What if The Vikings did not convert to Christianity?

[Kori]

Well this could be a complicated subject. How would later events turn out? How would recent or Semi-Recent events turn out? World War I? World War II? That is if they happened at least somewhat the same way. The Russo-Japanese War may have been altered as well. A good subject I have been thinking about since 2009 and one I have been waiting to bring up here but I waited because I didn't want you all to think I am crazy... well done me! Anyway GO!

 

[LuisDantas]

From what I have learned of Nordic cultures (admittedly awfully little, but I try) I get the feeling that keeping their paganism would be considerably beneficial. It would make the acceptance of diversity of beliefs somewhat easier and might well encourage Christianity to be a bit more honest with itself.

I don't particularly expect that to lead to many meaningful changes in the World Wars, but what impact it would have would probably have been positive as well.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Pure guess work. Might as well try to see what would be different if the sky was pink instead of blue.

 

[Kori]

Pure guess work. Might as well try to see what would be different if the sky was pink instead of blue.

You do realize that Alternate History is Popular? Like the books Rising Sun Victorious, Third Reich Victorious, and Cold War Hot just to name a few.

 

[Nietzsche]

Well this could be a complicated subject. How would later events turn out? How would recent or Semi-Recent events turn out? World War I? World War II? That is if they happened at least somewhat the same way. The Russo-Japanese War may have been altered as well. A good subject I have been thinking about since 2009 and one I have been waiting to bring up here but I waited because I didn't want you all to think I am crazy... well done me! Anyway GO!

When does this happen, and why? Regardless of those things, you're not getting anything at all like the history of our world. After your point of divergence(the thing that leads to the failure of Christianity in the North) everything will be different. Let's use a wild guess, just for example;

The Great Heathen Army is more successful and pushes out/refurbishes the ecclesial strongholds of Papal influence in England, Wales, Scotland & Ireland. No more direct influence on Britain for the Papacy without mounting an offensive.

But for the Raven Banner to plant itself firmly on English soil, it will have to have killed & maimed many people. People who in our world would be ancestors of some of the most influential people on earth. You've also got different people moving around to different places. Not to mention the impossible to quantify small-scale differences this wil cause on things we can't even see.

 

[Nietzsche]

Pure guess work. Might as well try to see what would be different if the sky was pink instead of blue.

You can take that approach. You know, if you happen to have zero interest in human society, just generally lacking any respect for historical achievements and how they shaped our world and ourselves, and don't want to appreciate or even consider how seemingly meaningless events both have and could change the direction our world went in.

So yeah, it's not a big deal.

 

[Flankerl]

How would recent or Semi-Recent events turn out? World War I? World War II? That is if they happened at least somewhat the same way. The Russo-Japanese War may have been altered as well.

Uhm if you go the full way with this you can't even think about recent events because you have to consider the modern era where Sweden was a major power in the 30 years war and Northern Wars.
And then of course the Middle Ages. Denmark directly borders the HRE, which would result in constant Crusades. And why would the Christians stop there?
The Norsemen would have to repel them again and again.
No the Christians wouldn't stop. That was the Middle Ages, there was no direct benefit in the Northern Crusades. There were "heathens" and they had to be dealt with.

For crying out loud there are even still words from the Northern Crusades in German.
Heidenfahrt = Heathentrip aka let's go and slay us some Heathens
Heidenspaß = Heathenfun aka let's have some fun and slay some Heathens

 

[Sees]

It's hard for me to imagine as it simply wasn't an option - so many elements would have to be different...along the lines of Christianity not making it big time in Rome/dying off centuries earlier.

Would be fun to read some versions folks come up with.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Scandinavia would be less culturally "Western". The Latin alphabet would be adapted way later, if at all. Women's rights would be better, animal sacrifice would be less stigmatized in the modern world and there would likely be more trade between Northern Europe and the Asian steppes. Scandinavian countries would likely have different borders than they do now, and probably wouldn't have very friendly relations with the rest of Europe. Norsemen would likely fight in the Crusades as mercenaries but it wouldn't really be their problem. Northern Europe would sorta form its own religious and political bloc, and I would bet that other groups such as Balts, Slavs and Finno-Ugric peoples wouldn't convert for whatever reason the Norse didn't. Looting would probably still subside after a while, just because the socioeconomic factors behind it would come to a close. Finally, flags would have ravens and hammers and other cool stuff like that on them instead of crosses.

 

[Kori]

It's hard for me to imagine as it simply wasn't an option - so many elements would have to be different...along the lines of Christianity not making it big time in Rome/dying off centuries earlier.

