What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Yoshua]

There you go. My analogy worked for you. The Bible does not specify sexual practices for the marriage bed. The measure of its validity is its effectiveness in bringing closeness and intimacy to the couple, not if it follows some "owner's manual" of your sexual organs contained in some holy book somewhere. It is what you do with your body that bring either goodness and health, or harm and dysfunction. The outcome of the practice is the measure of its validity, or not.

And so it is also with meditation practices, in all their many shapes and forms, techniques and positions, routines and schedules, etc. No detailed practice of prayer is laid out in the NT, and like making love with your spouse, God leaves it up to us to "fulfill his word", by doing things that result in goodness and health, growth and the realizing of the fruits of the Spirit in our lives. If what we are doing, does that, then we are pleasing God. Absolutely! We know we are pleasing God when he draws nigh unto us in these things. What does scripture teach? "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you"

Other faiths have their own way, methods and technique of meditation practice. Yes, I agree with you. If you can reconcile to me that other faiths (Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, TM, Taoism, Shintoism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Satanism, Scientology, Bahai Faith, & Confucianism) is projecting their meditation to Jesus Christ, I would certainly believe you right away, and no question at all.

If your sense of analogy or basis is ‘there is no specified method or technique detailed in the Bible’ to continue and do others faith practices, why do such thing?

It backfires your analogy. Now, can you define who God you are referring in "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you"? Who’s God is that? Please explain

How do I know my meditation practices are right for me? How do I know they are in fact "pleasing to God"? The result. I draw nigh to God, and God draws nigh to me. My life becomes filled with a heart of abundance, and the fruits of the Spirit flow from me. The fact that God meets me in meditation, speaks quite substantially to the fact it is pleasing to God. And the result is in fact substantiated by scripture, "By their fruit you shall know them".

You asked “How do I know my meditation practices are right for me?”

My answer to this is to apply your familiar verse that you have quoted before. Psalm 119:105. Thy word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my path.

You asked “How do I know they are in fact "pleasing to God?”

Pleasing God is doing His will, and not pleasing man.

1 Thess. 2:4
4. but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts.

Gal. 1:10
10. For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

We must learn what is pleasing to Him. Before we shifted or do some practices, we look for goodness, righteousness and truth. Did Jesus and Paul told us to embrace all practices from other faiths, or did they taught us to embrace the light according to the gospel or teachings? Of course, those are instruction that was received from Paul and Jesus.

Eph. 5:8-10
8. for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
9. (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10. trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.

1 Thess 4:1
1. Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you may excel still more.

We offer our body as living sacrifice and acceptable to God. The Scripture clearly say that it is our spiritual act of worship. To worship whom? There is no other God that was cited in the Bible—as the God who sent His own Son Jesus Christ.

Rom. 12:1-2
1. I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Col. 1:9-10
9. For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

10. so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Those are submission and not laying down your will only. His will be done and not yours. You cannot bear the right fruit without submission to Christ.

Bearing fruit here is not the fruit that was originated from other beliefs or faiths. They speak fruit in accordance with Christian doctrine. We are speaking Christianity here, and not other beliefs. It says to those who bear fruit is the evidence that they are Christ’s disciple, and not any other faith’s disciples.

John 15:8
8. "By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

So your spiritual technique is beating your body? How has that been working for you? Not too well, I'll bet. BTW, where is THAT taught in scripture as a prayer technique? Do you use your fists, cords, forks, hot lighters against your skin, etc?

Not only in prayer, but it covers the whole spirituality. Do you like the beating of the body technique? You make me laugh. Actually, those are Paul’s word that was emphasized like an athlete to refer—as follower of Christ. I used that word as “spiritual discipline,” avoiding things that entangle your faith by focusing on the path that Christ is leading us.

1 Cor. 9:27
but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. (WEB)

No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (NIV)

Some translation used the word “discipline” as disciplining the body to be fit and win the race of righteousness for heavenly reward.

