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What is Anarchism?

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
I don't think anyone really denies that 10,000+ years ago when there were vastly fewer humans and they were much less technologically advanced and lived in small hunter-gatherer tribes, they organized themselves in ways that are less complex than they are now.
I think it is a bad assumption to make that non-state societies are necessarily less complex than state societies. Keep in mind that these people would frequently travel as a way of life, and therefore were bound to come across many different groups of people with potentially conflicting interests, necessitating negotiations, conflict management, or escalation and small scale warfare.

I've heard that the very early Middle Eastern cities like Jericho, which were founded at the cusp of the Agricultural Revolution, might have been special gathering places of political or religious significance to the many neighbouring tribes of hunter-gatherers.

Where state societies have clear advantages over non-state ones is in their potential and ability to enact coercive measures against their populations and other people in order to maintain existing hierarchies or support the pursuit of elite interests, something that non-state and proto-state societies have historically struggled with. States have become the norm because they almost completely wiped out non-state societies by force, plain and simple.

In this regard, you are correct to question the viability of anarchist societies. I consider it the fundamental paradox of anarchism that, during a time when state societies still exist, anarchist societies would have to adopt coercive features of state societies in order to compete - as they indeed have, historically, such as in Ukraine, Catalonia, or Paris.

Now that the toothpaste has been out of the tube for several thousand years, I don't really see the vast majority of humanity going back to anything like that, unless some cataclysmic event cuts the world's population by 90+% and the world's infrastructure is somehow wiped out. The transition to agrarian, and eventually city and state-based societies, provided us with benefits we didn't have as nomads. Personally I'm not eager to give those up, despite the negative aspects of large-scale government.
Of course not, but the case was never to go back to a nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle, but that the apparent failures of statism and capitalism might necessitate new models of governance and economics that reflect the changing needs of the majority population and can better realize their rights and necessities than an exploitative system of hierachies that is clearly not up to the task these days.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Nope. Hardly one.
YEC?
So we can say that nations are a result of life?
Or of gravity? Or that god planned them right
before the beginning of the universe?
Yes, we can trace all things human also back to the
Chicxulub asteroid, but is that what you'd call a
reasonable and/or parsimonious connection?
Is everything that happened something that must have
happened?
Emergent properties are simply strong tendencies
that we observe, eg, Boyle's law for gases. Whether
we know the causes or not is irrelevant.
BTW, I attribute nothing to sky fairies.
Is war always a result of capitalism just because some
(well, almost all) capitalist nations at one time in their
history start a war?
War is an emergent property of hominids.
It exists in chimpanzees, & in humans well
before capitalism & socialism.
Correlation is not causation.
When you can't explain the mechanism that lead
from B to C and that that mechanism is inevitable,
you don't really have a case.
I haven't addressed the underlying mechanism.
I could, but there's no need because it's irrelevant.
Analogy time...
Boyle's Law was observed & exploited long before
being explained by statistical mechanics.
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I think it is a bad assumption to make that non-state societies are necessarily less complex than state societies. Keep in mind that these people would frequently travel as a way of life, and therefore were bound to come across many different groups of people with potentially conflicting interests, necessitating negotiations, conflict management, or escalation and small scale warfare.

I've heard that the very early Middle Eastern cities like Jericho, which were founded at the cusp of the Agricultural Revolution, might have been special gathering places of political or religious significance to the many neighbouring tribes of hunter-gatherers.

Purely based on the number of people on the planet and the degree of technological advancement we've achieved as a species, it's pretty safe to say our globalized civilization is generally more complex than human societies of 15,000 years ago. It's not zero-sum, it's a question of degree.

Where state societies have clear advantages over non-state ones is in their potential and ability to enact coercive measures against their populations and other people in order to maintain existing hierarchies or support the pursuit of elite interests, something that non-state and proto-state societies have historically struggled with. States have become the norm because they almost completely wiped out non-state societies by force, plain and simple.

Oh come on now Kooky. You don't think that's perhaps a slightly biased summary? Can you really not think of reasons why populations of people (not just "the elite") would generally prefer an agrarian, settled life with an established government than a nomadic life? Really.

In this regard, you are correct to question the viability of anarchist societies. I consider it the fundamental paradox of anarchism that, during a time when state societies still exist, anarchist societies would have to adopt coercive features of state societies in order to compete - as they indeed have, historically, such as in Ukraine, Catalonia, or Paris.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that states are the only forces of coercion in the world. You don't think hunter-gatherer societies had any coercion in them? One of the benefits of city-based life was/is stability and protection from coercion afforded by one's government.

