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What is Christianity support?

As a Christian, which do you support?


  • Total voters
    15

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Such a conclusion, that we are "merely an accidental branch of the animal kingdom—with all its attendant social implications," is NOT a conclusion of science! It's a conclusion of Philosophical Materialism, which is NOT science. I too reject Philosophical Materialism. Do not confuse that with science. Do not deny and reject that, by falsely attempting to deny the science it uses.

Am I possibly clearer to you now?

On the matter of Empathic Civilisation. That is so profound. I don't suppose you know that that's our goal, to build a new world civilisation?

"The most important question facing humanity is this: Can we reach global empathy in time to avoid the collapse of civilization and save the Earth?”" (Empathic Civilisation)

We see the current period in history as a 'crucial juncture' in human history and unless we can move on towards accepting all humanity as our race we will face catastrophes undreamed of as we are trying to apply nationalistic principles to an international world and that will affect the world adversely.

For instance, things like war, poverty and global warming which all threaten our very existence can only be solved 'globally' and the longer we don't unite the worse these things become so we are starting to see anarchy break out and the global financial system collapse because it can't sustain the cost of war and refugees and the threat of another war, and if we don't unite then we can't fix the environment as it will require a global effort to correct.

So Baha'is see that without a world system we are in great danger on many fronts. The video, I copied it and I wish there were somewhere I could get an eBook. You wouldn't know where to buy a digital copy of Ethic Civilisation would you?

You are a very enlightened person in my humble opinion. I know these discussions do get passionate but I'm thinking a lot is my own ignorance as well as some semantics.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes clearer. How do you understand God's role in evolution if any?
I talked about that before with Obeygod. I said to him in post 127, "God is the Source of Creation, and Creation arises from the Source. What you see in the natural world is that arising of form from that Source, and that arising is evolution. Think of it like the unfolding of the flower at the dawn of the day. It doesn't just magically appear fully formed." To answer in light of that, think of evolution as how God creates and creates and creates. The role of God is outpouring.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I talked about that before with Obeygod. I said to him in post 127, "God is the Source of Creation, and Creation arises from the Source. What you see in the natural world is that arising of form from that Source, and that arising is evolution. Think of it like the unfolding of the flower at the dawn of the day. It doesn't just magically appear fully formed." To answer in light of that, think of evolution as how God creates and creates and creates. The role of God is outpouring.

Yes that's how I understand it also. That God uses evolution to create. I never ever believed in anything magical only that God was the Source of Creation and evolution.

I've always agreed that God created through evolution. I've never ever believed anything magically appears.

We don't accept Genesis literally but that God used science to create the universe and man.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes that's how I understand it also. That God uses evolution to create. I never ever believed in anything magical only that God was the Source of Creation and evolution.
There is tendency in some theists when they say God uses evolution to create, they mean that God tinkers and meddles with the process of evolution in a "guided evolution" sense towards some preordained goal, namely that humans would emerge out of the soup of evolution. That evolution is not accidental but completely directed to very specific forms being created, human are purposefully and specifically designed biologically by God through evolution? Would that describe your view of a Theistic Evolution? That's not how I would understand this myself.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
There is tendency in some theists when they say God uses evolution to create, they mean that God tinkers and meddles with the process of evolution in a "guided evolution" sense towards some preordained goal, namely that humans would emerge out of the soup of evolution. That evolution is not accidental but completely directed to very specific forms being created? Would that describe your view of a Theistic Evolution? That's not how I would understand it myself.

What is your understanding of God's role in evolution?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is your understanding of God's role in evolution?
I tried to answer that in post 222. :) Not sure if I can explain it better here, but I'll try...

God Creates. Like the rays of the sun emit from its fire touching everything born of its womb, evolution is Life moving into form and form. Evolution is Spirit moving like the current of river reaching its arms out through the land. It has no specific intended target for its Love, but every single child born of It. Humans are a beautiful and wonderful creation which Spirit moving in nature has bought into being, and God loves this creation as all forms created by Spirit. God Loves, and gives birth, and what arises is a happy, new, novel, creation time and again in each new form birthed from the Heart of God.

