What have you learned from your other?

[Unveiled Artist]

We say we are hear to learn and then in many cases-believer and] not our positions have no changed regardless of how much we learned. So, it makes me think, are we saying "I understand" and brush it under the rug or are we actually taking these arguments into consideration even if they challenge the opinions and beliefs you hold now?

I only remember one off hand. I don't know why I remember it. It was a conversation with @Deeje about the trinity (so thinking of another thread). I never really had an understanding of the trinity from outside what I'm accustomed to hearing: god is one, you see me, you see the father, and so on. I talked with a couple of other JW about it years ago before they moved. I've read the bible and thought about it. Now, I understand that there isn't a trinity. While this holds no personal significance to my life, it did change my "intellectual" perspective of things: it made sense. The problem was "how" I came to that conclusion and express it is unorthodox so trinitarians tend to fuss with me about it with the same arguments. But, nonetheless, that's what I learned and what changed my perspective when looking at arguments I understood is true "based on the scripture" regardless of my personal belief in and of itself.

What about you?

 

[metis]

IMO, it's almost always good we consider other facts, opinions, and beliefs, especially since I believe we should always be a "work in progress".

As far as the Trinitarian concept is concerned, I don't have a belief one way or the other on that, which is why I refer to myself as being in the "lunatic left-wing" element of the Catholic Church. I'm so far out in left field that I can't even see where the stadium is. And my priest is aware of this and doesn't have a problem with it. I am in my 15 year of teaching new potential converts, btw.

 

[dfnj]

Yeah, once I grab a hold of a belief it's carved in stone. I never change my mind. I just assume all my opinions are facts. And everyone else is either lying, deluded, or at worse possessed.

 

[Nakosis]

What have I learned from folks on the RF?

That believers honestly believe.

They are not lying, stupid, irrational, no more deluded than anyone else. Most feel pretty well justified in believing what they believe.
While I don't necessarily agree with their beliefs I should respect that at least.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah, once I grab a hold of a belief it's carved in stone. I never change my mind. I just assume all my opinions are facts. And everyone else is either lying, deluded, or at worse possessed.

Does anything non-religious help shape your belief or give you a new perspective of it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What have I learned from folks on the RF?

That believers honestly believe.

They are not lying, stupid, irrational, no more deluded than anyone else. Most feel pretty well justified in believing what they believe.
While I don't necessarily agree with their beliefs I should respect that at least.

What have you learned that helped influence or give you your own new perspective of their belief?

 

[Deeje]

I've read the bible and thought about it. Now, I understand that there isn't a trinity.

If only everyone would read the scriptures in context and understand that scripture never contradicts scripture. If the Bible is God’s word, then it can never argue with itself for obvious reasons. Verses taken out of context can be given all manner of interpretation. No scripture is more misinterpreted than that which is used to support the trinity. God is one Being...one entity whom Jesus called “the only true God” without including himself. (John 17:3) John 1:1 is undone by John 1:18. (John 14:28)

Getting some insight on the meaning of the Greek word “theos” (god) helps us to understand that it pertains to anyone who is divine or has divine authority. It doesn’t just have one meaning like it does in English. Jesus’ divine origins do not make him equal to his Father, nor does it prove that he is God. He was “sent” by God to carry out an important assignment.....to give his human life for the salvation of those who exercise faith in him. Not everyone who claims Jesus as their “Lord” will be saved, but will experience a stinging rejection....(Matthew 7:21-23) He tells these ones that he “NEVER knew them”. “Never” means “not ever”. Something to consider.

While this holds no personal significance to my life, it did change my "intellectual" perspective of things: it made sense. The problem was "how" I came to that conclusion and express it is unorthodox so trinitarians tend to fuss with me about it with the same arguments. But, nonetheless, that's what I learned and what changed my perspective when looking at arguments I understood is true "based on the scripture" regardless of my personal belief in and of itself.

