What If You're Wrong

[Skywalker]

We've been through this. Because you said that if Christianity was false, it would be "no loss" to you.


Thank you for providing an example of lack of compassion.

That doesn't lack compassion. In the context I was talking about I was saying that if Christianity is wrong I am not judged for following God.

Jesus came for spiritual liberation, not for social liberation. Spiritual liberation means reconciling people and God.

 

[thomas t]

Excessive punishments

When you come up with these sorts of accusations against the Highest, you would have to show at least that people suddenly stop sinning in hell. As I said. Here I had to reiterate myself, but the rest of your post was actually replying to my post without just repeating what has been said already.

So, thank you for the rest of your post.

Let's tackle the new points you've brought up:

And yes, a person may sin again in heaven.

my point was, a person may sin again in hell. Not heaven. Once they sin in hell then the correct action would be to punish it, as you say.

Ah - so now you think that because people could sin in hell, they could perhaps sin in heaven again, too? In a way that people in heaven could end up in hell?
Well, possibly they could commit a sin in heaven. I don't find a Bible verse ruling that out, at least.

However, a Christian made it clear that he is able to apologize. A Christian said sorry to God while on earth already. That's how you become a Christian, in my view. First step is "sorry God, please forgive!"
This may serve as an indication that he will be able to do so in heaven also, in my view. A sin + the due apology is totaly different from people just sinning, I think.

Furthermore, Bible shows there are many occasions in which newly become Christians have been willing to clean up the mess they've produced while the weren't Christians before. See Luke 19:8, for instance.
So, this again serves as an indication that if someone commits a sin in heaven, they would be willing to assume the responsibility over it and clean the mess up.

----
Lets get back to your criticism of an eternal hell.
Even if you apply a limited punishment for all sins... a potentially unlimited amount of sins after death would require an unlimited amount of limited punishments, too.

Moreover, Bible says there is also a gulf between those in heaven and those who are not, see Luke 16:26.
Lets assume someone serves a (limited) sentence of punishment in hell. After it is finished, that does not mean he is automatically transferred to the other side of the gulf.
To my knowlegde, people that already spend some 20 years in prison on earth often don't have any idea where to go once the term is finished. They don't have contacts outside, no flats, no place to go simply. And mentioned gulf would mean that, additionally, you would have to pay for the transport over it. That's at least how I interpret the situation. Who would be there to pay for it? you?

These are all hypothetical thoughts.
However, they are necessary to show that, before you make these unfounded accusations against God, you better make up your mind about how these kinds of problems should be handled otherwise. This is at least my opinion concerning your point.

edited to change the order of my points

 

[Subduction Zone]

When you come up with these sorts of accusations against the Highest, you would have to show at least that people suddenly stop sinning in hell. As I said. Here I had to reiterate myself, but the rest of your post was actually replying to my post without just repeating what has been said already.

So, thank you for the rest of your post.

Let's tackle the new points you've brought up:

Even if you apply a limited punishment for all sins... a potentially unlimited amount of sins after death would require an unlimited amount of limited punishments, too.

Moreover, Bible says there is also a gulf between those in heaven and those who are not, see Luke 16:26.
Lets assume someone serves a (limited) sentence of punishment in hell. After it is finished, that does not mean he is automatically transferred to the other side of the gulf.
To my knowlegde, people that already spend some 20 years in prison on earth often don't have any idea where to go once the term is finished. They don't have contacts outside, no flats, no place to go simply. And mentioned gulf would mean that, additionally, you would have to pay for the transport over it. That's at least how I interpret the situation. Who would be there to pay for it? you?

These are all hypothetical thoughts.
However, they are necessary to show that, before you make these unfounded accusations against God, you better make up your mind about how these kinds of problems should be handled otherwise. This is at least my opinion concerning your point.

my point was, a person may sin again in hell. Not heaven. Once they sin in hell then the correct action would be to punish it, as you say.

Ah - so now you think that because people could sin in hell, they could perhaps sin in heaven again, too? In a way that people in heaven could end up in hell?
Well, possibly they could commit a sin in heaven. I don't find a Bible verse ruling that out, at least.
However, a Christian made it clear that he is able to apologize. A Christian said sorry to God while on earth already. That's how you become a Christian, in my view. First step is "sorry God, please forgive!"
This may serve as an indication that he will be able to do so in heaven also, in my view. A sin + the due apology is totaly different from people just sinning, I think.

