What is Capitalism?

[PureX]

Thank you for opening my eyes against the poison of capitalism, comrade

If only it were so.

 

[an anarchist]

It's "evil" to place any individual or small group of individuals in control of the well being of other individuals, because humans cannot resist abusing that control for their own advantage. The "evil" is the inevitable result of doing that.

I think you are describing the State.

In a modern society everyone has to engage in trade to obtain everything they need to survive. They cannot refuse to buy. This means all those markets become "captive" markets, not free markets.

You can refuse to buy. There are alternatives. You can garden. You can do whatever. It is voluntary. Ones lack of life skills does not mean that they are forced to buy from entrepreneurs. And, well you can blame the state for producing such useless individuals at a mass scale. In a free market society, I'd wager people would be more intelligent and able, so perhaps gardens and personal farming would make a comeback. The current US public education system was made in order to produce factory like workers. Intelligence isn't currently a priority. To say that entrepreneurs are forcing you to buy is ludicrous I think. You can refuse to participate with any business.

 

[PureX]

I think you are describing the State.

You can refuse to buy. There are alternatives. You can garden.

This is just wildly unrealistic in a modern society where the wealthy own all the land, and make all the rules, so that it would be illegal and impossible for most people to build their own shelter, make their own clothes, grow and hunt their own food, protect their own estates, and so on. And anyway, no one wants to live that way. It's very difficult and you don't live long without modern medicine. So claiming that people can refuse to participate in the market is an absurd claim.

You're just trying to 'blame the victims'.

 

[wellwisher]

Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange, nothing more. Why are so many people against it? What is Capitalism to you? To me, it is really simple and not immoral at all. How can voluntary exchange be wrong?

When the Pilgrims first came to America, the colony attempted a Socialist Commune type of economy, where the fruit of everyone's labor was shared and everyone got the same regardless of their effort or skill. The Colonist almost starved that first year, since the young men decided to enjoy the summer, instead of working the fields. Massachusetts is really nice in the summer, especially near the Cape.

The following year, the Governor of the Colony decided to try a capitalist free market approach, where excess production was privatized and could be traded in a free market. That year they had the first Thanksgiving, because of the surplus. Even the young men had incentive to work and would balance work with their need for recreation.

People tend to work harder for themselves and their family than they do for strangers. This is human nature. The owner of any small business always puts in the most hours. Those who work for the owner, do not have the same work incentive. The idea of rewarding extra effort with the profit, is a way to incentivize hard work, like it did the year of first Thanksgiving. If everyone was working for themselves, then each person would also need to find ways to make their products better, cheaper or unique due to the competition for similar products and services. This maximizes resources. This is how nature works.

In nature, all critters need to work to survive. Those who are more efficient in their job of survival become the foundation of natural selection. Nature provides grass for the sheep, but the sheep are expected to walk and feed themselves. Animals can even claim territory. The lion privatizes nature. Capitalism is based on a natural model. In nature, half the critters are not being fed by the other half, except the babies.

With humans, we all have skills, but not all of us have the same skills. This and hard work is where trade comes in. Joe may be good at growing corn, while Susan is the best at sewing cloths. Both are so good at what they do, they always have a surplus. Capitalism is about efficiency of resources, so they will trade the surplus corn, for the surplus clothes, so both can benefit by each other's hard work and skills.

Money is useful to this end, in that neither Joe or Susan may not need all of each others surplus. It would inefficient to trade for more than what you need or will use. So any surplus, after they trade, is exchanged for money, by a resource broker; wholesaler, who sells all types of products to retailers. The retailers display all the surplus, from a wide variety of skills, so people can come to one place and trade their money surplus, for any of these skillful outputs. Since the trading will make profit for the retailer and wholesalers, other retailers open up and competition helps make this, even more efficient due to price shopping.

Government is what screws things up. The US Government for example works with a deficit model meaning it creates less value than it starts with; deficit spending. If you buy into this inefficiency model, you will also be vulnerable to buy into alternate economic systems that are are just as inefficient or worse, like the first year of the Pilgrims. The best government is the one that governs the least since the self employed hard working private citizen is the basis for efficiency.

