What if the story of Cain and Able is ....

[Sunstone]

A simpler explanation of the 'War in pre- Earth" or "Heaven"?

Such speculations might be entertaining, but they have no evidence to support them.

 

[Caladan]

A simpler explanation of the 'War in pre- Earth" or "Heaven"?

If we have to get philosophical, I would think it would represent more the struggle within early human society between hunter-gatherers or at least nomadic herders (Able) and agriculturalists (Cain).

 

[outhouse]

If we have to get philosophical, I would think it would represent more the struggle within early human society between hunter-gatherers or at least nomadic herders (Able) and agriculturalists (Cain).

exactly what I stated in post #5


One part is that it parallels early civilization and the conflicts between nomadic lifestyle VS city life.

on the same side of the coin It also parallels the burnt meat smell god loves in sacrifices VS sacrifices from agriculture.

 

[Ingledsva]

Very funny. What does the Tower of Babel story, and human skin, have to do with interpretations of the Cain and Abel story?

The story of Adam and Eve is a representation of the separation of man and women; the story of the Tower of Babel is a representation of the separation of language.

Well of course we are talking about what the interpretations of these verses might be - however - you replied with those answers to the posts below! Would you like to try again?

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Note that they put a mark on him after the sacrifice/murder. A Jewish site that I was on said that the priest that killed the "scape-goat/human" was then marked so none would approach him, and sent off.

Does this not sound like the story of the Tower of Babble??

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In other words a sacrifice takes on the sins - someone has to kill him as a sacrifice - then he the killer can't be killed (or someone would have his blood on their hands,) so he is marked and sent off.

Do us humans not all wear skin?

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[Me Myself]

I just love how God hates animals so much as to tell Cain the vegetables werent suitable enough sacrifice.

Then when cain sacrifices something smarter than both a veg and a lamb he gets punished.

I understand the poor crazy fellah.

 

[Ingledsva]

I just love how God hates animals so much as to tell Cain the vegetables werent suitable enough sacrifice.

Then when cain sacrifices something smarter than both a veg and a lamb he gets punished.

I understand the poor crazy fellah.

LOL! That is actually why I question what this story is supposed to represent.

When his veggies were not good enough, he killed a human. Then he wasn't actually punished - he had a mark put on him, and was sent out - as the Jewish site that I went to, said ancient priests that performed the ultimate sacrifice were!

He actually goes off, has children, founds a city and country, etc.

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[Freelance_Policeman]

No, I'm not. We know the Hebrew originally had human sacrifice. There are plenty of books out there about it. And of course the Bible later tells the Hebrew people don't do it.

Note that they put a mark on him after the sacrifice/murder. A Jewish site that I was on said that the priest that killed the "scape-goat/human" was then marked so none would approach him, and sent off.

In other words a sacrifice takes on the sins - someone has to kill him as a sacrifice - then he the killer can't be killed (or someone would have his blood on their hands,) so he is marked and sent off.

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I've never heard of priests doing that.

The sacrifice was obviously not acceptable to YHWH anyway. And when did the Jews ever commit human sacrifice which was accepted by God?

 

[Awoon]

The Levites ate the sacrifices. They weren't vegetarians. So the writers of the myth of C&A's sacrifices made the story to seem that God preferred meat.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I actually think it represents the first human sacrifice to YHVH, and the scape-goat concept.

Well, let's take a look at the story. Here it is in the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible:

And Adam knew Eve his wife; who conceived and brought forth Cain, saying: I have gotten a man through God. And again she brought forth his brother Abel. And Abel was a shepherd, and Cain a husbandman. And it came to pass after many days, that Cain offered, of the fruits of the earth, gifts to the Lord. Abel also offered of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat: and the Lord had respect to Abel, and to his offerings. But to Cain and his offerings he had no respect: and Cain was exceeding angry, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said to him: Why art thou angry? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou do well, shalt thou not receive? but if ill, shall not sin forthwith be present at the door? but the lust thereof shall be under thee, and thou shalt have dominion over it. And Cain said to Abel his brother: Let us go forth abroad. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and slew him. And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered: I know not: am I my brother's keeper? And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth to me from the earth. Now therefore cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and recieved the blood of thy brother at thy hand. When thou shalt till it, it shall not yield to thee its fruit: a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be upon the earth. And Cain said to the Lord: My iniquity is greater than that I may deserve pardon. Behold thou dost cast me out this day from the face of the earth, and from thy face I shall be hid, and I shall be a vagabond and a fugitive on the earth: every one therefore that findeth me, shall kill me. And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not so be: but whosoever shall kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him. And Cain went out from the face of the Lord, and dwelt as a fugitive on the earth at the east side of Eden.
(Genesis 4:1-16 DRB)

I see absolutely nothing indicating human sacrifice in this story? Where do you see an indication of human sacrifice?