Evolution and Spirit are not separate from each other. It is the very expression of God. It is Logos. "In the beginning was the Logos, the Logos was with God, the Logos was God.... All things were created by him, and without him nothing was made that was made." Evolution is the Expression of God, Logos. "And the Logos became flesh..." We are literally God made known in form, through creation through evolution. Evolution is the wind of the Breath of God.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I tried to answer that in post 222. :) Not sure if I can explain it better here, but I'll try...

God Creates. Like the rays of the sun emit from its fire touching everything born of its womb, evolution is Life moving into form and form. Evolution is Spirit moving like the current of river reaching its arms out through the land. It has no specific intended target for its Love, but every single child born of It. Humans are a beautiful and wonderful creation which Spirit moving in nature has bought into being, and God loves this creation as all forms created by Spirit. God Loves, and gives birth, and what arises is a happy, new, novel, creation time and again in each new form birthed from the Heart of God.

Evolution and Spirit are not separate from each other. It is the very expression of God. It is Logos. "In the beginning was the Logos, the Logos was with God, the Logos was God.... All things were created by him, and without him nothing was made that was made." Evolution is the Expression of God, Logos. "And the Logos became flesh..." We are literally God made known in form, through creation through evolution. Evolution is the wind of the Breath of God.

That's a very nice way of describing evolution.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
These are some questions I posted previously that I can't see if you addressed or not so I am posting these questions again.

My understanding is you say man is a higher primate? Yes or no?

That he evolved from the lower kingdoms yes or no?

Is a part of the animal kingdom and is not an independent species yes or no

That his evolution was not planned or directed but just happened naturally biologically. Yes or no

These are your views as I am understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The body animal and the soul divine you said. .......... is this a scientific view if not what part does biology play in this comment? I.e. are our souls part of our biology?

Is our soul also evolved from the animal?

How is the soul born?

Do animals or primates have identical souls to us?

I do read your posts but the lines seem blurred for me here's why. You say 'biologically'. So do we get our reason and intellect and abstract thought from our biology? Are we what we are scientifically, religiously, economically, emotionally, socially all our aspects because or due to our biology and animal instinct? In saying that we are is a higher primate then you are saying that our advancements are all due to our being biologically higher right? Yes or no.

Does everything we are come from us biologically?

I'm looking for common ground here. I'm trying to understand not reject anything. Harmony between science and religion will require efforts from both to try and understand that each are different aspects of one truth not in competition.

Where there is doubt, sometimes we must pass no verdict but learn from each other to help guide each other.

We both can't fly without each other.[/QUOTE]
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These are some questions I posted previously that I can't see if you addressed or not so I am posting these questions again.

My understanding is you say man is a higher primate? Yes or no?
Yes, of course. Bear in mind, we are talking about our biological bodies, remember? I am not say all we are in just our biology. Homo sapiens (let's leave "human being" as a term aside here) are a higher primate form.

That he evolved from the lower kingdoms yes or no?
No. Biologically, he is part of the animal kingdom, along with all other animals.

Is a part of the animal kingdom and is not an independent species yes or no
No. He is an individual species within the animal kingdom. All species of animals are part of the animal kingdom. This is basic science.

That his evolution was not planned or directed but just happened naturally biologically. Yes or no
Evolution is the process. The results are what emerged from it. What emerged could be said to be "planned", in the sense the plan was to adapt and survive. The forms those took were simply what resulted from that "survival plan".

The body animal and the soul divine you said. .......... is this a scientific view if not what part does biology play in this comment? I.e. are our souls part of our biology?
No, it's not a scientific view. Science doesn't deal with things like the "soul". Those are philosophical and religious questions. What part does biology play in this? Wow.... that would require me to type all night here. :) To keep it brief, I am of the view that body, mind, and spirit are all interwoven. A healthy mind leads to a healthy body, and vice versa. Develop the spirit, heal the mind, heal the body, and so forth.

Medical science does recognize the interconnections like this, as biology is a very complex "animal", so to speak. It's not anything as clean and simple as physics, as much as many wish it were! A good meditation practice for instance, can improve things like your immune system by reducing stress, improving one's outlook on life, increasing spiritual awareness, etc. Changing thought patterns can improve energy levels and stress, etc. I personally reject that we are "nothing but a biological machine". We are vastly more complex than that.