You have hit on an interesting point....”intellectually” we can understand something that we find logical....but when a “belief” is involved, our intellect can be challenged and when fear is used to push that belief, intelligence then gives way to fear. When fear is allowed to dominate, a belief is held despite the fact that it makes no sense.

Remember too what the Bible says about individuals who “want” to believe something that is not true.....

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12...
“But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This describes well how some people hold to a chosen ‘delusion’ rather than to love the truth. Sometimes it’s a pride thing....but learning who is behind the deception influencing people can help us to analyse things more truthfully....even if it is confronting.

No other doctrine misrepresents the true nature of God than the trinity. This blasphemous lie has done more damage to Christianity than any other belief, yet it became the very foundation of Christendom’s beliefs. If you build on a faulty foundation, your whole building is sitting on sand....not rock. (Matthew 7:24-27)

That is how I see things......

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If only everyone would read the scriptures in context and understand that scripture never contradicts scripture. If the Bible is God’s word, then it can never argue with itself for obvious reasons. Verses taken out of context can be given all manner of interpretation. No scripture is more misinterpreted than that which is used to support the trinity. God is one Being...one entity whom Jesus called “the only true God” without including himself. (John 17:3) John 1:1 is undone by John 1:18. (John 14:28)

Getting some insight on the meaning of the Greek word “theos” (god) helps us to understand that it pertains to anyone who is divine or has divine authority. It doesn’t just have one meaning like it does in English. Jesus’ divine origins do not make him equal to his Father, nor does it prove that he is God. He was “sent” by God to carry out an important assignment.....to give his human life for the salvation of those who exercise faith in him. Not everyone who claims Jesus as their “Lord” will be saved, but will experience a stinging rejection....(Matthew 7:21-23) He tells these ones that he “NEVER knew them”. “Never” means “not ever”. Something to consider.



You have hit on an interesting point....”intellectually” we can understand something that we find logical....but when a “belief” is involved, our intellect can be challenged and when fear is used to push that belief, intelligence then gives way to fear. When fear is allowed to dominate, a belief is held despite the fact that it makes no sense.

Remember too what the Bible says about individuals who “want” to believe something that is not true.....

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12...
“But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This describes well how some people hold to a chosen ‘delusion’ rather than to love the truth. Sometimes it’s a pride thing....but learning who is behind the deception influencing people can help us to analyse things more truthfully....even if it is confronting.

No other doctrine misrepresents the true nature of God than the trinity. This blasphemous lie has done more damage to Christianity than any other belief, yet it became the very foundation of Christendom’s beliefs. If you build on a faulty foundation, your whole building is sitting on sand....not rock. (Matthew 7:24-27)

That is how I see things......

Although a bit less religious, I was reading this earlier 5 Reasons We Don't Let Ourselves Be Happy

It explains how we experience cognitive dissonance when challenged to change our unhappiness state now to something new and unfamiliar with. In that light, maybe some people find it hard to see a new perspective of the trinity insofar it doesn't challenge what they believe is true for the expense seeing and understanding of someone else's point of view.

Thanks.

 

[Deeje]

Although a bit less religious, I was reading this earlier 5 Reasons We Don't Let Ourselves Be Happy

Its true that we can allow ourselves to be the 'victim' of our upbringing and find reasons to stay a victim.....but reasons are not excuses.

We all have the power to change our lives for the better....It all depends on who we trust. As a casualty of the times, 'love' takes a back seat to 'self' in many cases. We have seen this with the panic buying and hording of essentials like toilet paper and cleaning products. There was always enough for everyone, but greedy self interest in the "me first" generation and its selfishness carries with it a "you owe me" mentality. The only thing we owe people is to treat them as we would like to be treated.....imagine if everyone did that! It is the second greatest commandment that Jesus gave after all.
But true happiness cannot be experienced unless we have a close connection to our Creator. How many people who express 'belief" actually 'know' the God they supposedly worship? (John 17:3)

It explains how we experience cognitive dissonance when challenged to change our unhappiness state now to something new and unfamiliar with. In that light, maybe some people find it hard to see a new perspective of the trinity insofar it doesn't challenge what they believe is true for the expense seeing and understanding of someone else's point of view.