 

[Ingledsva]

I've never heard of priests doing that.

The sacrifice was obviously not acceptable to YHWH anyway. And when did the Jews ever commit human sacrifice which was accepted by God?

I got that marked priest info off of a Jewish site.

As to the human sacrifice they did this before, and according to the Bible, AFTER the Abrahamic covenant.

There are quite a few books and articles on the subject. Biblical Archaeology has had articles. One such book is -

The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son - The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity - Jon D. Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Divinity School and the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University.

Think about it? Isn't it odd that Abraham didn't think it odd that YHVH told him to sacrifice his son Isaac?

Or that it wasn't odd to the writers that Jephthah would say he would SACRIFICE the first person out of his door? It turned out to be his daughter.

Or the wording concerning the dead "Firstborn" of Egypt REPLACING the "Firstborn" of the Hebrew?

EZEKIEL 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and ordinances whereby they should not live; and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb (First Born), that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man
shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN"
and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed:
every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.
29 - None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed;
BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

"… In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

Jewish Ritual Murder, a Historical Investigation, by Hellmut Schramm, Ph.D

MISHNAH. "HE WHO GIVES OF HIS SEED TO MOLECH INCURS NO PUNISHMENT UNLESS HE DELIVERS IT TO MOLECH AND CAUSES IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE. IF HE GAVE IT TO MOLECH BUT DID NOT CAUSE IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE, OR THE REVERSE, HE INCURS NO PENALTY, UNLESS HE DOES BOTH." — Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 64a Soncino 1961 Edition, page 437

We are in fact told in the Bible that the Israelites kept turning back to their original Gods.
From Catholic Encyclopedia -
"The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity …"

“In the week's Torah portion, G-d says about the Mishkan( Tabernacle)
"V'neekdash Bichvodi", I will be made holy in my honor (loosely
translated). The Talmud says to read it that "I will be made holy through
my honored ones" referring to Aaron's 2 son's who were killed. Their death
was part of the dedication of the Mishkan…”
http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/fu/0343.html

"The motive for these sacrifices is not far to seek. It is given in Micah vi. 7: "Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" In the midst of the disasters which were befalling the nation men felt that if the favor of Yhwh could be regained it was worth any price they could pay. Their Semitic kindred worshiped their gods with offerings of their children, and in their desperation the Israelites did the same. For some reason, perhaps because not all the priestly and prophetic circles approved of the movement, they made the offerings, not in the Temple, but at an altar or pyre called "Tapheth" (LXX.), erected in the valley of Hinnom (comp. W. R. Smith, "Rel. of Sem." 2d ed., p. 372). "Tapheth," also, was later pointed "Topheth," after the analogy of "bosheth." In connection with these extraordinary offerings the worshipers continued the regular Temple sacrifices to Yhwh (Ezek. xxiii. 39)."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jspartid=718&letter=M#ixzz1RUY3XCSI

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[Me Myself]

LOL! That is actually why I question what this story is supposed to represent.

When his veggies were not good enough, he killed a human. Then he wasn't actually punished - he had a mark put on him, and was sent out - as the Jewish site that I went to, said ancient priests that performed the ultimate sacrifice were!

He actually goes off, has children, founds a city and country, etc.

*

I was almost sure he was scolded in the bible, you mean they *gasp* lied!

 

[Ingledsva]

Well, let's take a look at the story. Here it is in the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible:

And Adam knew Eve his wife; who conceived and brought forth Cain, saying: I have gotten a man through God. And again she brought forth his brother Abel. And Abel was a shepherd, and Cain a husbandman. And it came to pass after many days, that Cain offered, of the fruits of the earth, gifts to the Lord. Abel also offered of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat: and the Lord had respect to Abel, and to his offerings. But to Cain and his offerings he had no respect: and Cain was exceeding angry, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said to him: Why art thou angry? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou do well, shalt thou not receive? but if ill, shall not sin forthwith be present at the door? but the lust thereof shall be under thee, and thou shalt have dominion over it. And Cain said to Abel his brother: Let us go forth abroad. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and slew him. And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered: I know not: am I my brother's keeper? And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth to me from the earth. Now therefore cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and recieved the blood of thy brother at thy hand. When thou shalt till it, it shall not yield to thee its fruit: a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be upon the earth. And Cain said to the Lord: My iniquity is greater than that I may deserve pardon. Behold thou dost cast me out this day from the face of the earth, and from thy face I shall be hid, and I shall be a vagabond and a fugitive on the earth: every one therefore that findeth me, shall kill me. And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not so be: but whosoever shall kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him. And Cain went out from the face of the Lord, and dwelt as a fugitive on the earth at the east side of Eden.
(Genesis 4:1-16 DRB)

I see absolutely nothing indicating human sacrifice in this story? Where do you see an indication of human sacrifice?