 

[Stevicus]

I think you are describing the State.

You can refuse to buy. There are alternatives. You can garden. You can do whatever. It is voluntary. Ones lack of life skills does not mean that they are forced to buy from entrepreneurs. And, well you can blame the state for producing such useless individuals at a mass scale. In a free market society, I'd wager people would be more intelligent and able, so perhaps gardens and personal farming would make a comeback. The current US public education system was made in order to produce factory like workers. Intelligence isn't currently a priority. To say that entrepreneurs are forcing you to buy is ludicrous I think. You can refuse to participate with any business.

That might be possible if government implements some kind of universal basic income (UBI) which would give people enough for the basics: Food, housing, utilities, transportation, healthcare, and other necessities of life. As long as no one goes hungry or has to panhandle or sleep on the streets, then society would be a lot better off than it is now. It wouldn't prevent capitalists from doing business, and as you say, it would all be voluntary.

 

[syo]

Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange,

Voluntary? What???

 

[Revoltingest]

Voluntary? What???

I need tires.
I give Discount Tire money, & they give me tires.
They even mount them to my rims, & install them.
Both of us do this voluntarily.
No coercion.

 

[PureX]

When the Pilgrims first came to America, the colony attempted a Socialist Commune type of economy, where the fruit of everyone's labor was shared and everyone got the same regardless of their effort or skill. The Colonist almost starved that first year, since the young men decided to enjoy the summer, instead of working the fields. Massachusetts is really nice in the summer, especially near the Cape.

The following year, the Governor of the Colony decided to try a capitalist free market approach, where excess production was privatized and could be traded in a free market. That year they had the first Thanksgiving, because of the surplus. Even the young men had incentive to work and would balance work with their need for recreation.

People tend to work harder for themselves and their family than they do for strangers. This is human nature. The owner of any small business always puts in the most hours. Those who work for the owner, do not have the same work incentive. The idea of rewarding extra effort with the profit, is a way to incentivize hard work, like it did the year of first Thanksgiving. If everyone was working for themselves, then each person would also need to find ways to make their products better, cheaper or unique due to the competition for similar products and services. This maximizes resources. This is how nature works.

In nature, all critters need to work to survive. Those who are more efficient in their job of survival become the foundation of natural selection. Nature provides grass for the sheep, but the sheep are expected to walk and feed themselves. Animals can even claim territory. The lion privatizes nature. Capitalism is based on a natural model. In nature, half the critters are not being fed by the other half, except the babies.

With humans, we all have skills, but not all of us have the same skills. This and hard work is where trade comes in. Joe may be good at growing corn, while Susan is the best at sewing cloths. Both are so good at what they do, they always have a surplus. Capitalism is about efficiency of resources, so they will trade the surplus corn, for the surplus clothes, so both can benefit by each other's hard work and skills.

Money is useful to this end, in that neither Joe or Susan may not need all of each others surplus. It would inefficient to trade for more than what you need or will use. So any surplus, after they trade, is exchanged for money, by a resource broker; wholesaler, who sells all types of products to retailers. The retailers display all the surplus, from a wide variety of skills, so people can come to one place and trade their money surplus, for any of these skillful outputs. Since the trading will make profit for the retailer and wholesalers, other retailers open up and competition helps make this, even more efficient due to price shopping.

Government is what screws things up. The US Government for example works with a deficit model meaning it creates less value than it starts with; deficit spending. If you buy into this inefficiency model, you will also be vulnerable to buy into alternate economic systems that are are just as inefficient or worse, like the first year of the Pilgrims. The best government is the one that governs the least since the self employed hard working private citizen is the basis for efficiency.

That story is absolutely meaningless to a huge, modern, interdependent economy. And it's very likely untrue, anyway.

Cooperation is far more efficient and effective than competition. That is obvious. But cooperation requires organized consent. Greed and selfishness can't be tolerated precisely because it is so wasteful and counterproductive. And destructive. So the real issue becomes how a society is going to ensure that organized consent. Communism has rarely worked for anyone but very small groups. And even then they tend to be short lived. But capitalism is not the only alternative. There are a whole array of socialist solutions in between.