I'm not sure I understand this reasoning. Everyone is entitled to a point of view.....free will gives us that choice....but depending on what we base our choices on, there is no guarantee that they are the right ones. A belief is a belief and only by sharing our beliefs with others will we find ways to refine them and modify them in the light of better understanding, gained by listening to others. Anyone who holds to beliefs that have no valid foundation will ultimately come to disappointment. It is good to evaluate all points of view, especially for Christians because Jesus said that the "weeds" will have to be uprooted and destroyed because of teaching lies about the nature of his Father and himself. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

So to my way of thinking, understanding someone else's point of view, if I believe it is in error, will not benefit them if I stay silent.
It's about informed choices....unless you have all the information....what good will your choices be? I have a point of view that I share because I believe it is correct. I have had many conversations with those who hold a different point of view but none have had any impact on my beliefs because they could not prove scripturally that what they believe is true.

There can be only one truth.....and only God can guide a person to it. (John 6:44; 65) We have to be the kind of person that God is looking for to become a citizen of his Kingdom.....Those who want to conform to God's criteria will do better than those who want God to conform to theirs, IMO.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh. When we are presented with information that challenges what we know is true, we experience cognitive dissonance. It's not only with trying to be happy but also with religious conversations as well. I'm not sure which causes more dissonance. People tend to listen more with non-religious issues than with religious. So.

I'm not sure I understand this reasoning. Everyone is entitled to a point of view.....free will gives us that choice....but depending on what we base our choices on, there is no guarantee that they are the right ones. A belief is a belief and only by sharing our beliefs with others will we find ways to refine them and modify them in the light of better understanding, gained by listening to others. Anyone who holds to beliefs that have no valid foundation will ultimately come to disappointment. It is good to evaluate all points of view, especially for Christians because Jesus said that the "weeds" will have to be uprooted and destroyed because of teaching lies about the nature of his Father and himself. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

Well, I live in a multi-cultural and religious area that to correct every person that doesn't share my faith would take up 23 hours of my day.

Do you talk about any religious christian topic without the need to correct people who you disagree with?

So to my way of thinking, understanding someone else's point of view, if I believe it is in error, will not benefit them if I stay silent.
It's about informed choices....unless you have all the information....what good will your choices be? I have a point of view that I share because I believe it is correct. I have had many conversations with those who hold a different point of view but none have had any impact on my beliefs because they could not prove scripturally that what they believe is true.

How do you know it won't benefit them?
That's assuming something is true on their behalf, no?

Conversations won't be productive (in your definition) if you already have presuming what they will or will not believe and accept (and to know more about them by asking what they mean by what they say).

Usually people who follow spiritual lifestyles tend to experience the opposite. Other people's beliefs (worldviews, etc) give them insight to their own faith. It doesn't define it, of course. It doesn't change it. It just means they can learn from it (as well as other things they care about) to help them with their life. I'm not sure how you see things, though. I never met anyone from your point of view. We are highly open here to one degree or another.

Sounds like the pearls among swine, is that a sum of what you're taking about?

There can be only one truth.....and only God can guide a person to it. (John 6:44; 65) We have to be the kind of person that God is looking for to become a citizen of his Kingdom.....Those who want to conform to God's criteria will do better than those who want God to conform to theirs, IMO.

Okay....

 

[Deeje]

Well, I live in a multi-cultural and religious area that to correct every person that doesn't share my faith would take up 23 hours of my day.

Do you talk about any religious christian topic without the need to correct people who you disagree with?

Is that what you think I meant? That I must correct everyone I speak to? That's not it at all....first of all I ascertain how a person feels about his or her faith and if it answers the difficult questions for them? By their response, I will either continue the conversation or leave it be. Talking face to face is very different from talking via the anonymity of the internet. Conversations have a life of their own and I believe that spiritual conversations can have a deep impact on people who are seekers.....genuine seekers. When you begin to explain the Bible's teachings, it stirs something inside them that is both challenging and exciting...but this only happens to some people...not all. We have a saying that there are three H's...someone has to be "Honest, Humble and Hungry" for God to open their eyes of understanding. If someone responds to the Bible's message, it is God who will open their heart to his truth. Not everyone wants what God is offering, so he allows us to make that choice for ourselves.