Furthermore, Bible shows there are many occasions in which newly become Christians have been willing to clean up the mess they've produced while the weren't Christians before. See Luke 19:8, for instance.
So, this again serves as an indication that if someone commits a sin in heaven, they would be willing to assume the responsibility over it and clean the mess up.

What did I tell you about quoting single verses out of context? In context that verse does not support you. That is merely an interpretation that you put upon it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, but it's worth remembering that Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

Out of all the people in the world who have a religion, about two thirds of them are either Christian or Muslim. Any conclusions we make about "religion as a whole" are going to be dominated by those two religions.

And personally, I find it a bit wearisome to hear objections to this from members of small religions.

A quick Googling tells me that the Baha'i faith represents about 0.07% of the world's population. While it may be important to you personally, it's almost completely irrelevant to the question of what "religion" is like.

I mean, if someone makes a statement about "religion" that's incorrect for every religion except Christianity, Islam & Hinduism, they're still 80% correct.

Except its not really a debate between theists and non theists, its a debate between Christians and atheists that has been going on since Darwin. I think you completely missed my point and Dawkin's from the video) about belief being largely culturally determined. My comment has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith other than it being a religion that is non-Christian along with Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and many more besides.

 

[viole]

I think I didn't make it clear enough what I was referring to.

I was address one narrow key assumption which you used earlier, and not other parts of your post.

The key assumption used in this reasonable point:



Only this, and nothing else.

If death of this mortal body were a final death, then definitely you'd be correct then to say that God is evil. It's very straightforward.

But the assumption is incorrect, and that invalidates the conclusion.

That's the only topic of post #197, which I'll copy for convenience, just below in a new post.

Then why most, if not all Christians pray, and ask others to pray for them, so that they delay their meeting with Jesus when diagnosed with terminal cancer?

Imagine Jesus: those guys do not seems much in a hurry to join me in heaven. And they expect Me to help them to stay where they are. Weird.

Ciao

- viole

 

[halbhh]

Then why most, if not all Christians pray, and ask others to pray for them, so that they delay their meeting with Jesus when diagnosed with terminal cancer?

Imagine Jesus: those guys do not seems much in a hurry to join me in heaven. And they expect Me to help them to stay where they are. Weird.

Ciao

- viole

Well, I can only report from my own experience, first hand, in my own extended family. For someone I actually knew well. The only person I've actually known really well that died of cancer and I was there to see it near the end, meeting him in the last few months.

There may have been a request for prayer early on perhaps, long before the cancer was considered terminal (he lived far away in another state also, so I wasn't around for that).

But, what I do know, from later, after the cancer was said to be terminal, then when I met him (it had been a few years since I'd seen him) he was not asking for prayer for healing -- not asking for that -- but instead, pretty amazingly, was giving everyone this kind of perfect consideration and listening and warmth/love. It was really something.

That's my own direct experience first hand with someone I know really well (closer inner circle of the people we know the best, from hundreds of hours of interaction).

We have at times heard in church a request to pray for someone with cancer, but not if it's 'terminal' so far as I can remember, but instead in those cases an entirely different kind of prayer was asked for when it's terminal: usually about helping the family. I cannot actually remember though praying for anyone with a non-terminal cancer that then died of cancer. But...we are mortal, and all of these temporary bodies are going to be returning to nature --

Ecclesiastes 12:7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

At least in the Christian faith (when it is really faith), we do look forward to passing on to be with Him.

 

[Audie]

Once you finally realize that I'm always right, the argument disintegrates! I'm just magical that way!

PXIRA, huh?

 

[paarsurrey]

What If You're Wrong
Friend @thomas t !

I , for one, get that one is definitely wrong in following sinful Paul and the sinful Pauline-Church of whatever (32000+) denomination, please.
One should instead, I understaqnd, follow the truthful teachings of Jesus and read from the Book Jesus and Mary used to read and worhsip and pray to "God-the-Father" the way Jesus and Mary used to worship and pray, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[thomas t]

What If You're Wrong
Friend @thomas t !

I , for one, get that one is definitely wrong in following sinful Paul and the sinful Pauline-Church of whatever (32000+) denomination, please.
One should instead, I understaqnd, follow the truthful teachings of Jesus and read from the Book Jesus and Mary used to read and worhsip and pray to "God-the-Father" the way Jesus and Mary used to worship and pray, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

what do you think I would answer?
Do you think that I say "I fully agree: rip out half of the Bible!"... or would you rather think that I say "listen to all the Bible!"....? please?
I mean as a Christian, how do you think I would answer this question?