Is our soul also evolved from the animal?
I've always had a certain uncertainty about what this "soul" is. It's a very broadly used word in often contradictory ways. I would say this, I believe we are more than just our bodies.

How is the soul born?
Depends on how you define soul. I would say that who we are is Eternal.

Do animals or primates have identical souls to us?
Again, I'm not really sure how that word is being used. How are you defining it? I've heard it used many ways.

I do read your posts but the lines seem blurred for me here's why. You say 'biologically'. So do we get our reason and intellect and abstract thought from our biology?
Hmm... I would say "yes". However, Consciousness itself, Awareness is present all the way down and all the way up evolution. Our cognitive thoughts that our evolved brains are capable of is how that Consciousness manifests itself in our form. When we die, all those intricate pathways that form our memories and habits of thought patterns dissolves with the organ of the brain.

However "we" continue, but not with all my memories and personality with all it quirks and talents do not. They drop off like the clothes we wore during the day. We stand before God "naked", and I suppose you could say that is the "soul", which I suppose at that point I would say is the essence of the individual without all the mess of this world in our brains we spent our days looking at and interacting with as who I thought I was.

Are we what we are scientifically, religiously, economically, emotionally, socially all our aspects because or due to our biology and animal instinct?
Our animal impulse/instinct is of course part of who we are foundationally. We inherited that in our biology. But again, this is difficult to explain in a few sentences. If you were to take that Consciousness I mentioned and look at it not as the result of evolution, not as a product of higher mind at the top of some pyramid of hierarchical growth, but rather put it alongside of evolution, where it exists in the highest most complex evolved form, to the simplest least evolved, that's a better picture to me. The depth of that Consciousness is realized my "fully" with the higher more evolved mind. However, it's the same Consciousness in all.

Things like social and cultural forms are more patterns that emerged in Creation and exist pretty much all the way down in evolution as well, but in lesser degrees of sophistication than our own (hard to explain that briefly). Our forms of social interactions and culture are built upon it what was already there in other forms, but taken to a whole other level in ours. We didn't invent it our of nothing. So in a sense, we took the basic "order", and simply modified it and made it uniquely our own. It's way more complicated that I can begin to explain here.

In saying that we are is a higher primate then you are saying that our advancements are all due to our being biologically higher right? Yes or no.
Sure, yes. I said it before. Other animals made and built tools to do things that were not the object's original function. We do the same thing, turning hunks of metal into cars we ride in. What the difference is we first and foremost have a larger brain that can perform higher cognitive and abstract reasoning than lower primates.

Does everything we are come from us biologically?
No.

I'm looking for common ground here. I'm trying to understand not reject anything. Harmony between science and religion will require efforts from both to try and understand that each are different aspects of one truth not in competition.
I appreciate you making the effort to better understand my thoughts about this. It gets a bit more abstract, but I can try to keep it simple as possible. That's why at this point I only answered the last question with a simple, "no". :) It may take several posts of some length to explain what I think on that question.

Where there is doubt, sometimes we must pass no verdict but learn from each other to help guide each other.

We both can't fly without each other.
Very true. I hope it proves fruitful.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes, of course. Bear in mind, we are talking about our biological bodies, remember? I am not say all we are in just our biology. Homo sapiens (let's leave "human being" as a term aside here) are a higher primate form.


No. Biologically, he is part of the animal kingdom, along with all other animals.


No. He is an individual species within the animal kingdom. All species of animals are part of the animal kingdom. This is basic science.


Evolution is the process. The results are what emerged from it. What emerged could be said to be "planned", in the sense the plan was to adapt and survive. The forms those took were simply what resulted from that "survival plan".


No, it's not a scientific view. Science doesn't deal with things like the "soul". Those are philosophical and religious questions. What part does biology play in this? Wow.... that would require me to type all night here. :) To keep it brief, I am of the view that body, mind, and spirit are all interwoven. A healthy mind leads to a healthy body, and vice versa. Develop the spirit, heal the mind, heal the body, and so forth.