Of course not, but the case was never to go back to a nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle, but that the apparent failures of statism and capitalism

And socialism?

might necessitate new models of governance and economics that reflect the changing needs of the majority population and can better realize their rights and necessities than an exploitative system of hierachies that is clearly not up to the task these days.

When you develop one that has any realistic hope of being enacted in the lifetimes of our grandchildren, let me know what it is.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Purely based on the number of people on the planet and the degree of technological advancement we've achieved as a species, it's pretty safe to say our globalized civilization is generally more complex than human societies of 15,000 years ago. It's not zero-sum, it's a question of degree.
Fair enough. I won't belabor the point.


Oh come on now Kooky. You don't think that's perhaps a slightly biased summary? Can you really not think of reasons why populations of people (not just "the elite") would generally prefer an agrarian, settled life with an established government than a nomadic life? Really.
The transition to agricultural life infamously resulted in a general worse quality of life for people across the board, with shorter life expectancies, worse variety of food, and a greater prevalence of disease and illness.

As far as I understand it, the widesprwad adoption of agriculture wasn't one based on preference, but necessity: Climate change had massively decreased the population of animals in the Middle East and other subtropic areas after a period that saw increased settlement and rapid growth among the hunter gatherers, so people had to rely more and more on agriculture to get by. I don't think it is a coincidence that those were the places where the earliest agricultural civilizations sprung up.

The reason why very few groups in history have remained agriculturalists is exactly for the reason you outlined in your previous posts: At some point, it becomes almost impossible to transition from an agricultural society back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle; the realities of the latter cannot sustain the same populations of the former, and the division of labor common to agricultural civilizations cannot be maintained to the same degree in the comparatively smaller groups common to nomads.

As far as I know (though I could be mistaken) the Native American tribes fleeing to the Midwest such as the Lakota were the only example in history of (semi-nomadic, granted) agriculturalists transitioning to a nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle; I assume that this only really worked due to the catastrophic decimation of Native populations during the early arrival of the Europeans.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that states are the only forces of coercion in the world. You don't think hunter-gatherer societies had any coercion in them? One of the benefits of city-based life was/is stability and protection from coercion afforded by one's government.
No, I am operating under the assumption that states are simply better and more efficient in using coercion than non-state societies; an assumption which is backed up by the vast majority of historical encounters between state and non-state societies.

Early governments were based in cities. The city fundamentally exists because it provides a center for governments to operate from. The people of early agricultural societies were not "protected from coercion afforded by their government" by moving into cities. The cities were the centers of the coercive powers of government. The people who lived closest to cities tended to be the ones within easiest reach of the grasp of the state.

Conversely, it was people in terrain less suited to agriculture who were furthest out of reach for early government, and who tended to be the least governed - the hill and forest peoples, and the people roaming the deserts and grasslands at the edges of early agricultural states; people living on marginal land that was of little interest to the early agricultural states, and therefore weren't bothered unless they proved troublesome.

And socialism?
... doesn't exist, does it? Since the breaking of the USSR, socialist policies have been seen as decreasingly viable to any significant degree, and adherents of neo-liberal capitalist ideology have been steadily chipped away at existing social security systems and state industries. The nearest equivalent that still exists in some countries are industries under state control in nationalist-authoritarian regimes like Russia, China, or Saudi Arabia, and those have little interest in giving up state control.

When you develop one that has any realistic hope of being enacted in the lifetimes of our grandchildren, let me know what it is.
Don't worry, our civilization will be consumed in the fires and floods of climate change before the decrepit autocracy in charge of our civilization would even think of ceaseing its grasp over people's lives.

It is not a coincidence that people usually have an easier time imagining the end of the world, than they have imagining a better world beyond the grasp of capitalist authoritarianism.
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The transition to agricultural life infamously resulted in a general worse quality of life for people across the board, with shorter life expectancies, worse variety of food, and a greater prevalence of disease and illness.

I suspect this has to do in large part with people living in closer quarters.

As far as I understand it, the widesprwad adoption of agriculture wasn't one based on preference, but necessity: Climate change had massively decreased the population of animals in the Middle East and other subtropic areas after a period that saw increased settlement and rapid growth among the hunter gatherers, so people had to rely more and more on agriculture to get by. I don't think it is a coincidence that those were the places where the earliest agricultural civilizations sprung up.