The main issue remains, however: competition or cooperation. Selfishness or mutual self interest.

 

[Revoltingest]

What is capitalism?

 

[Revoltingest]

Navin dines out at a French restaurant.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I need tires.
I give Discount Tire money, & they give me tires.
They even mount them to my rims, & install them.
Both of us do this voluntarily.
No coercion.

Your model is too simple. But then it works for you, so that is how the world works as you understand it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your model is too simple.

It's not a model.
It's an example of how it works.
Ideally, it corrects misunderstandings.
That wasn't obvious to you? How strange.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's not a model.
It's an example of how it works.
Ideally, it corrects misunderstandings.
That wasn't obvious to you? How strange.

Well, yes. Capitalism is in some sense that, but not just that.

 

[Kfox]

I stopped there.

My view on Capitalism is pretty complex. If I wrote it out, it'd take half a page to a whole page, as well as references and more outside study and sources on the subject than I'm probably willing to do tonight.

But basically, I disagree with you that it's that simple, overall.

Just like anything else, capitalism can be done in a way that causes harm to others. But dishonesty, greed, or harm to others is not a part of capitalism; that is capitalism + greed, dishonesty, etc.

 

[PureX]

Well, yes. Capitalism is in some sense that, but not just that.

THAT, as stated, is an example just commerce, not capitalism. And it completely ignores the fact that he was forced to engage in a commercial trade to get those tires, and he was forced to get those tires because he has to drive to survive in a modern highly inter-dependent culture. So he claims it was all "voluntary" when in fact he had no alternative but to buy those tires from someone. And the people that make and sell those tires all know it. So they are going to demand the highest price they can get away with before too many people simply cannot pay it. Because they arent looking to sell the most tires. They're looking to get as much money for the tires they sell as they can get away with. Because making tires cost them money. If they could sell you a bag of air for as much money as you possess, that would be their ideal trade. Get everything you have and give you nothing in exchange for it. Or as close to that is they can get.

Capitalism rewards that kind of exploitation, and thereby encourages it in every transaction. Commerce becomes a form of warfare. How nice for humanity!

 

[PureX]

Just like anything else, capitalism can be done in a way that causes harm to others. But dishonesty, greed, or harm to others is not a part of capitalism; that is capitalism + greed, dishonesty, etc.

Capitalism gives all control over commercial enterprise to the capital investors . These are people that already have more wealth than he needs to survive, but want more, still, and so want to use (invest) the wealth they have to try and capture more of it. And that's pretty much a definition of greed. People that already have more than they need, wanting even more than they have. And capitalism gives those people complete control over commercial enterprise.

So yeah, capitalism is greed, systematized. It's exploitation being encouraged to serve a bottomless pit of greed, and it's rewarded in a systemic way. And most people these days can't even see the problem in it. Even as homeless camps take over our cities, and dead towns all across the country are being left derelict and falling down around their dwindling, dying populatons.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange, nothing more. Why are so many people against it? What is Capitalism to you? To me, it is really simple and not immoral at all. How can voluntary exchange be wrong?

It isnt wrong.

I think people see the levels of abuse that capitalism brings when it hits extremes, and starts to affect others in negative and harmful ways.

 

[Kfox]

Capitalism gives all control over commercial enterprise to the capital investors .

No it does not. All capitalists must act within the laws of the land

These are people that already have more wealth than he needs to survive, but want more, still, and so want to use (invest) the wealth they have to try and capture more of it. And that's pretty much a definition of greed.

The vast majority of capitalists are not rich, wealthy, or have more than they need. Your problem is you insist on pointing to the small percentage of super rich and crooked capitalists and pretending as if they are typical of them all.

 

[Kfox]

Well, yes. Capitalism is in some sense that, but not just that.

Any system can be abused one way or another, but that doesn't mean the system is crooked, only the people who abuse this way.

 

[PureX]

The vast majority of capitalists are not rich, wealthy, or have more than they need.

You donlt seem to understand what investment capital is.