Medical science does recognize the interconnections like this, as biology is a very complex "animal", so to speak. It's not anything as clean and simple as physics, as much as many wish it were! A good meditation practice for instance, can improve things like your immune system by reducing stress, improving one's outlook on life, increasing spiritual awareness, etc. Changing thought patterns can improve energy levels and stress, etc. I personally reject that we are "nothing but a biological machine". We are vastly more complex than that.


I've always had a certain uncertainty about what this "soul" is. It's a very broadly used word in often contradictory ways. I would say this, I believe we are more than just our bodies.


Depends on how you define soul. I would say that who we are is Eternal.


Again, I'm not really sure how that word is being used. How are you defining it? I've heard it used many ways.


Hmm... I would say "yes". However, Consciousness itself, Awareness is present all the way down and all the way up evolution. Our cognitive thoughts that our evolved brains are capable of is how that Consciousness manifests itself in our form. When we die, all those intricate pathways that form our memories and habits of thought patterns dissolves with the organ of the brain.

However "we" continue, but not with all my memories and personality with all it quirks and talents do not. They drop off like the clothes we wore during the day. We stand before God "naked", and I suppose you could say that is the "soul", which I suppose at that point I would say is the essence of the individual without all the mess of this world in our brains we spent our days looking at and interacting with as who I thought I was.


Our animal impulse/instinct is of course part of who we are foundationally. We inherited that in our biology. But again, this is difficult to explain in a few sentences. If you were to take that Consciousness I mentioned and look at it not as the result of evolution, not as a product of higher mind at the top of some pyramid of hierarchical growth, but rather put it alongside of evolution, where it exists in the highest most complex evolved form, to the simplest least evolved, that's a better picture to me. The depth of that Consciousness is realized my "fully" with the higher more evolved mind. However, it's the same Consciousness in all.

Things like social and cultural forms are more patterns that emerged in Creation and exist pretty much all the way down in evolution as well, but in lesser degrees of sophistication than our own (hard to explain that briefly). Our forms of social interactions and culture are built upon it what was already there in other forms, but taken to a whole other level in ours. We didn't invent it our of nothing. So in a sense, we took the basic "order", and simply modified it and made it uniquely our own. It's way more complicated that I can begin to explain here.


Sure, yes. I said it before. Other animals made and built tools to do things that were not the object's original function. We do the same thing, turning hunks of metal into cars we ride in. What the difference is we first and foremost have a larger brain that can perform higher cognitive and abstract reasoning than lower primates.


No.


I appreciate you making the effort to better understand my thoughts about this. It gets a bit more abstract, but I can try to keep it simple as possible. That's why at this point I only answered the last question with a simple, "no". :) It may take several posts of some length to explain what I think on that question.


Very true. I hope it proves fruitful.

So man evolved not from lower life forms? Only animals or primates?

Is it possible man will one day have his own human kingdom?

This is the official definition of the rational soul. We are told It is the power of the soul that brings forth the sciences, inventions and discoveries from the invisible to the visible.

http://www.bahai.org/beliefs/life-spirit/human-soul/rational-soul

It explains how our soul links with our body at conception. I think it's something that is connected to us not a part of us so our minds are not inside our brains but use it to control our bodies like a charioteer uses his chariot.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So man evolved not from lower life forms? Only animals or primates?
Well, I was speaking only of animal life forms, or the animal kingdom. The animal kingdom belong to a larger domain which include plants and fungi which itself evolved from earlier life forms such as bacteria. You can read about that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)

Is it possible man will one day have his own human kingdom?
I don't imagine why that would be necessary at this point as a classification system unless our biology suddenly became something completely outside the animal kingdom, like being a type of mushroom or something, maybe a light being made of photons? :)

This is the official definition of the rational soul. We are told It is the power of the soul that brings forth the sciences, inventions and discoveries from the invisible to the visible.

http://www.bahai.org/beliefs/life-spirit/human-soul/rational-soul

It explains how our soul links with our body at conception. I think it's something that is connected to us not a part of us so our minds are not inside our brains but use it to control our bodies like a charioteer uses his chariot.
That's an interesting take on it. I would say most of this is what I would call our "Interiority". Everything has an interior and an exterior. The "soul" then in most of how this is described in the link would be the interior of us as humans. When I was speaking of Consciousness previously, that would be this.