How do you know it won't benefit them?
That's assuming something is true on their behalf, no?

No one will benefit from us telling them anything unless they have the right heart condition....as Jesus said...

“When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. 12 Greet a household when you enter it, 13 and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 I assure you: It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matthew 10:11-15)

A "worthy" person is one who responds to the message about God's Kingdom.....we are not their judges, Jesus is. We are just the messengers. (Matthew 24:14)

Conversations won't be productive (in your definition) if you already have presuming what they will or will not believe and accept (and to know more about them by asking what they mean by what they say).

Talking to people, you get a feel for what they are seeking....in many cases people seek a God who conforms to what they are looking for, rather than conforming themselves to what God is looking for....I see it all the time here on RF.

Usually people who follow spiritual lifestyles tend to experience the opposite. Other people's beliefs (worldviews, etc) give them insight to their own faith. It doesn't define it, of course. It doesn't change it. It just means they can learn from it (as well as other things they care about) to help them with their life. I'm not sure how you see things, though. I never met anyone from your point of view. We are highly open here to one degree or another.

What is a "spiritual lifestyle" in your definition? Is being "spiritual" really all that's necessary?

Sounds like the pearls among swine, is that a sum of what you're taking about?

Jesus did admonish us......“Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open." IOW don't waste valuable time on fruitless arguments with people who don't really care about God and who don't value spiritual things. "Shake the dust off your feet" and move on...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is that what you think I meant? That I must correct everyone I speak to? That's not it at all....first of all I ascertain how a person feels about his or her faith and if it answers the difficult questions for them? By their response, I will either continue the conversation or leave it be.

Thanks.

Talking face to face is very different from talking via the anonymity of the internet. Conversations have a life of their own and I believe that spiritual conversations can have a deep impact on people who are seekers.....genuine seekers. When you begin to explain the Bible's teachings, it stirs something inside them that is both challenging and exciting...but this only happens to some people...not all.

I can see that if the seeker wanted to know how you view the bible and christ. Wouldn't it be up to them to find the truth and what you say be more from your point of view instead of christianity (lack of better word for now) as a whole?

We have a saying that there are three H's...someone has to be "Honest, Humble and Hungry" for God to open their eyes of understanding. If someone responds to the Bible's message, it is God who will open their heart to his truth. Not everyone wants what God is offering, so he allows us to make that choice for ourselves.

Yeah. Not everyone needs to hear it and others it just doesn't touch their soul no matter how much they read the bible. It's as if I gave you the Dharma. Of course you wouldn't want to hear what The Buddha says no matter how true it is. Same difference.

A "worthy" person is one who responds to the message about God's Kingdom.....we are not their judges, Jesus is. We are just the messengers. (Matthew 24:14)

I asked a question many times to you but don't think you answered it.

Is your view of the bible the only right view?

Talking to people, you get a feel for what they are seeking....in many cases people seek a God who conforms to what they are looking for, rather than conforming themselves to what God is looking for....I see it all the time here on RF.

Probably in person. You have tone of voice and body language. Online, no. We're using in person skills to determine the thoughts and wants of people online. Natural but not all accurate. Even age is a misdemeanor. Most of the jokes and insults are from the "wise" and I thought it would be the other way around here.

What is a "spiritual lifestyle" in your definition? Is being "spiritual" really all that's necessary?

It's a fancy word for, in a christian example, the experience of living in christ. It's what you experience and feel (or however you define devotion) when you're following the truth in which you are called. Many people walk spiritual lives (or lives in the spirit of whatever they believe). We're all working on it.