Would be fun to read some versions folks come up with.

Back in 2010 I wrote 3 very basic chapters of the idea. That computer died a short time later. I have been rethinking the idea. However I am asking here because the chapters I let people read knew nothing about Norse. I have a solid plan in mind and I am so hard headed I will not change it. But see that this site has some smart and semi-smart people I thought I would mention it. However one of my rules for the story is I will not devote a chapter to anything before the 1900's. It starts off in 2006 and the 21st century Vikings want to take control of Eastern Europe. But it is not that simple. The Norse Kingdom of Scandinavia has a new Queen. She is young (21 years old), formerly in the Military, has combat experience, and is a lesbian.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Christianity never seemed to really "take" with the Norse and some of the other European groups, anyways.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Back in 2010 I wrote 3 very basic chapters of the idea. That computer died a short time later. I have been rethinking the idea. However I am asking here because the chapters I let people read knew nothing about Norse. I have a solid plan in mind and I am so hard headed I will not change it. But see that this site has some smart and semi-smart people I thought I would mention it. However one of my rules for the story is I will not devote a chapter to anything before the 1900's. It starts off in 2006 and the 21st century Vikings want to take control of Eastern Europe. But it is not that simple. The Norse Kingdom of Scandinavia has a new Queen. She is young (21 years old), formerly in the Military, has combat experience, and is a lesbian.

I doubt there would be a "Kingdom of Scandinavia". There'd be no reason for a less centralized religion to create a more centralized political region.

 

[Kori]

I doubt there would be a "Kingdom of Scandinavia". There'd be no reason for a less centralized religion to create a more centralized political region.

Yeah well keep in mind all though out history tribes and so on have united to some call. Maybe for defense, maybe just to survive. Groups that once hated each other and still do have in some cases.

 

[Nietzsche]

Uhm if you go the full way with this you can't even think about recent events because you have to consider the modern era where Sweden was a major power in the 30 years war and Northern Wars.
And then of course the Middle Ages. Denmark directly borders the HRE, which would result in constant Crusades. And why would the Christians stop there?
The Norsemen would have to repel them again and again.

It could be done, I think, if you could get a single ruler to marshal the combined forces of the North. A Great Heathen Army, but writ even larger. They don't need to push the Franks or what have you back to the Rhine, you could make a defensible position out of Jylland. If they get beyond that, you've got the straits. Mix that with continued assaults on European coasts and Britain and eventually the Christians will move on. They gave up the Holy Land, after all, and it was easier to get there.

I doubt there would be a "Kingdom of Scandinavia". There'd be no reason for a less centralized religion to create a more centralized political region.

Strength in numbers. It won't be centralized in the same way as Christendom, but it would have to happen, if only to prevent further incursions into their realm.

 

[Kori]

It could be done, I think, if you could get a single ruler to marshal the combined forces of the North. A Great Heathen Army, but writ even larger. They don't need to push the Franks or what have you back to the Rhine, you could make a defensible position out of Jylland. If they get beyond that, you've got the straits. Mix that with continued assaults on European coasts and Britain and eventually the Christians will move on. They gave up the Holy Land, after all, and it was easier to get there.



Strength in numbers. It won't be centralized in the same way as Christendom, but it would have to happen, if only to prevent further incursions into their realm.

I think that Kingdoms of Christendom would realize that fighting a force that looked forward to death in battle would be a losing endeavor after well a few hundred stubborn pointless battles. The Landscape of Scandinavia favors defenders. Not to mention Russian and Baltic areas would have people seeing Western Europe's Christian Adventurism as a threat and by extension give opportunity to the Vikings. Maybe not an Alliance but distract and keep the West on guard. Remember, the more desperate a force acts the more uneasy nearby nations become. It doesn't matter if it friend, foe, or neutral.

 

[Nietzsche]

I think that Kingdoms of Christendom would realize that fighting a force that looked forward to death in battle would be a losing endeavor after well a few hundred stubborn pointless battles. The Landscape of Scandinavia favors defenders. Not to mention Russian and Baltic areas would have people seeing Western Europe's Christian Adventurism as a threat and by extension give opportunity to the Vikings. Maybe not an Alliance but distract and keep the West on guard. Remember, the more desperate a force acts the more uneasy nearby nations become. It doesn't matter if it friend, foe, or neutral.

Well it should be noted that in the crusades against Lithuania, apparently a number of their ranks were made up of Norse pagans with nowhere else to go, and decided that it was either victory or Valhalla. Really, they'd have an easy-enough time merging with their other pagan neighbours. Easier than the Christians did, anyway.

