into actuality. But what I think is important is the ability to differentiate what we've imagined reality to be from actuality.

Living in the moment is a good way to practice being able to differentiate between the two.

For example, I suppose... Circumstances cause a man to imagine his wife is cheating on him and so acts and feels as if this was actuality. She gets treated as if she cheated not because of actuality but because of the imagined reality created by the man. If he were able to differentiate his imagined reality from actuality he could see he has no cause to treat his wife this way.

Excellent post. Your observations apply exactly to the conceptualizaton of an after-life and all of the mental acrobatics that lead up that that concept.

Buddhists sometimes have the same problem of imagining 'another realm' beyond this present reality. Shunryu Suzuki, founder of the San Francisco Zen Center, calls this a 'substantial, delusive idea'. I strongly suspect the rationale for such thinking is all tied up in the ego's persistence in wanting to go on and on ad nauseum. It is the constant frictional lawsuit existing between the 'self' and the 'not-self'. Descartes falsely concluded that thought verified existence. He forgot that the "I" which came to this conclusion is an illusion.