What has islam contributed to the world?

[Bismillah]

women are subjected to the men in their lives even when it comes to hajj...

Prove it.

 

[Badran]

well it only takes common sense to figure that out...
or maybe for those who follow the islamic faith it isn't so common...
this is purely elementary. mutual respect wouldn't leave room for control over anyone else, no matter who.

Who told you that this supposed rule is supposed to be enforced? Why didn't you consider the possibility that it is meant for the women to enforce upon themselves? As in its up to them if they meet it or not, why did you take it that it requires men to make sure that women follow it?

Why are you also not considering the point about there being different opinions on the matter?

the quran 2:223 basically says hey if you want some (to the man) come and get it, the very idea of the woman's feelings is not even asked to be considered simply because this is her duty and he has the right to demand it because he simply feels the urge...
"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please"
that is giving the men permission to not consider the woman's feelings, because it is common sense that the woman has feelings about it but his actions are now justified because allah said so...

Well, no i'm afraid thats not what the verse is saying. Why are we talking about this verse though?

 

[Bismillah]

Subhan'allah we don't have to rely on waitasec's tafsir...

 

[waitasec]

Why are you also not considering the point about there being different opinions on the matter?

i did...
the fact there are many opinions is a tell tale sign of the double standards the culture adheres to so of course allah is subjected to the way MEN want to worship it...
one standard for all would suffice. it's the male chauvinistic tendencies that this religion stands behind.
the problem with islam is the standard is based on the male counterpart and everything around the male has to adjust to their wants and needs...
nothing but spoiled little boys really.

Why are we talking about this verse though?

why not..it's in the quran... and because it sheds light on how the women are treated... did allah ever use degrading words, like "fields" to describe a wife's duty to her husband, to describe a husband duty to his wife..oh right he gets more than one (silly me)... of course not...wonder why?

 

[Badran]

i did...
the fact there are many opinions is a tell tale sign of the double standards the culture adheres to so of course allah is subjected to the way MEN want to worship it...
one standard for all would suffice. it's the male chauvinistic tendencies that this religion stands behind.

Okay lets just see what you're saying here. You're saying that the fact that there is more than one opinion, not just one that all miraculously agree upon, is a sign of the double standards of the culture and male chauvinistic tendencies........Why on earth is this the case?

Most if not all of religions include within itself more than one understanding, which is a good thing because no one has or should have authority on being the one who says what God really means, or what the religion really teaches in general. Like i told you earlier this is not restricted to the areas about women and men rights, but its what happens with all aspects of the religion.

the problem with islam is the standard is based on the male counterpart and everything around the male has to adjust to their wants and needs...
nothing but spoiled little boys really.

Thats not true i'm afraid.

why not..it's in the quran... and because it sheds light on how the women are treated... did allah ever use degrading words, like "fields" to describe a wife's duty to her husband, to describe a husband duty to his wife..

The verse is neither talking about duties (although both men and women have a duty in this in Islam) neither is it degrading women by describing them this way, its meant as reference to the fact that from women, life (children) comes. As in the man gives the seeds and the women gives the children or something along this meaning.

oh right he gets more than one (silly me)... of course not...wonder why?

You wanna talk about that?

 

[LuisDantas]

Waitasec, there are many controversies and opinions within Islam, as are with pretty much all religious communities. And that is a good thing. It keeps the practice healthy and heals blind dogmatism.

 

[waitasec]

Okay lets just see what you're saying here. You're saying that the fact that there is more than one opinion, not just one that all miraculously agree upon, is a sign of the double standards of the culture and male chauvinistic tendencies........Why on earth is this the case?

Most if not all of religions include within itself more than one understanding, which is a good thing because no one has or should have authority on being the one who says what God really means, or what the religion really teaches in general. Like i told you earlier this is not restricted to the areas about women and men rights, but its what happens with all aspects of the religion.

do you really want to call them opinions? it's male chauvinism...that's a bias not an opinion...because it infringes on the equal rights women have.
really easy to see but not for some it seems.
of course, with in these 3 abrahamic religions you have the element of male chauvinistic tendencies...that's obvious. nothing new.
the reason there are so many biases in the big 3 members only clubs is because it is based on subjective opinion and using bronze age biases really isn't fixing the problem- it's adding to it...

i mean, REALLY?
humanism has one opinion about people...equality. thats a given except for those who are inscure enough to want to control the other half of humanity

not impressive at all.

