What if Jesus went to the Vatican

[Gnostic Seeker]

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

Everything is obviously NOT accomplished - so the laws are in effect.

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I've already answered this.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Given the ratio between what they have in their hands and how much they help, I think they're not that invested.

If any religion were truly and fully invested in the poor they'd liquidate all their finery to end world poverty. Wonder how much in billions all those vestments, golden cups, statues, etc. amount to? This is another innovation as far as Christianity goes. The earliest Christians met in houses and graveyards.

 

[Ingledsva]

The Vatican is so obscenely rich that it really downplays Jesus' temptation of wealth and power. He turned it all down, yet the "official" first church, the Vatican, fully embraced it.

You have to remember - in this story - Jesus is being tempted by the tempter.

He passes and starts his teaching.

He is a human. The Temple/Church is an organization, that requires money to operate. Torah says to give Gold, etc. to the Temple/Church.

Depending on whom you believe - the Catholic Church is between 1 and 2 thousand years old. That is a lot of time to acquire, grow, and pass on church wealth. And as I said - they gave 70 Million to Charity in 2012.

Also, most Catholic cathedrals are ancient. Most newer Catholic churches are pretty much like any other Christian groups.


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[Ingledsva]

I've already answered this.

How so? You posted the first verse but left out the second, - which most people do.

The second clearly states the Laws are still in effect.

5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

Everything is obviously NOT accomplished - so for them the laws are still in effect.

Jesus was talking about what the Pharisees had changed them into. Also their letter-of-the-law, rather then understanding the meaning of the laws.

Hence the - Not what goes into your mouth ...

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[Gnostic Seeker]

Unless Jesus saw his teachings as culminating in the fulfillment of the law, which is what most orthodox sects put forth. I pointed out how in my opinion we have it from his words that his teachings transcend the law.

 

[Ingledsva]

Unless Jesus saw his teachings as culminating in the fulfillment of the law, which is what most orthodox sects put forth. I pointed out how in my opinion we have it from his words that his teachings transcend the law.

He is saying - straight out - that he is the awaited Messiah - whom was supposed to bring about the end - and final Judgment.

In that vein - Since we, the heavens, and the earth, are still here, so is the LAW, - as ALL has NOT been accomplished.


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[Shycat]

maybe something like this?

I loved this movie.
I like the actor who plays the Pope. He was in Hannibal too. Though he didn't have near as good a time in Italy then as he is here.


WWJD if he went to the Vatican.

I think he'd fashion a whip as he did when he went after the money changers in the temple back in the book of Matthew and cleanse the whole place of the vipers who blaspheme his name and message.

I'd love to see the Vatican because I love the architecture there. But as to Jesus' reaction to it all, I don't think he would be pleased considering the RCC doctrine is contrary to everything he taught.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

I don't think he would be pleased considering the RCC doctrine is contrary to everything he taught.

Which ones?


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[Gnostic Seeker]

He is saying - straight out - that he is the awaited Messiah - whom was supposed to bring about the end - and final Judgment.

In that vein - Since we, the heavens, and the earth, are still here, so is the LAW, - as ALL has NOT been accomplished.


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I feel I've already addressed that. If Jesus taught his disciples not to fast he went outside the law. The law says to afflict yourselves on Yom Kippur.

 

[Ingledsva]

I feel I've already addressed that. If Jesus taught his disciples not to fast he went outside the law. The law says to afflict yourselves on Yom Kippur.

He very specifically says until heaven and earth pass away, - so no.

He was not tossing the law - he was saying they were misusing it, not understanding it, and following TRADITIONS of man - concerning those laws.

Note the wording here ascribed to Jesus -

Mar 7:7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

He is very specifically saying they are changing the laws of God, - NOT - that the Laws are bad - or no longer in effect.


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[Gnostic Seeker]

Fasting on Yom Kippur is not a tradition of man if you believe the law is from God.

 

[Ingledsva]

Fasting on Yom Kippur is not a tradition of man if you believe the law is from God.

Where is the law in the original language, concerning this?

Then, where is the verse with Jesus refuting that law?

Is he actually saying the traditions of man have been tacked onto Yom Kippur?

Also - I didn't say this. That verse is supposedly from Jesus.


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[Ingledsva]

repeat

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[Gnostic Seeker]

It says in the gospels Jesus told his disciples not to fast when both Jews and John's disciples were- presumably on Yom Kippur. Jesus seems to have taught against all fasting when he said there is no need for fasting while the bridegroom is present (see also: Thomas). The law says to afflict yourselves on Yom Kippur (in fasting) and that it is the sabbath of sabbaths.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You have to remember - in this story - Jesus is being tempted by the tempter.

He passes and starts his teaching.

He is a human. The Temple/Church is an organization, that requires money to operate. Torah says to give Gold, etc. to the Temple/Church.

Depending on whom you believe - the Catholic Church is between 1 and 2 thousand years old. That is a lot of time to acquire, grow, and pass on church wealth. And as I said - they gave 70 Million to Charity in 2012.

Also, most Catholic cathedrals are ancient. Most newer Catholic churches are pretty much like any other Christian groups.


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The Vatican has been obscenely wealthy since at least the Medieval era, which means about no less than half of it's existence. It may not have had as much wealth during the later years of the Roman Empire, but it's wealth nevertheless dates back to antiquity.
And while 70 million is very useful and very needed, to the Vatican it's a drop in the bucket compared to wealth that is far more vast than many countries combined. And here, one these newer Catholic churches is one of the largest, tallest and most extravagant buildings in the city.

 

[roger1440]

Jesus would probably get robbed. The Vatican has the highest crime in the world.

 

[Ingledsva]

It says in the gospels Jesus told his disciples not to fast when both Jews and John's disciples were- presumably on Yom Kippur. Jesus seems to have taught against all fasting when he said there is no need for fasting while the bridegroom is present (see also: Thomas). The law says to afflict yourselves on Yom Kippur (in fasting) and that it is the sabbath of sabbaths.

I found what I assume are the Yom Kippur verses, LEVITICUS 23: 26 - 32.

They don't say anything about fasting. They say to make a blood atonement, and do no work, rest and think about your evil.

Is the fasting - tradition of man?

For the Jesus part, - I assume you are talking about Mat 9:14-15? You really need to site the book and verse when you mention them.

You chose a very specific verse. The preceding verse lets us know it was ONLY Jesus' 12 disciples. It mentions a time - he taught 3 1/2 years.

And it obviously doesn't say - "Jesus seems to have taught against all fasting."

It ends by saying they will start fasting again when he is gone.

Mat 9 14-15 - Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.


There are a lot of verses about fasting.


Matthew 6:16-18
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.


Acts 14:23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Joel 2:12 “Yet even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;

Acts 13:3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.

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[psychoslice]

Jesus was born and moulded from the Vatican.

 

[Ingledsva]

The Vatican has been obscenely wealthy since at least the Medieval era, which means about no less than half of it's existence. It may not have had as much wealth during the later years of the Roman Empire, but it's wealth nevertheless dates back to antiquity.
And while 70 million is very useful and very needed, to the Vatican it's a drop in the bucket compared to wealth that is far more vast than many countries combined. And here, one these newer Catholic churches is one of the largest, tallest and most extravagant buildings in the city.

Oh I understand they are "obscenely" wealthy. However they have accumulated it over many years, and it is theirs. Members continue to give money. They could give me some of it - I won't protest.

What church are you talking about?

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[roger1440]

Vatican City has the highest crime rate in the world - Intellihub.com
And you thought I was kidding