1 Cor. 1:24-27
24. In a race, everyone runs but only one person gets first prize. So run your race to win.
25. To win the contest you must deny yourselves many things that would keep you from doing your best. An athlete goes to all this trouble just to win a blue ribbon or a silver cup, but we do it for a heavenly reward that never disappears.
26. So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around.
27. Like an athlete I punish my body, treating it roughly, training it to do what it should, not what it wants to. Otherwise I fear that after enlisting others for the race, I myself might be declared unfit and ordered to stand aside.(LVB)

I would argue you in fact do get lost when you rely on just reading the Bible without the Spirit within you, actively, consciousness, guiding your very thought processes that are doing the reading! That's what you seem to clearly lack, and why you end up saying things that deny the work of Spirit in the lives of others because you can't seem to see them on the pages of the Bible you are reading with the carnal mind, the mind of flesh, not yet able to eat "solid food" of Spirit.

Without the Holy Spirit? How come that I felt the Holy Spirit working in my life and guiding me from understanding of the Scripture?

You may have a different view on how the work of the Spirit in you. It is not in accordance to what Jesus & Paul had said about the work of the Holy Spirit.

Do you know what the Spirit of God can do? The following are the Holy Spirit’s function as our teacher.

John 14:26
26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

1.) The Holy Spirit brings to remembrance the words of Christ.
2.) He will teach us all things.
3.) He shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
4.) He shall glorify Christ.
5.) The Holy Spirit reveals to us the deep things of God which are hidden from and are foolishness to the natural man. 1 Cor. 2:10.

Where is now carnal here? if we are not the one who sought the Spirit of God; the Spirit of God is the one who came to us through Jesus Christ so we might receive it, and be filled. I followed what Jesus and Paul says. It shows that your way of entertaining the Spirit of God is not the same as what Jesus and Paul told us. So who is that spirit if it is not the Spirit of God? Hope you get my point.

Submit? What does that mean? I prefer the word "fulfill". That's the one Jesus used. I fulfill what Jesus taught, by living a life filled with Spirit. If you can do that by standing on your head 3 hours a day, then my response to you would be, "Welcome brother!". But the fact that you want everyone to look like you and deny them what works for them because it doesn't fit how YOU do things, well, the proper response to you should be, "I rebuke you. I admonish you to look within to what the Spirit teaches."

Did you submit to the government authorities as paying taxes? That is what I mean when it comes to submission to His word. To follow God’s word. If you can prove to me that the disciples and follower of Jesus does not submit to His words instead to fulfill, then I will believe you.

When Jesus mentioned about fulfillment, He fulfill the prophecy, and the things to come as the Father sent Him to fulfill things that should happen for the hope of salvation.

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?... A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.... Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." ~Mt. 7:16

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" ~Ga. 5:22-23

Right there. And back we are to page one of this "debate". Please note, "against such things there is no law". Why are you trying to say there is a law against a practice that helps someone nurture these in their lives???? Again, what is wrong with you? Who exactly are you serving?

I believed that you did not understand exegetically what the Scripture says about the law. You misinterpreted me, I did not prohibit you to freely practicing your rights spiritually, but what I’m telling you—is the prohibition against the word of God. Again, as I said (above), you cannot generalized the fruit of the Spirit to all major/minor religion or beliefs because when Paul told about its fruit, he is actually saying that fruits belongs to the Holy Spirit’s working. This is the Holy Spirit that operates in the life of a follower in Christ. (Eph. 2:8-9) Why you should pick up the Holy Spirit of God then attached it unknowingly with your belief-- linked, connected and practiced by Buddhist, Hindus, and New Age?

The Spirit of God operates to a person who believe, receive, commit, and submit to God. Now, if a person is truly submitted to God, he should consistently follow his word.

Thanks

 

[InChrist]

Baloney. The bible is neither "God-breathed" nor "God's written word."