The verse is neither talking about duties (although both men and women have a duty in this in Islam) neither is it degrading women by describing them this way, its meant as reference to the fact that from women, life (children) comes. As in the man gives the seeds and the women gives the children or something along this meaning.



You wanna talk about that?

Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please. (Quran, 2:223)

and what about these hadith's...

Allah’s Messenger said, “When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven.” (Hadith - Tirmidhi 3257) Allah’s Apostle said, “If a husband calls his wife to his bed [for sexual intercourse] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.” (Hadith - Bukhari 4.460)

Allah’s Apostle said, “By him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her untill he (her husband) is pleased with her.” (Hadith - Sahih, 2.3367)

are you really going to try to defend this hatred?

 

[Badran]

do you really want to call them opinions? it's male chauvinism...that's a bias not an opinion...because it infringes on the equal rights women have.

May be i'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that these views are based on biases? If thats the case then some are and some are not. Some are genuine and some are not. I agree with you that if someone thinks or holds an opinion that results in women being in anyway inferior to men that is probably a bias, but its still their view, messed up as it is. However like i said these multiple opinions are not restricted to this area, and such multiplicity is found in pretty much all religions.

of course, with in these 3 abrahamic religions you have the element of male chauvinistic tendencies...that's obvious. nothing new.

Obvious for you of course, not for me.

i mean, REALLY?
humanism has one opinion about people...equality. thats a given except for those who are inscure enough to want to control the other half of humanity

I agree. People of course are equal, people who don't think so do not even deserve to be called insecure, its too light a word to describe them. Thankfully Islam makes it pretty clear in many instances that people are all equal.

Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please. (Quran, 2:223)

This part about whence is saying that you may approach your wife from which ever position. The total conclusion is that you may approach your wives from whichever position, in the specified place, the front part. As in whichever way you wish, whether standing up, sitting down, lying down, from the front or the back.

In a nutshell, giving a go ahead with specifications. That doesn't mean that each time they "go ahead" or approach their wives they'll be met with a yes, however its clarifying that there are no restrictions put on them to not approach their wives in that specified manner.

and what about these hadith's...

Allah’s Messenger said, “When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven.” (Hadith - Tirmidhi 3257) Allah’s Apostle said, “If a husband calls his wife to his bed [for sexual intercourse] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.” (Hadith - Bukhari 4.460)

Allah’s Apostle said, “By him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her untill he (her husband) is pleased with her.” (Hadith - Sahih, 2.3367)

are you really going to try to defend this hatred?

This might seem awfully convenient, but you can check yourself from many older threads that i don't accept many Hadiths that other Muslims might accept, so i'll let these be discussed by someone who actually accepts them.

 

[waitasec]

May be i'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that these views are based on biases? If thats the case then some are and some are not. Some are genuine and some are not. I agree with you that if someone thinks or holds an opinion that results in women being in anyway inferior to men that is probably a bias, but its still their view, messed up as it is. However like i said these multiple opinions are not restricted to this area, and such multiplicity is found in pretty much all religions.



Obvious for you of course, not for me.



I agree. People of course are equal, people who don't think so do not even deserve to be called insecure, its too light a word to describe them. Thankfully Islam makes it pretty clear in many instances that people are all equal.



This part about whence is saying that you may approach your wife from which ever position. The total conclusion is that you may approach your wives from whichever position, in the specified place, the front part. As in whichever way you wish, whether standing up, sitting down, lying down, from the front or the back.

In a nutshell, giving a go ahead with specifications. That doesn't mean that each time they "go ahead" or approach their wives they'll be met with a yes, however its clarifying that there are no restrictions put on them to not approach their wives in that specified manner.



This might seem awfully convenient, but you can check yourself from many older threads that i don't accept many Hadiths that other Muslims might accept, so i'll let these be discussed by someone who actually accepts them.

i appreciate your response.
you are a minority it seems...

chauvinism in the big 3 exists because the bronze age god "exists".
what man will argue against a god who tells women to please their male counterpart without any regard to her feelings?

 

[waitasec]

to be fair, i just came across this...
Law expert explains Sharia and Islam – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Badran, of all the Muslim posters on this forum, I have formed the opinion that you are the most moderate of the bunch, which is why I enjoy reading your posts. However, there really are alot of passages from the Koran & the Hadith (which if I understand correctly, the Hadith is required in order to make sense of large portions of the Koran) which point to women being a lesser class than men. There are also passages where it specifically states that both are equal.