Jesus did admonish us......“Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open." IOW don't waste valuable time on fruitless arguments with people who don't really care about God and who don't value spiritual things. "Shake the dust off your feet" and move on...

That's sad. I assume it's been your experience all your life talking to people who can care less about god?

 

[Deeje]

I can see that if the seeker wanted to know how you view the bible and christ. Wouldn't it be up to them to find the truth and what you say be more from your point of view instead of christianity (lack of better word for now) as a whole?

It was Jesus who directed his disciples to preach about God’s kingdom. Following through on this command gives people in all nations and with all faith backgrounds, the opportunity to hear God’s message. It is offered, but never forced. The scripture I shared in Matthew 10:11-15 shows us how this work was to be done.

Jesus then said, as part of the sign of his return....”And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

Take a moment to understand what this is saying......his disciples were to offer this message about the kingdom (God’s incoming Theocratic government) to people of all nations in order for them to make decisions about it. It is offered as a “witness” (testimony) to all, regardless of their faith, so that no one will be able to say that God never told them about his intentions. The “end” will mean that decisions have been made and destinies set at that point. It will be the end of this present failed system of human governments, and the beginning of a new world government, not of man’s making, but with Jesus as its ruler. He will be supported by those chosen to rule with him in heaven, to bring us back to what Adam lost in the beginning. What God starts...he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)

Yeah. Not everyone needs to hear it and others it just doesn't touch their soul no matter how much they read the bible. It's as if I gave you the Dharma. Of course you wouldn't want to hear what The Buddha says no matter how true it is. Same difference.

We all have our own ideas about what “religion” should do for us.....some see it as a “duty” to perform certain observances without much thought of a relationship with their chosen deity(ies). Others go overboard with rituals, thinking that these are all that their god(s) require. It’s very individual depending on location and upbringing. But considering that Jesus commanded that the Christian message was to be preached in all the world, this proves that geography and ‘family religion’ have little to do with the impact of a message that has God’s spirit backing it up. God is searching for those whom he considers “worthy” of citizenship in his kingdom. He responds to us when we respond to his messengers. It’s really that simple....and it highlights the seriousness of our Christian responsibility to preach that message. (1 Corinthians 9:16)

I asked a question many times to you but don't think you answered it.

Is your view of the bible the only right view?

After careful research and study over many years, I believe it is. If we don’t believe we have the truth, then on what basis would we preach?

How could we go to people’s doors with a message we have no faith in? “I dunno” is not a religion......if a person is not confident of their beliefs, then it will be obvious that they have not answered the difficult questions for themselves. I find that even those of the clergy don’t have the answers people need.

Probably in person. You have tone of voice and body language. Online, no. We're using in person skills to determine the thoughts and wants of people online. Natural but not all accurate. Even age is a misdemeanor. Most of the jokes and insults are from the "wise" and I thought it would be the other way around here.

Yes, tone of voice and body language are important, but since God communicates to us via the written word, it is still obviously an effective means of communication.

It's a fancy word for, in a christian example, the experience of living in christ. It's what you experience and feel (or however you define devotion) when you're following the truth in which you are called. Many people walk spiritual lives (or lives in the spirit of whatever they believe). We're all working on it.

The concept of a “spiritual life” is different for people of different faiths. And it’s demonstrated on many levels. It is practiced because of what people assume that their ‘deities’ require....from the do little ‘slackers’ (religion in name only) all the way to the fanatical performers of what many consider is ridiculous. But we all have that choice....and by our actions we tell God all about ourselves. If we put mindless performance before a personal relationship with God, then we have lost the plot.

That's sad. I assume it's been your experience all your life talking to people who can care less about god?

Sad? The outcome will be sad for the majority of people living when “the end” comes....but that is not our focus. It is those who respond and act on the message that is a cause for great joy. (Luke 15:7)

As messengers, we cannot concentrate on those who refuse to listen. We take the same position as Noah did before the flood. He would have had relatives and neighbors who perished in the flood, but it was their choice not to listen to Noah’s warning. He was not to force people to listen, but to tell them about God’s intentions and leave it up to them. Jesus did the same.....the message is offered, but unless we act on it, it will not save us.