But I would be cautious to say that thoughts themselves are the soul "thinking". I think it's a little more subtle than that personally. Thought processes themselves are a function of the brain. Where we go with them often, outside our functional uses of the mind, can be matters of what we call "inspiration", and that's where we get into these more transcendent ideals and words such as soul and spirit. I don't want to reduce those to brain function alone, nor do I want to remove from the body either. As I said, it's a lot more subtle than all that and really hard to get into unless we had the time, energy, and "inspiration" to go deep diving like that. :)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Well, I was speaking only of animal life forms, or the animal kingdom. The animal kingdom belong to a larger domain which include plants and fungi which itself evolved from earlier life forms such as bacteria. You can read about that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)


I don't imagine why that would be necessary at this point as a classification system unless our biology suddenly became something completely outside the animal kingdom, like being a type of mushroom or something, maybe a light being made of photons? :)


That's an interesting take on it. I would say most of this is what I would call our "Interiority". Everything has an interior and an exterior. The "soul" then in most of how this is described in the link would be the interior of us as humans. When I was speaking of Consciousness previously, that would be this.

But I would be cautious to say that thoughts themselves are the soul "thinking". I think it's a little more subtle than that personally. Thought processes themselves are a function of the brain. Where we go with them often, outside our functional uses of the mind, can be matters of what we call "inspiration", and that's where we get into these more transcendent ideals and words such as soul and spirit. I don't want to reduce those to brain function alone, nor do I want to remove from the body either. As I said, it's a lot more subtle than all that and really hard to get into unless we had the time, energy, and "inspiration" to go deep diving like that. :)


Yes. When we understand the cerebral cortex more deeply maybe we will understand more about evolution.

"The more perfect the combination, the nobler is the being. The combination of the elements in the body of man is more perfect than the composition of any other being; it is mingled in absolute equilibrium, therefore it is more noble and more perfect."
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes. When we understand the cerebral cortex more deeply maybe we will understand more about evolution.
We are learning quite a lot about the brain these days, such as what goes on in it during spiritual experiences. Which is one reason why I have little doubt that animals have similar experiences, such as NDEs.

"The more perfect the combination, the nobler is the being. The combination of the elements in the body of man is more perfect than the composition of any other being; it is mingled in absolute equilibrium, therefore it is more noble and more perfect."
I have a problem with our typical notions of "perfection", especially when trying to look at us as a species being "better" than other species. Our biology is anything but perfect! We have lots of issues. For instance we were not designed to walk on two feet. We merely adapted the capability to a full time thing because it served us for covering greater distances in search of food, and probably a list of other benefits. But it takes its toll on our bodies, our spines, our ankles, our joints, etc. I think 'highly adaptable and creative problem solving' is a better term than "perfect". And that describes all life forms. Although I would say my idea of "perfect" is a system of flawed parts that come together to produce a life form. That's perfection to me. The crooked tooth in an old woman's smile.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm curious to know in your belief system, how do you deal with the fact that we are not "perfect" critters in the sense of without any flaws? In Christian mythology it assigns this lack of perfection, which includes the fact we die, to the "fall of man" because he "sinned" in the Garden of Eden, thus unleashing Pandora's box of nasties into the world resulting in our bad backs, crooked teeth and our need for glasses to see clearly with. Do you accept that explanation, or have some other take on things? What do you see as "sin"?

I know that's a little off topic, but it does tie into the evolutionary question.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I'm curious to know in your belief system, how do you deal with the fact that we are not "perfect" critters in the sense of without any flaws? In Christian mythology it assigns this lack of perfection, which includes the fact we die, to the "fall of man" because he "sinned" in the Garden of Eden, thus unleashing Pandora's box of nasties into the world resulting in our bad backs, crooked teeth and our need for glasses to see clearly with. Do you accept that explanation, or have some other take on things? What do you see as "sin"?

I know that's a little off topic, but it does tie into the evolutionary question.

We believe that man was born good and without sin. The story about Adam and Eve we understand it as a story telling us that we were originally born as spiritual beings but that by disobeying God through our own choice, we fell into materialism like the current age.

The moral of the story is that by obedience to God we can have a world as wonderful as a Garden of Eden but if we choose to disobey him we will fall into materialism and its consequences like war, poverty and suffering.