If I understand the Koran correctly,(which I admit I have not studied all of it) it is basically broken up into two seperate books, one being from the early days of Islam when Muhammad was in Mecca, which tend to be the more peaceful parts of the Koran, when he had very few followers, and then the second coming from his time in Medina, where he became more theocratic, and more of a warlord. A time where the more violent scriptures come from. There is a scripture that says any Sura that contradicts another, the Sura that comes later chronologically abrogates the earlier scripture. (correct me if I am wrong). Something about if a scripture is contradicted or abrogated, it will be replaced with a better one.

If this is the case, then it may explain why there are differing views on how people discipher the Koran.

I know first hand that peaceful Muslims exist, who do not view women as second class citizens, because I have met them firsthand in my time overseas. However, on the other hand, there are just as many who do view women as second class, which is clearly views in societies such as Afghanistan, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia, just to name a few. They also follow the more violent scriptures that came later in the Koran chronologically.

The problem as I see it, is the later of the bunch are the ones that tend to get the most face time, which directly affects how people view Islam. If they are not privy to the moderate types in society, then it is only natural that they will have at least some negative views of their culture. I tend to blame the media more than anything else for this, as they are the ones giving these types their infamy if you will.

What the Muslim community needs is more Moderate Muslims to speak out against the extremist types, to help people realize that a not all Muslims are fanatical and wish the entire planet one big Islamic state. What they don't need are self proclaimed Moderates being prosecuted for financing terrorism, which is the case across the US. CAIR is a good example of this.

Anyways, thats just how I see it.

 

[Bismillah]

Abrogation refers to supposed theories of contradiction between the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which is rejected universally by almost all scholars. Read Muhammad Asad's book and tafsir on the Qur'an.

The rest is just useless drivel said time and time again

What the Muslim community needs is more Moderate Muslims to speak out against the extremist types

Hah like you even understand the basis of the Muslim community to wonder what they are even saying.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Abrogation refers to supposed theories of contradiction between the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which is rejected universally by almost all scholars. Read Muhammad Asad's book and tafsir on the Qur'an.

The rest is just useless drivel said time and time again Hah like you even understand the basis of the Muslim community to wonder what they are even saying.

So, you claim that everything I said is misinformation then? If it is, then why don't you correct me? Surely you don't want ignorant non-Muslims spreading misinformation.

Which parts of what i said were incorrect?


And you don't agree that Moderate Muslims who do not participate in the likes of Al qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. need to speak out against those extremists? You wish to continue letting people who do not know the difference, who think all Muslims are just closet terrorists, think this way? If so, then you do a great injustice to your Muslim brothers and sisters.

Hell, I'm not Muslims and I would like to see them speak out against it. How don't you get that Muslims, here in the U.S have held very large rallies in D.C. and California openly speaking out against the U.S. and wishing for the country to be an Islamic state under Sharia, is bad for the image of moderate Muslims?

 

[Badran]

Badran, of all the Muslim posters on this forum, I have formed the opinion that you are the most moderate of the bunch, which is why I enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you, that means a lot to me.

However, there really are alot of passages from the Koran & the Hadith (which if I understand correctly, the Hadith is required in order to make sense of large portions of the Koran) which point to women being a lesser class than men. There are also passages where it specifically states that both are equal.

Hadiths (which are sayings of Muhammad) do offer understanding to a large portion of the Quran, but not in the sense that you wouldn't comprehend the verses without those Hadiths, its that you'll misunderstand them. As they refer to important info regarding when and why this verse was revealed, and what it is addressing. The thing that must be known to you about Hadiths is that Muslims don't accept all of the existing Hadiths, as they are reports of what our prophet (pbuh) supposedly said or did, we do a certain process in order to clarify which Hadiths are reliable and which are not. The result of that process differs, depending on who is doing it. The majority of Muslims today accept a certain set of Hadiths to be reliable which were judged to be so by certain people in much older times.

In some of those Hadiths, in my opinion, lies part of the problem. There are no instances in the Quran which says or implies that men are better than women or that women are inferior to men (although i know you probably have one or two verses in mind that you took to be saying so), in fact the Quran makes it very clear that in general all humanity are equal, and in other instances emphasizes that women are equal to men in the eyes of God. However, the same can not be said about some of those Hadiths (although not all of them are of the accepted set), and some of the rules it proposes, and that alongside the misunderstanding of one or two verses in the Quran is why it might seem that in Islam women are still held inferior to men. Lastly, a side note, is that the culture of this area where Muslims are mostly populated contributes more than you'd imagine to the whole issue with women. Examples of that are honor killings and circumcision.