That is how I see things.....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It was Jesus who directed his disciples to preach about God’s kingdom. Following through on this command gives people in all nations and with all faith backgrounds, the opportunity to hear God’s message. It is offered, but never forced. The scripture I shared in
Matthew 10:11-15 shows us how this work was to be done.

Jesus did get a bit upset when people didn't listen to what he offered?

Usually, when people offer something and the other says no, there is no hard-feelings, no blame that the other person didn't listen, and no consequence (well, in a healthy confrontation), because one hasn't received the offering.

The thing is, though Deejee, the religion isn't a positive religion for those who don't follow the same beliefs as you and your peers do.

But my question?

I can make assumptions but I rather a yes or no or direct answer.

We all have our own ideas about what “religion” should do for us.....some see it as a “duty” to perform certain observances without much thought of a relationship with their chosen deity(ies). Others go overboard with rituals, thinking that these are all that their god(s) require. It’s very individual depending on location and upbringing. But considering that Jesus commanded that the Christian message was to be preached in all the world, this proves that geography and ‘family religion’ have little to do with the impact of a message that has God’s spirit backing it up. God is searching for those whom he considers “worthy” of citizenship in his kingdom. He responds to us when we respond to his messengers. It’s really that simple....and it highlights the seriousness of our Christian responsibility to preach that message. (1 Corinthians 9:16)

Whatever you "do" for your faith or in the name of it (like scripture quoting) is part of a religious duty. Who it's from and who orchestrated it doesn't invalidate the definition and context of the term.

After careful research and study over many years, I believe it is. If we don’t believe we have the truth, then on what basis would we preach?

That I agree. We just differ in who is worth being talked to.

How could we go to people’s doors with a message we have no faith in? “I dunno” is not a religion......if a person is not confident of their beliefs, then it will be obvious that they have not answered the difficult questions for themselves. I find that even those of the clergy don’t have the answers people need.

The thing is, I'm not disagreeing with your conviction. We disagree on how your conviction is placed at the expense of other people's spiritual wellbeing and knowledge. Outside of that, every person has a right to show conviction by duty and word for their beliefs. It's a cultural thing in how one goes about it. Some let god do the talking and they interact as god sees fit and others are more evangelist and do the talking as god uses them as he sees fit. Some just let god move them without intervention at all. It highly depends on the person.

Yes, tone of voice and body language are important, but since God communicates to us via the written word, it is still obviously an effective means of communication.

You can't compare the two, though. We learn what's true and what's not through body language, tone, aura of that person, and so forth. It's a human survival mechanism.

The god part is based on your experiences and prebiases of what "should be" true and what shouldn't. It takes no account in the other person's point of view. In many cases it's harmless but when externalized, it can do more harm than good. But the person expressing it doesn't see it, that's the problem.

The concept of a “spiritual life” is different for people of different faiths. And it’s demonstrated on many levels. It is practiced because of what people assume that their ‘deities’ require....from the do little ‘slackers’ (religion in name only) all the way to the fanatical performers of what many consider is ridiculous. But we all have that choice....and by our actions we tell God all about ourselves. If we put mindless performance before a personal relationship with God, then we have lost the plot.

On a good note: Yes. I agree. It's different for each person of different faiths.

As for who is right and who isn't, what you're saying is an opinion. Unless people agree with you from their own experiences, it's hard to really know more than that. For example, each christian has their own view and relationship with god. Yet, not all christians understand that without judging what the nature of that other person's relationship should be.

As messengers, we cannot concentrate on those who refuse to listen. We take the same position as Noah did before the flood. He would have had relatives and neighbors who perished in the flood, but it was their choice not to listen to Noah’s warning. He was not to force people to listen, but to tell them about God’s intentions and leave it up to them. Jesus did the same.....the message is offered, but unless we act on it, it will not save us.

Let me ask. Are they refusing to listen or are they not agreeing with you?