1 Cor:15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The meaning of this verse as we understand it is if we follow Adam's disobedience we shall surely die spiritually but Christ has the power to give us spiritual life if we have become 'fallen' (materialistic or spiritually dead)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We believe that man was born good and without sin. The story about Adam and Eve we understand it as a story telling us that we were originally born as spiritual beings but that by disobeying God through our own choice, we fell into materialism like the current age.
Sorry. I hadn't seen you had replied to this. The conversation continues! ;)

When you are speaking of materialism in this reply what are you meaning? Previously when we talked of materialism in the scientific context it has a specific meaning, that the focus is largely on the mechanics of the material machine. Reductionism on the other hand is where both a process to look at the machine, and a philosophy which says nothing exists that is non-material, that nothing outside matter is real. The latter is not a conclusion of science, as we discussed. So materialism in this sense is a philosophy.

Materialism can also mean trying to find happiness through material means, such as consumerism in capitalistic societies. So, when you say Adam and Eve "fell into materialism like the current age," what do you mean? Are you saying they became consumerists, or philosophical materialists saying nothing spiritual is real? Or something else?

The moral of the story is that by obedience to God we can have a world as wonderful as a Garden of Eden but if we choose to disobey him we will fall into materialism and its consequences like war, poverty and suffering.
Again, I'll need some clarification of what you mean by materialism in this context.

I would say my understanding of the Garden of Eden myth is of course metaphorical. I think we both tend to agree with that. To me it has some depth of meaning within its story, though I don't personally take it as a "divine revelation". I would say the original story of the Enuma Elish, which the Genesis myth is a rewrite of, that any of our creation myths touch on a sense of our "humanness" and our state of "separateness" from each other, and from ourselves and the world we live it. They touch upon very human existential questions, and it's those questions which are what make us distinct from the other animal species, something which your religion takes to a different level of extreme in its own myths about evolution which we've been discussing these past several weeks or so.

In my way of harmonizing science and religion in this case, I accept the basic "truths" in the story as it is wrapped in all sorts of metaphors and symbolisms, but knowing what we know now about how we are the result of evolutionary processes and not magical "poofing" into existence from nothing, the understanding of the myth of the Garden of Eden takes on a new meaning. The "eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and our subsequent realization of "sin", or being less that divine in our "fallen state", is simply our minds awakening to a self-reflexive realization, which leads to us differentiating ourselves from others, i.e., "this is me, this is not me". That process of differentiation is what we see in infants becoming young children, becoming older children, becoming teens, becoming adults. It's a process of realizing our separateness, and with that comes our existential 'angst'.

So what really happened historically in our species was a 'waking up' in our higher minds where we began to see ourselves differently from everything else. We lost our connection to the world, and as a result, we lost connection with our own selves in the world. The "sin" is to be disconnected from "God", or all that is. To be with God, is to regain that sense of connection, that "paradise lost". So the myth of the Garden is really us not being "thrown out" of paradise, but us choosing to get up on two feet instead of all fours, and walk out of it into the world to try to find who and what we are! We literally are animals who were part of the eco-system, operating ecologically, whose minds became so self-aware that we chose to leave and go find ourselves in looking beyond the forest primeval. It literally is the story of mankind waking up out of the animal kingdom in his pursuit to know himself and the God who created him.

Spend some time on that last paragraph and try to unpack it. There is a lot there.

1 Cor:15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The meaning of this verse as we understand it is if we follow Adam's disobedience we shall surely die spiritually but Christ has the power to give us spiritual life if we have become 'fallen' (materialistic or spiritually dead)
In a basic sense I agree, but in this way. Adam symbolizes our choosing to 'grow up' and know God, awakening from our slumbering ignorance in the forest primeval. Adam is a literal hero in this way, as well as 'cursing' us with all the agonies that are the price of such self-awareness! It's double edged sword that way. But the way back is "barred" as the myth states. We have no choice but to go forward to completion. Christ symbolizes the forward path, the Light at the end of our way from our awakening from our animal natures, to our divine natures. Adam represents our past, and Christ represents our future.