This is interesting, I'll read more on this.

The reason why very few groups in history have remained agriculturalists is exactly for the reason you outlined in your previous posts: At some point, it becomes almost impossible to transition from an agricultural society back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle; the realities of the latter cannot sustain the same populations of the former,

This doesnt make sense to me. Human populations increased in size following the transition to city life, they didn't decrease.

Early governments were based in cities. The city fundamentally exists because it provides a center for governments to operate from. The people of early agricultural societies were not "protected from coercion afforded by their government" by moving into cities.

Yes, they were. When you establish a city, you are better able to shield its citizens from outside forces that would seek to conquer or abuse them. The same instincts that prompt hunter-gatherer societies to protect their own people when threatened exist in city-based "tribes" as well. But cities do it better because they have more people and more resources and can divide labor to enable some citizens to be entirely dedicated to law enforcement and defense.

The cities were the centers of the coercive powers of government. The people who lived closest to cities tended to be the ones within easiest reach of the grasp of the state.

When you get a large enough group of people together, as far as I can see there has to be some kind of authority structure and a way of making decisions that every single person isn't going to be happy with all the time. So some degree of coercion is, I think, inevitable. The question is who we want to do the coercing.

... doesn't exist, does it? Since the breaking of the USSR, socialist policies have been seen as decreasingly viable to any significant degree, and adherents of neo-liberal capitalist ideology have been steadily chipped away at existing social security systems and state industries. The nearest equivalent that still exists in some countries are industries under state control in nationalist-authoritarian regimes like Russia, China, or Saudi Arabia, and those have little interest in giving up state control.

Neither capitalism nor socialism exist in "pure" form today (or ever?). Governments fall on a spectrum between the two and routinely use mixed market systems that contain features of both.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yes, they were. When you establish a city, you are better able to shield its citizens from outside forces that would seek to conquer or abuse them. The same instincts that prompt hunter-gatherer societies to protect their own people when threatened exist in city-based "tribes" as well. But cities do it better because they have more people and more resources and can divide labor to enable some citizens to be entirely dedicated to law enforcement and defense.
You're mixing up cause and effect here. A city has to be protected because it can't move. While the nomads could simply move to avoid conflict, an agricultural society has to stay and protect its land, fields and cities.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
You're mixing up cause and effect here. A city has to be protected because it can't move. While the nomads could simply move to avoid conflict, an agricultural society has to stay and protect its land, fields and cities.

I suppose so. But the reason they could simply move to avoid conflict is because they had fewer/less stable resources. :shrug:So actuallly they had to move to live. (Edit to add: and they still had conflict, despite their relative mobility.)

There are no doubt tradeoffs to increased societal structure and stability. I for one would take our current set of evils to life 15,000 years ago. Call me an evil statist. :smilingimp:
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I suppose so. But the reason they could simply move to avoid conflict is because they had fewer/less stable resources. :shrug:So actuallly they had to move to live. (Edit to add: and they still had conflict, despite their relative mobility.)

There are no doubt tradeoffs to increased societal structure and stability. I for one would take our current set of evils to life 15,000 years ago. Call me an evil statist. :smilingimp:
Welcome to the club.
Of course, the sedentary life has its benefits, especially for the elderly who can't move as fast. It is also much more secure, not only from other tribes but from nature itself.
And don't forget booze! To make beer, you have to have grain. (There is actually a hypothesis that alcohol was the reason people became sedentary.)
The question is not if we should go back to a nomadic lifestyle but how much of the change in the socio-political structure was inevitable. Can we reverse some or all of the power structures that resulted from the change?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Welcome to the club.
Of course, the sedentary life has its benefits, especially for the elderly who can't move as fast. It is also much more secure, not only from other tribes but from nature itself.
And don't forget booze! To make beer, you have to have grain. (There is actually a hypothesis that alcohol was the reason people became sedentary.)
The question is not if we should go back to a nomadic lifestyle but how much of the change in the socio-political structure was inevitable. Can we reverse some or all of the power structures that resulted from the change?

Best argument for the need for a state: BEER! :p

I agree, I think that should be the goal. And I think we've already made major strides in that direction. But improvements can always be made. I think actual anarchism is basically a pipe dream though.
 
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