1 Cor. 6:18-20
18. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
19. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20. For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
I just notice that your understanding of the scripture is literal and incomplete--to understand the right context. This scripture does not have to do with meditation, but to offer your body in purity.
It's amusing to hear someone say I take scripture too literally.
You misunderstand the context why I was quoting this passage. I was quoting it because you tried to say that when Paul says "Christ lives in me", is not the same thing as saying "Christ in me" (which in reality it is). I cited this verse because it explicitly says "the Holy Spirit who is in you". Christ in you, Holy Spirit in you, same thing. I was not citing the passage as speaking about meditation. I later mentioned that what meditation does is help allow you to open to the Spirit which is within you, but this passage's emphasis is about purification.
That too can and does tie into meditation practice, to be sure, but I wasn't citing the verse to say its teaching about meditation directly. It was to make my point "in you" is a valid understanding. It's one I think you still grapple with. I do take that literally: "In you". The best way to understand it I feel is a certain "dual citizenship", or "dual nature". Which is why meditation practice is important towards the renewing of the mind, to "let this mind which was in Christ Jesus be in you.".
Rom.12:1-2
1. I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
If you wish to talk about the presenting of the body as a living sacrifice, that's fine. It wasn't my point in citing the passage however. I'll just briefly cite that the rest of that passage refers to what I have talking about what occurs through meditation practice, the "renewing of your mind". The whole person is involved; body, mind, and soul. We need to take care of our bodies, our minds, our soul, and our spirit. All of them are interconnected. If you just focus on the body, living a physically healthy life, not polluting and abusing it, that is good as it helps keep the mind healthy, but it is not developing the mind. If you keep the body and mind healthy, that is good, but it doesn't focus on developing a knowledge and awareness of the soul. But if you are on such a path that is working on developing the spiritual path which directly affects the soul, in order to do so you also need to take care of the body; eating healthy, exercise, abstain from forms of self-abuse, self-neglect, and so forth, as well as take care of the mind by abstaining from feeding it garbage and allowing it to "think on good things", "Set you mind on the things above," and so forth. If you fail to do those, it will negatively impact your spiritual path.
I'll add one other thing to this, if you do develop the spiritual on top of those, that will dramatically affect both the body and the mind from a "top-down" influence. Without that 'top down' influence, the effort at the spiritual becomes and effort of the body or the mind (ego) trying to apprehend God. The mind cannot truly serve God, without the influence of Spirit upon it. Spiritual development is very direct, and meditation practice is an exercise quite specifically geared to exercise "soul" muscles, so to speak. Whereas study is to develop the mind, and kinesthetic motion the body. Keeping the mind and the body pure, are
prerequisites for spiritual practice, but they in themselves are NOT spiritual practice. I think this is where you are mistaken in believing that that is, by simply abstaining from self-indulgence and self-abuse, or simply be reading scripture, that is all that is needed. Those that see these as the path in themselves, tend to become
legalists, substituting religious practices for actual spiritual awakening.
This is consistent with Rom. 12:1-2, we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, this becomes an act of worshiping God.
Only if actual worship is involved.
It's the worship "in spirit and in Truth", that meditation is about. It is not just going to the temple and offering your body, but "in spirit", that is where the rubber meets the road. It does not say worship in body, alone.
Therefore, I believe that when Paul say Christ lives in him, means he is living as Christ-like and used his body to glorify God. It does not imply any supernatural indication in meditation.
Well yes, we use our bodies, for sure. "Christ in you", means in your body, as well as your mind, your heart, and your soul. Here is the key difference and hopefully this will help you understanding. One is mimicking, the other is
being. Do you see the difference between the two? A child can act very maturely, imitate what an adult does, but they are not actually mature. They are acting maturely. Inside however, they are still immature children. They are only mature, from the inside, when they have grown through life experience and develop into mature adults.
Spiritual growth does happen naturally over time, moving someone who sees "follow the rules", imitating Christ in behaviors as "being Christian", into a realization that it is more about the spirit and nature of the heart in its actions that is "Christ-like". It moves from external imitation, to internal realization. Those that only have external imitation, who emphasize that, tend to be stuck spiritually. The external becomes a substitute for spiritual awakening, which is far more difficult to move into than simply conforming to the law and calling it "justified in Christ", or something. What meditation practice does, is it dramatically
accelerates that otherwise natural internal growth.