If I understand the Koran correctly,(which I admit I have not studied all of it) it is basically broken up into two seperate books, one being from the early days of Islam when Muhammad was in Mecca, which tend to be the more peaceful parts of the Koran, when he had very few followers, and then the second coming from his time in Medina, where he became more theocratic, and more of a warlord. A time where the more violent scriptures come from. There is a scripture that says any Sura that contradicts another, the Sura that comes later chronologically abrogates the earlier scripture. (correct me if I am wrong). Something about if a scripture is contradicted or abrogated, it will be replaced with a better one. If this is the case, then it may explain why there are differing views on how people discipher the Koran.

This is a common misinformation that i've seen before. This supposed rule is not accepted as proposed. Basically, this all revolves around one verse in the Quran which has more than one possible interpretation, however whats for sure is that Muslims and Muslim scholars mostly do not take it that later verses cancels out earlier ones, that is a flat out lie. For example when alcohol was going to be prohibited, it started as a partial prohibition, to not pray while drunk. Then it became to not get drunk at all, so of course in this case we follow the latter rule but not because its a contradiction or because the new one cancels out the older one as proposed. Simply because we already know the procedure in which alcohol was prohibited, and the reason it was prohibited in this way for, and that is due to people's attachment to it and it being something they were very used to, so this was to make things easier.

So to put it simply, in case i haven't explained properly, this rule as proposed doesn't exist. Non of the earlier verses are canceled, we follow the entire Quran.

I know first hand that peaceful Muslims exist, who do not view women as second class citizens, because I have met them firsthand in my time overseas. However, on the other hand, there are just as many who do view women as second class, which is clearly views in societies such as Afghanistan, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia, just to name a few. They also follow the more violent scriptures that came later in the Koran chronologically.

These places are among the worst places on earth to live in, and i think it might be understandable to you (as i understand you're a military man) that in the case of Sudan and Afghanistan, there are loads of other factors that plays in how these people think and act. However, i agree of course that some Muslims do view women that way (as Muslims are no different than any other group, some of them are good and some of them are bad), and some of the lets say 'forms of Islam' followed in a country like Saudi Arabia do contain extremely negative stuff about women, but that in all honesty in my opinion has to do with these people's will to make it so. There is a portion in Islam called fatwas that is basically a scholar declaring his opinion about a certain new issue that is not addressed in neither the quran or hadiths, and from those fatwas you can very well learn how these people think. You would see that they themselves want this to be case, not the other way around, thats why a lot of women in Saudi Arabia (although they are Muslims too) dislike and sometimes object to these rules enforced against them.

The way i see it the whole problem with women and how they are viewed not only is not restricted to Islam, but is not restricted to religion in general. Unfortunate as it is, its a common feature among human beings that the physically stronger will abuse the weaker and view them as inferior.

The problem as I see it, is the later of the bunch are the ones that tend to get the most face time, which directly affects how people view Islam. If they are not privy to the moderate types in society, then it is only natural that they will have at least some negative views of their culture. I tend to blame the media more than anything else for this, as they are the ones giving these types their infamy if you will.

I agree, the bad examples definitely attract more attention and that is to be blamed mainly on the media. But, i've come to realize that also i should partially blame people, because many people want to see this stuff. People are the ones who are attracted to the controversial and cheap stuff, and so the media feeds them mostly what they want. Which is what happens all over the world, and is the problem with media in general.

What the Muslim community needs is more Moderate Muslims to speak out against the extremist types, to help people realize that a not all Muslims are fanatical and wish the entire planet one big Islamic state. What they don't need are self proclaimed Moderates being prosecuted for financing terrorism, which is the case across the US. CAIR is a good example of this. Anyways, thats just how I see it.

I agree this is the duty of Muslims to do. But its very difficult to do that, because most of the people who view Muslims as mostly fanatical are almost beyond the point of being helped to see the truth, they have already accepted preposterous ideas that merely confirm to their biases or bigotry and make them feel better about themselves.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Thank you, that means a lot to me.