 

[Flankerl]

It could be done, I think, if you could get a single ruler to marshal the combined forces of the North. A Great Heathen Army, but writ even larger. They don't need to push the Franks or what have you back to the Rhine, you could make a defensible position out of Jylland. If they get beyond that, you've got the straits. Mix that with continued assaults on European coasts and Britain and eventually the Christians will move on. They gave up the Holy Land, after all, and it was easier to get there.

How was it easier to travel through the entire Mediterranean than just to hop across the Baltic?
Especially if you consider the insanity of the Crusaders.

I think that Kingdoms of Christendom would realize that fighting a force that looked forward to death in battle would be a losing endeavor after well a few hundred stubborn pointless battles.

You do realise that if you took part in a Crusade all your Sins were forgiven. Did they look forward to death? No not really, but they believed that if they died they would go straighter to heaven than any other Christian.

The Landscape of Scandinavia favors defenders.

Every countries landscape favours the defender. That's like a build in bonus for everyone. With certain measures it can be overcome. Technology, Logistics, Locals, etc.

Sure they could retreat into Scandinavia, away from the shore. But then they have to rely on hunting and provisions.

Not to mention Russian and Baltic areas would have people seeing Western Europe's Christian Adventurism as a threat and by extension give opportunity to the Vikings.

The Baltics? You mean those right next to Christian Poland and HRE? Ever heard about the Northern Crusades?

And Russian areas? So basically... Novgorodian Trade posts. Because that was everything there was back then.
The Kievan Rus' was as the name implies, more to the south and kinda Christian too. Moscow as a regional power did not exist.

Remember, the more desperate a force acts the more uneasy nearby nations become. It doesn't matter if it friend, foe, or neutral.

Uhm do you have any idea how far Novgorod or Kiev are from, let's say Skane? The people that would become the Russians had other problems than Central European conflicts. They weren't even unified or allied to each other.

 

[Augustus]

How would later events turn out?

The roles of Christianised Northmen in European history is significant.

The role of the Normans in the histories of Britain and France (and beyond) cannot simply be removed without fundamentally changing the history of these countries. You also change the history of things like the Crusades and the Crusader states. If the Rus don't become Christian then you have a different history of the Byzantine Empire, Russia, Soviet Union. etc.

The later events as we know them wouldn't have happened.

 

[Kori]

How was it easier to travel through the entire Mediterranean than just to hop across the Baltic?
Especially if you consider the insanity of the Crusaders.





You do realise that if you took part in a Crusade all your Sins were forgiven. Did they look forward to death? No not really, but they believed that if they died they would go straighter to heaven than any other Christian.




Every countries landscape favours the defender. That's like a build in bonus for everyone. With certain measures it can be overcome. Technology, Logistics, Locals, etc.

Sure they could retreat into Scandinavia, away from the shore. But then they have to rely on hunting and provisions.




The Baltics? You mean those right next to Christian Poland and HRE? Ever heard about the Northern Crusades?

And Russian areas? So basically... Novgorodian Trade posts. Because that was everything there was back then.
The Kievan Rus' was as the name implies, more to the south and kinda Christian too. Moscow as a regional power did not exist.




Uhm do you have any idea how far Novgorod or Kiev are from, let's say Skane? The people that would become the Russians had other problems than Central European conflicts. They weren't even unified or allied to each other.

Apologies this is a vast subject. Even though I began this thought in 2009 but because of life drama and the interruptions it caused my study of the history of all these areas I have missed. Plus I was also studying and hypothesizing other aspects of these events like Japan, India, Egypt, and so on. Vikings in the 21st Century would effect them too. The story I plan to start again is just for fun. Not meant to be some guide to possible Viking greatness. I am tired and cannot focus right now so please pardon any grammar errors in this post. I may go to bed in like 15 or 20 mins.

 

[Nietzsche]

How was it easier to travel through the entire Mediterranean than just to hop across the Baltic?
Especially if you consider the insanity of the Crusaders.

To my knowledge, Christianity was more or less an uncontested naval power in the Mediterranean. That wouldn't be the case in the Baltic & North Sea. That's going to make both moving troops and, most importantly, food extremely difficult. All the while the Norse, with their mastery of the rivers and streams, can constantly harass their armies and cities.

It'll undoubtedly be difficult, but it's doable if you can bring Scandinavia under a single ruler, allowing for a much more orchestrated and coordinated effort.