If someone is on a path towards Unity with God, if they are so driven to Unite spiritually with the Divine, there is no other exercise to develop that faster than a contemplative practice. It is like going to college where you become directly immersed in Spirit. It's like learning another language which is accelerated through saturation or immersion in the use of the language itself. But again to emphasize, do not mistake mere conformity to external rules with internal reality. It's not the same thing at all. God looks at the heart, not how clean your clothes are.
Just to add to it, the reality is “an evil tree produce evil fruit.” The evil fruit corrupts human without knowing that they are evil. For the evil one camouflaged as an angel of light (2 Cor.11:14). The thing is how would you detect as practitioner of contemplative Christianity—that there is no deception behind it?
You are conflating what the mind thinks, with the fruits of the spirit. The proof is in the fruit, not in whether or not how they believe about God fits with your way of thinking about it. Too often, in fact all the time, people assume that what they believe is right and therefore what everyone who thinks differently about the same thing from the way they do, are "deceived", following the evil one camouflaged as an angel of light, etc.
How does someone know? By being spiritually aware. "My sheep hear my voice and they know me". That's how. But this is not possible when one only uses the mind to try to see truth. You have to hear with spirit, and in order to hear with spirit, you have to become spiritually awake, spiritually self-aware. It's that simple. And that happens by developing that type of awareness. And the most effective path to that, is a deep contemplative practice, where one actually engages Spirit much more actively, directly.
mystical
adj
1. (Alternative Belief Systems) relating to or characteristic of mysticism
2. (Theology)
Christianity having a divine or sacred significance that surpasses natural human apprehension
3. (Alternative Belief Systems) having occult or metaphysical significance, nature, or force
4. a less common word for
mysterious (freedictionary)
For us, the word mystical is not used for evangelical Christianity. We don’t considered ourselves as mystical.
Speak for yourself.
That's too bad, actually. As the entire "mystery of God in Christ" is in fact a
mystical truth. I'm curious what your source for these "definitions" above is? It is clearly not an unbiased, or informed, understanding of what the word actually means. In fact, I have a feeling he doesn't really understand it itself, but is someone speaking out of their own ignorance to these matters. But if you want to use this rather skewed definition list above, then look at number 2. That's closer to the reality of it, but it is not a "theology". A theology is a mental model of what really amounts to a type of metaphysical point of view. What mysticism actually is, is as I have been describing it, a very direct and immediate
communion of mind and spirit with the Divine. Not all this silliness from this person's point of view.
I'll accept these definitions instead:
Mysticism
noun
- 1.
belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
Mystic
noun
- 1.
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.
Mystical
adjective
- 1.
of or relating to mystics or religious mysticism.
"the mystical experience"
Now, those are accurate. When I refer to these terms, please use these common definitions that I accept, along with all other mystics. I don't mean anything close to what your source made up himself.
Actually, when we mean “by their fruits you shall know them” by their practices which is not in line with the scripture, we can assure detection immediately.
Where is this stated in scripture? No, it is behaviors that issue forth from the heart that is what the fruits of the Spirit are. It lists them in Galatians 5:22-23,
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
These are not practices, these are not doctrinal beliefs or tenets of faith one mentally holds. You're response reflects the legalistic understanding of what faith means, which is about conformity to external standards. None of the above, straight from the Bible, speak of that. How do you bear the fruit of love, joy, peace, etc, except through a transformed heart, mind, spirit, and soul? These are the fruits of an
internal Source. The Spirit is "in you", and from "in you", issues forth these fruits. You judge by the actions and behaviors that show these types of fruits. "In line with scripture", is a matter of what you believe, where or not they agree with your doctrines and your beliefs. What is "in line with scripture", is what is listed above. "Love is the fulfilling of the law", says Paul. It comes from Spirit within. That is how you judge, not with what you believe to be true, which is
wholly dependent on your own spiritual depth and maturity.
The other way of what you are telling is like this: I will seek God with the things I would like to gain supernatural experiences like I can see and feel like God.
This does not reflect the reality of what either I or other legitimate mystics are doing. I think you have not gleaned from what I have been saying the actual intent is. Nowhere have I said the goal is to "gain supernatural experiences". That is not the goal. The goal is to "gain Christ". If you are seeking for self-gain, then you are focused on yourself, not Christ. I explicitly explained this in depth in previous posts. If you would like I could cite all the many instances, but it was primarily addressed when we were discussing the paradoxical meaning of "seek and you shall find". Do you recall now?