What about those who didn't -- and don't? Does God arbitrarily "kick them out of the family?" That's simply incongruent with teachings such as the Prodigal.

Not all Jews, though. What of the others?

I stand on the belief that the Bible is the God's written word to humanity.

The true father in the parable of the Prodigal son is forgiving and certainly does not kick the wayward son out of the family. On the contrary, it is the son who leaves his father. So it is with everyone of us, Jews included. We have all left to go after our own sinful passions of the flesh, leaving our loving Father and instead choosing another father who indulges our sinful nature, the devil. (John 8:44). Yet, as the parable reveals, the loving Father waits for all to realize their waywardness and return. Thus so much emphasis in the scriptures to repent, turn from your sin and come to the Savior.

 

[Yoshua]

Goodness me! I actually went into the models of Spiral Dynamics because I knew Sojourner would be able to follow them. I didn't expect you would be able to grasp it much, if at all, but I didn't realize how little you would. This response is utterly ridiculous. But, thanks for trying.

Actually, I got your point and understand your message. I just show you how I may apply your Spiral Dynamics in relation to my faith. Those are totally a relative view, and differed a lot.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No, the only thing I will learn is how ignorance and a lack of education result in the spread of the sort of misinformation you are parrotting from these unqualified "whoevers" lurking out on the Internet with their blogs. Do you believe anything because it is in writing, or only those who agree with your beliefs, and since they do they become "authorities" to you?

Of course, I don’t just listen to other what they are saying. I scrutinize and check it with the Scripture. Same side with you, when I ask you about authors, teacher or personalities, you give me the names whom you favored with.

He said the practice is New Age and then cited a book from the 14th century to prove it! New Age did not start in the 14th century, but the 1970s. The Cloud of Unknowing is NOT a "New Age" book!

Come on. Windwalker, let us not argue about a book. There are books that expose the New Age teachings, and there are books that is solely New Age. I have a book about cosmic Christ by Matthew Fox and others, and I also have books about all New Age movement and biblical worldview.

If I may quote you biblically, the New Age already started since Adam and Eve. This is not in concept only but it includes all facets of deception.

Gen. 3:4-5
4. And the serpent said to the woman, "You surely shall not die!
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

New Age believed that God is all, all is God and all is one. If All is God and If all is one, including God, then one must conclude that all is God. It is pantheist in nature and belief.

The serpent is the deceiver ever since, his desire is to be like God.

So, if a Christian adopts a Buddhist practice, that makes them New Age? How? Because you demonize New Age and call anything you don't like "New Age"? Yes, that is clear, actually.

Yes, exactly. As Wikipedia clearly illustrated who are the New Age. What makes them New Age, it is because of their same connection of practices and principles which is contrary to Christian principles and teachings. I show you evidences and proof.

Ok. I was fond of New Age music before by Yanni. I bought with me all his CD’s, played it loudly so my neighbor will also hear its wonderful music. But in the midst of my spiritual walk, I discovered that he is playing the New Age music. I check it out, and heard what he is uttering in the concert live CD. He said “All is One.” I also do research and really found out who he is. During that time, I was so disappointed, there is a struggle between my flesh and the spirit (of who will I follow). Is it to follow God or to follow my own desire since I know already the truth? If I continue my desire to continue absorb into my mind that music, would I glorify God or not? This is just an example of my experience, same as I mentioned to you about my Aikido and Tai-chi, principle of Yin & Yang. I do practiced them before.

Your profound ignorance is on display again. Centering Prayer is not a mantra meditation. They do not sit and chant for 30 minutes straight or longer. It is not even a concentrative form of meditation, staring at a candle flame for an hour. You are conflating many different types of meditation practices as all the same thing, and they are not.

If you are going to say the practice is bad, you should at least know what they are.

I know about Centering. I just include it since this also counted as man-made method. I have the process in my list here on how to do it step by step. For the sake of discussion, I include it.