Hadiths (which are sayings of Muhammad) do offer understanding to a large portion of the Quran, but not in the sense that you wouldn't comprehend the verses without those Hadiths, its that you'll misunderstand them. As they refer to important info regarding when and why this verse was revealed, and what it is addressing. The thing that must be known to you about Hadiths is that Muslims don't accept all of the existing Hadiths, as they are reports of what our prophet (pbuh) supposedly said or did, we do a certain process in order to clarify which Hadiths are reliable and which are not. The result of that process differs, depending on who is doing it. The majority of Muslims today accept a certain set of Hadiths to be reliable which were judged to be so by certain people in much older times.

In some of those Hadiths, in my opinion, lies part of the problem. There are no instances in the Quran which says or implies that men are better than women or that women are inferior to men (although i know you probably have one or two verses in mind that you took to be saying so), in fact the Quran makes it very clear that in general all humanity are equal, and in other instances emphasizes that women are equal to men in the eyes of God. However, the same can not be said about some of those Hadiths (although not all of them are of the accepted set), and some of the rules it proposes, and that alongside the misunderstanding of one or two verses in the Quran is why it might seem that in Islam women are still held inferior to men. Lastly, a side note, is that the culture of this area where Muslims are mostly populated contributes more than you'd imagine to the whole issue with women. Examples of that are honor killings and circumcision.



This is a common misinformation that i've seen before. This supposed rule is not accepted as proposed. Basically, this all revolves around one verse in the Quran which has more than one possible interpretation, however whats for sure is that Muslims and Muslim scholars mostly do not take it that later verses cancels out earlier ones, that is a flat out lie. For example when alcohol was going to be prohibited, it started as a partial prohibition, to not pray while drunk. Then it became to not get drunk at all, so of course in this case we follow the latter rule but not because its a contradiction or because the new one cancels out the older one as proposed. Simply because we already know the procedure in which alcohol was prohibited, and the reason it was prohibited in this way for, and that is due to people's attachment to it and it being something they were very used to, so this was to make things easier.

So to put it simply, in case i haven't explained properly, this rule as proposed doesn't exist. Non of the earlier verses are canceled, we follow the entire Quran.



These places are among the worst places on earth to live in, and i think it might be understandable to you (as i understand you're a military man) that in the case of Sudan and Afghanistan, there are loads of other factors that plays in how these people think and act. However, i agree of course that some Muslims do view women that way (as Muslims are no different than any other group, some of them are good and some of them are bad), and some of the lets say 'forms of Islam' followed in a country like Saudi Arabia do contain extremely negative stuff about women, but that in all honesty in my opinion has to do with these people's will to make it so. There is a portion in Islam called fatwas that is basically a scholar declaring his opinion about a certain new issue that is not addressed in neither the quran or hadiths, and from those fatwas you can very well learn how these people think. You would see that they themselves want this to be case, not the other way around, thats why a lot of women in Saudi Arabia (although they are Muslims too) dislike and sometimes object to these rules enforced against them.

The way i see it the whole problem with women and how they are viewed not only is not restricted to Islam, but is not restricted to religion in general. Unfortunate as it is, its a common feature among human beings that the physically stronger will abuse the weaker and view them as inferior.



I agree, the bad examples definitely attract more attention and that is to be blamed mainly on the media. But, i've come to realize that also i should partially blame people, because many people want to see this stuff. People are the ones who are attracted to the controversial and cheap stuff, and so the media feeds them mostly what they want. Which is what happens all over the world, and is the problem with media in general.



I agree this is the duty of Muslims to do. But its very difficult to do that, because most of the people who view Muslims as mostly fanatical are almost beyond the point of being helped to see the truth, they have already accepted preposterous ideas that merely confirm to their biases or bigotry and make them feel better about themselves.

Well, this post just reinforced my opinion of you, as you are able to discuss this topic rationally, and can correct my mistakes or misinformation without being unnecessarily rude. It's appreciated. I am, after all, here mostly to learn about religions, and why people follow them, even if I am an Atheist.

It seems to me then, after reading your post, that moderate Muslims treat the Hadiths similarly to how non-fundamentalist Christians treat the Bible. While following its overall lesson, realize that there are parts that are not to be taken literal, such as Adam & Eve, The great flood, etc. I know there are Christians that do not accept certain parts of the Bible at all.