I will consciously seek higher level of spirituality to attain the level of godliness to be like God who is powerful. Therefore I can discern and become like God who is all knowing. This is seeking an experience first before the Scripture.
Again, this is a fictional person that those who you seem to cite have imagined of us. That not only ignores what I have explicitly stated, as well as
@Vouthon addressed, but it mischaracterizes and maligns us. It is false. I can't make that clearer. It has nothing to do with seeking power. In fact, it is 100% the exact opposite. It is about surrendering all your power to God. And through that, then we find God alive in us. Prior to that, it's frankly about your ego, seeking your salvation, your happiness, your afterlife guarantee, and all that. Now those, are seeking for power, which not what the mystical experience or contemplative path is about. It is about putting on the mind of Christ, though abandoning all self-seeking.
I don’t think so. Reading the Bible is not in the head knowledge only. I do believe that when we read the Bible, we start to have faith in Him knowing what God want for us. What we should do and what should not do.
You said you thought there should be balance, saying we should read the Bible and not rely on experience. I agreed, but pointed out that it goes the other way around as well, that that balance needs to include experience. What you are at this point unaware of is that though, yes, you may indeed have a spiritual opening that occurs reading the Bible, that is what I would call a taste, an
invitation to communion. There is something substantially different as a matter of degrees.
To give an analogy, imagine reading about the Ocean, having never been to the Ocean. One's thoughts can transport them through the imagination to what this imagined enormity and its attributes is like, relating to one's own current personal experiences with what sound similar. The imagination fills in the rest, inspiring the mind and the heart in its imagination. Then there living near the Ocean, where occasional the smell comes to you on the random breeze. You can feel its moisture on the skin when the wind is right. You feel its nearness to you. This is of course a matter of degrees deeper than the one who lives their lives at a much greater distance, only reading about the Ocean and feeling its beauty through the wings of imagination, inspiring themselves through hope.
And then you have those who stand in the Ocean, close their eyes, and fall backward into the Ocean, immersed with their entire being it its infinite wetness. That is a matter of degrees beyond those who read about it and feel inspired, or those who occasional feel its actual nearness on the random breeze. The mystical experience and practice is actually going to the Ocean and becoming directly immersed in it, swimming in its expansive depth. Nothing informs the mind, the body, and the soul like directly experiencing this Ocean by direct immersion with it. It is as I said, a matter of degrees. And the knowledge imparted by the latter is not attainable any other way.
The Bible as the Word of God mentioned the following :
Heb. 4:12
12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
"Living" being the operative word here. I see the Word of God as living, not static words on a page that you interpret with the mind. The Word, is Logos, as I explained earlier. Add to this the focus on the "intentions of the heart". It is all about about internal knowledge. And that is a spiritual awareness. And that is developed by going within, communing with Spirit which is "in you". It's not about you reading something from the Bible and passing judgment on others. That is the exact opposite of its meaning and intention.
Then, how would you know that is the bad fruit that bears? What is your point of reference?
Anything that is opposite of peace, joy, love, patience, compassion, etc, such as judging your brother using the Bible as a weapon, self-righteousness, divisiveness, resentment, jealousy, and so forth. In other words, the works of the flesh. That's all pretty self-evident in the Bible.
Do you believe that all is God including you is God? and the belief that all is one and one is all?
That's more a strict pantheistic view based on the way you described it. I don't think of God in those terms.
So, you believe in Zen Buddhism? this is what Willigis Jagger trained for.
What does "believe in Zen Buddhism" mean? I don't think any Zen Buddhist would describe themselves as "believing in" it, as if it was a matter of believing in a deity. Do I see there is some truth in what Zen Buddhism teaches? Sure. I believe there is truth in all perspectives. There is also somethings I don't agree with, but if I "believed in it" in any sense what you may be referring to, I would be a Zen Buddhist then, which would mean I exclusively practice its practices and follow the teachings of its linage.
I'm not exactly sure why you seem to think Zen Buddhism is "evil" or something. I can't exactly fathom that. But then you do appear to be misinformed about a lot of these things. What do imagine makes them "evil"?
BTW, could you please not use colored texts? It makes it very difficult responding as I have to switch from rich text to BB Code to edit out all the color flags as it makes all my responses purple!
There really no benefit making the words in color. Simply bolding and italics work just fine to emphasize something. Thanks.