First I will say read it in the Hebrew - however -

His sacrifice is not accepted.

His brother's was - he is acceptable.

He kills his "acceptable" brother.

He then has the mark put on him - that the Jewish site I went to, said was put on the one who killed "the one that took on the sins of the people." The "acceptable" sacrifice. He was then sent off as they were. He was not killed.

These stories get changed over time, especially if they don't understand the language. The story as translated makes no sense. For instance we are told in the Bible that BOTH types of offerings are to be made. So what was this story originally teaching us?

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[Breathe]

First I will say read it in the Hebrew - however -

[...]

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How would you explain this, though?

10. And He said, "What have you done? Hark! Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the earth.

11. And now, you are cursed even more than the ground, which opened its mouth to take your brother's blood from your hand.

12. When you till the soil, it will not continue to give its strength to you; you shall be a wanderer and an exile in the land."

13. And Cain said to the Lord, "Is my iniquity too great to bear?

14. Behold You have driven me today off the face of the earth, and I shall be hidden from before You, and I will be a wanderer and an exile in the land, and it will be that whoever finds me will kill me."

[...]

16. And Cain went forth from before the Lord, and he dwelt in the land of the wanderers, to the east of Eden.

- Source: Chabad.org Complete Jewish Bible​

Do these not indicate that Cain is punished for his actions?

 

[Tbone]

A simpler explanation of the 'War in pre- Earth" or "Heaven"?

What if the story of Cain and Able is .... TRUE?

 

[Ingledsva]

How would you explain this, though?

10. And He said, "What have you done? Hark! Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the earth.

11. And now, you are cursed even more than the ground, which opened its mouth to take your brother's blood from your hand.

12. When you till the soil, it will not continue to give its strength to you; you shall be a wanderer and an exile in the land."

13. And Cain said to the Lord, "Is my iniquity too great to bear?

14. Behold You have driven me today off the face of the earth, and I shall be hidden from before You, and I will be a wanderer and an exile in the land, and it will be that whoever finds me will kill me."

[...]

16. And Cain went forth from before the Lord, and he dwelt in the land of the wanderers, to the east of Eden.

- Source: Chabad.org Complete Jewish Bible
​

Do these not indicate that Cain is punished for his actions?

Well, first, There is no reason not to take that as some ritual wording having to do with taking on of the sin of the Sacrifice as stated earlier - then being marked - and sent off.

Secondly, he is not punished, and the ground obviously produces, as it says he founded a great city.

Some curse.

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[Ingledsva]

What if the story of Cain and Able is .... TRUE?

It can not be true as written - as we are given genealogies - and we have humans, and their cities far-far older.

The Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel stories, are just teaching stories.

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[horizon_mj1]

It can not be true as written - as we are given genealogies - and we have humans, and their cities far-far older.

The Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel stories, are just teaching stories.

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They are both representations of separation, how is this not obvious. Yes they are "Stories", but both are stories in which my hold fundamental facts in which science seeks to find clues in Evolution. IMO

 

[Gjallarhorn]

They are both representations of separation, how is this not obvious. Yes they are "Stories", but both are stories in which my hold fundamental facts in which science seeks to find clues in Evolution. IMO

"Seek and ye shall find", the Truth of confirmation bias.

 

[Ingledsva]

It can not be true as written - as we are given genealogies - and we have humans, and their cities far-far older.

The Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel stories, are just teaching stories.

They are both representations of separation, how is this not obvious. Yes they are "Stories", but both are stories in which my hold fundamental facts in which science seeks to find clues in Evolution. IMO

So what exactly do you think they are teaching?

What are those "fundamental facts," and clues science seeks in evolution, that these stories teach?

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[idea]

If we have to get philosophical, I would think it would represent more the struggle within early human society between hunter-gatherers or at least nomadic herders (Able) and agriculturalists (Cain).

the eternal struggle...
[youtube]XB90b8xXYIk[/youtube]
The Farmer and the Cowman Should be Friends - YouTube

that is the fun part about the scriptures though, everything is symbolic, line upon line. Our ability to see more than the obvious, to assign deeper meanings, is part of the human experience.