I have never been of the opinion that the Extremist Muslims represent all, or even most Moderate types. I quite enjoyed my time overseas and have made loads of Muslim friends, who collectively have been more gracious than most Americans I know. But I have to admit, I myself can get caught up in the media frenzy if I'm not careful, and let my emotions get the better of me. I am human afterall.

Anyways, I appreciate you taking the time to respond in detail.

 

[Bismillah]

So, you claim that everything I said is misinformation then? If it is, then why don't you correct me? Surely you don't want ignorant non-Muslims spreading misinformation.

I am stating that your entire premise is wrong and the paragraph following is naturally useless. That is the reference to abrogation its subject matter and how it is applied. Even in its true state, there is no wide held belief that abrogation, among learned men,exists.

The rest is typical junk about the need for outreach by Muslims. Forgive me if I hurt your sensibilities but I and my mosque have spent countless hours and budget reaching out to the greater Tucson, Arizona, and American community.

I have had four hours of sleep because of trying to arrange the process of seven different seminars including an interfaith discussion as well as one by Tariq Ramadan, one of the Muslim worlds leading scholars who has worked in tandem with the E.U and the U.K aboust solving immigration issues. I or Muslims do not have to do anything, we will continue being part of an excelling community within America promoting dialogue, discourse, and charity.

But counteracting the media and the agendas of those who are infinitely more powerful is impossible and I don't need you giving me advice on how to do so.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I am stating that your entire premise is wrong and the paragraph following is naturally useless. That is the reference to abrogation its subject matter and how it is applied. Even in its true state, there is no wide held belief that abrogation, among learned men,exists.

The rest is typical junk about the need for outreach by Muslims. Forgive me if I hurt your sensibilities but I and my mosque have spent countless hours and budget reaching out to the greater Tucson, Arizona, and American community.

I have had four hours of sleep because of trying to arrange the process of seven different seminars including an interfaith discussion as well as one by Tariq Ramadan, one of the Muslim worlds leading scholars who has worked in tandem with the E.U and the U.K aboust solving immigration issues. I or Muslims do not have to do anything, we will continue being part of an excelling community within America promoting dialogue, discourse, and charity.

But counteracting the media and the agendas of those who are infinitely more powerful is impossible and I don't need you giving me advice on how to do so.

And this is a perfect example of why I prefer to debate with Badran. He is at least sensible and calm. You on the other hand only throw insults and assume that everyone that doesn't agree with you or your wacky views are ignorant. It shines in just about every post, unless of course you are responding to someone that agree's with you.

 

[waitasec]

Abrogation refers to supposed theories of contradiction between the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which is rejected universally by almost all scholars.

big deal...
what about the illiterate muslims which far out number your scholars?
who also seem to be committing the atrocious human rights violations we have evidence for...

moderates need to step up....if they really care to.

 

[Bismillah]

And this is a perfect example of why I prefer to debate with Badran. He is at least sensible and calm. You on the other hand only throw insults and assume that everyone that doesn't agree with you or your wacky views are ignorant. It shines in just about every post, unless of course you are responding to someone that agree's with you.

I wish I had more internet friends.

It is however, VERY ANNOYING when every non-Muslim I meet tells me Moderates need to work harder. Most MUSLIMS are actively engaged in their communities here in America thanks.

what about the illiterate muslims which far out number your scholars?

As I said if you want to criticize Muslims it is different from criticizing religion as one refutes the actions of individuals and the other refutes doctrine. I cannot see how such a simple concept is the cause of so much unnecessary back and forth.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I wish I had more internet friends.

That's nice....

It is however, VERY ANNOYING when every non-Muslim I meet tells me Moderates need to work harder. Most MUSLIMS are actively engaged in their communities here in America thanks.

I never said they didn't. What I was getting at it you don't hear about it. They should be more vocal, to the point where the media cannot ignore it. Where was the Muslim outcry at ground zero after 9/11? I don't remember any.

As I said if you want to criticize Muslims it is different from criticizing religion as one refutes the actions of individuals and the other refutes doctrine. I cannot see how such a simple concept is the cause of so much unnecessary back and forth.

It's not unnecessary when there is cause to criticize both, from different point of views. You cannot deny that the Koran and Hadith's present violent Sura's and passages.

I criticize Muslims for their extremism and willingness to kill innocents. I criticize the scriptures because that is where these extremists are being taught from. The same way I criticize the NBC for their antics.

I never said the Koran and Hadiths were inheritantly evil. I've acknowledged the peaceful sides of both.