I'll let you digest that a bit, and please take your time with it before you respond. I can explain a lot more in detail, but I'll let you process this first.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Windwalker. You're back!!! Did you get the PM I sent you. A Baha'i has a Book in pre publication about the biology of Evolution and he wants you to pass some feedback, criticism of it. I can send it by email if I have your email address. There's a lot of juicy stuff in there too.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Windwalker. You're back!!! Did you get the PM I sent you. A Baha'i has a Book in pre publication about the biology of Evolution and he wants you to pass some feedback, criticism of it. I can send it by email if I have your email address. There's a lot of juicy stuff in there too.
Yes, I'll get back around to that later. I'm heading out to shoot some photography today. One of my many artistic hobbies. :)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Sorry. I hadn't seen you had replied to this. The conversation continues! ;)

When you are speaking of materialism in this reply what are you meaning? Previously when we talked of materialism in the scientific context it has a specific meaning, that the focus is largely on the mechanics of the material machine. Reductionism on the other hand is where both a process to look at the machine, and a philosophy which says nothing exists that is non-material, that nothing outside matter is real. The latter is not a conclusion of science, as we discussed. So materialism in this sense is a philosophy.

Materialism can also mean trying to find happiness through material means, such as consumerism in capitalistic societies. So, when you say Adam and Eve "fell into materialism like the current age," what do you mean? Are you saying they became consumerists, or philosophical materialists saying nothing spiritual is real? Or something else?


Again, I'll need some clarification of what you mean by materialism in this context.

I would say my understanding of the Garden of Eden myth is of course metaphorical. I think we both tend to agree with that. To me it has some depth of meaning within its story, though I don't personally take it as a "divine revelation". I would say the original story of the Enuma Elish, which the Genesis myth is a rewrite of, that any of our creation myths touch on a sense of our "humanness" and our state of "separateness" from each other, and from ourselves and the world we live it. They touch upon very human existential questions, and it's those questions which are what make us distinct from the other animal species, something which your religion takes to a different level of extreme in its own myths about evolution which we've been discussing these past several weeks or so.

In my way of harmonizing science and religion in this case, I accept the basic "truths" in the story as it is wrapped in all sorts of metaphors and symbolisms, but knowing what we know now about how we are the result of evolutionary processes and not magical "poofing" into existence from nothing, the understanding of the myth of the Garden of Eden takes on a new meaning. The "eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and our subsequent realization of "sin", or being less that divine in our "fallen state", is simply our minds awakening to a self-reflexive realization, which leads to us differentiating ourselves from others, i.e., "this is me, this is not me". That process of differentiation is what we see in infants becoming young children, becoming older children, becoming teens, becoming adults. It's a process of realizing our separateness, and with that comes our existential 'angst'.

So what really happened historically in our species was a 'waking up' in our higher minds where we began to see ourselves differently from everything else. We lost our connection to the world, and as a result, we lost connection with our own selves in the world. The "sin" is to be disconnected from "God", or all that is. To be with God, is to regain that sense of connection, that "paradise lost". So the myth of the Garden is really us not being "thrown out" of paradise, but us choosing to get up on two feet instead of all fours, and walk out of it into the world to try to find who and what we are! We literally are animals who were part of the eco-system, operating ecologically, whose minds became so self-aware that we chose to leave and go find ourselves in looking beyond the forest primeval. It literally is the story of mankind waking up out of the animal kingdom in his pursuit to know himself and the God who created him.

Spend some time on that last paragraph and try to unpack it. There is a lot there.


In a basic sense I agree, but in this way. Adam symbolizes our choosing to 'grow up' and know God, awakening from our slumbering ignorance in the forest primeval. Adam is a literal hero in this way, as well as 'cursing' us with all the agonies that are the price of such self-awareness! It's double edged sword that way. But the way back is "barred" as the myth states. We have no choice but to go forward to completion. Christ symbolizes the forward path, the Light at the end of our way from our awakening from our animal natures, to our divine natures. Adam represents our past, and Christ represents our future.

I'll let you digest that a bit, and please take your time with it before you respond. I can explain a lot more in detail, but I'll let you process this first.

By materialism I meant by disobedience to God as man is today, he falls into the hell of worshipping the self.
 
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