What is this garbage, "and similar with New Age". Get over this obsession of yours with New Age. What New Age does is borrow from Buddhist, Hindu, etc. So if Christianity has either their own unique forms that are similar to Buddhists or Hindus, that does not make them "similar to New Age". New Age is not a source of authority! It's not a tradition! It has no teachings of its own! It's not something Christians "borrow from", because New Age itself borrows from the traditions - even from the Christian tradition! So stop it with your nonsense already.

BTW, "Zen" is Buddhism. It's not a separate religion. Do you not know that?

I’m not thinking about the New Age just now. I already think it widely, study it and make a layout for the New Age connecting links to other faith and beliefs. I remember that I submitted it to the church’s pastor, this a diagram like organizational chart form of New Age that I make. It is not my own schematic diagram, but I based it in my study and research. New age author is the only one—the serpent. No doubt whether the New Age has no source of authority, teachings etc… It boils down to the book of Genesis that says “ you will be like God.”

Whether it is Zen or any other Buddhist, they are still Buddhist in principle. There is no past or present distinction when it comes to embracing a practices that is not Christianity.

There is absolutely NO requirement to agree with you about the nature of the Biblical texts being the so-called "infallible word of God". That is not taught in scripture, and is in fact a modern doctrine! Here's what I don't agree with: Your Theology. That is not the same as not finding Truth in scripture. It's not agreeing with YOU. Are YOU infallible?

I’m not infallible because I’m not God. The Scripture is the breath of God and inspired words for teaching and rebuking.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

BTW, this business of Emptying the Mind, or "No thoughts", does not mean you are vacant! That is the core misunderstanding of you and your evangelical anti-meditation folks. You are NOT vacant in a state of "no-thought". If you were, then how would you be aware you had no thoughts? "Empty mind" simply means thoughts are not present, only AWARENESS is. It is a state of being 100% fully present in mind, without the distraction of thoughts.

So, again, misinformation and misunderstanding of all of these things is the basis for all the objections that are made. None of them fit the actual practices or beliefs about them.

Prophecy: The response will be "but it's not taught in scripture", repeat mantra over and over hoping it will change the facts.

How can you be aware if you have no thoughts remain. The bible clearly says in 2 Cor.10:5. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Col. 3:2-3
2. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

I don’t think you read this or you missed this one that I posted before. This is a Buddhist Meditation.

Traditional Empty Mind Meditation
The traditional Empty Mind method is quite simple, but very difficult to achieve.
1. Sit in a meditation posture. Full lotus, half lotus or Burmese positions are usual, but you can sit on a straight backed chair.
2. Use abdominal breathing. Your abdomen expands on the in breath; it contracts on the out breath.
3. Observe the breath coming in your nostrils and going out of your mouth.
4. Count your breaths from 1 to 9. At 9 begin counting over again at 1.
5. Observe the thoughts passing through your mind until you experience a small gap between two thoughts where there is no thought.
6. Focus gently in those gaps, making them last longer and longer until no more thoughts remain. Buddha used this method to reach Enlightenment. It has been used successfully by millions of practitioners since. All it takes is dedicated effort and perseverance over years of practice. You will eventually get there. exploremeditation.com

Mindfulness of Amitābha Buddha (from wikipedia, Buddhist meditation)
In the Pure Land tradition of Buddhism, repeating the name of Amitābha Buddha is traditionally a form of Mindfulness of the Buddha (Skt. buddhānusmṛti). This term was translated into Chinese as nianfo (念佛), by which it is popularly known in English. The practice is described as calling the buddha to mind by repeating his name, to enable the practitioner to bring all his or her attention upon that buddha (samādhi).[14] This may be done vocally or mentally, and with or without the use of Buddhist prayer beads. Those who practice this method often commit to a fixed set of repetitions per day, often from 50,000 to over 500,000.[15] According to tradition, the second patriarch of the Pure Land school, Shandao, is said to have practiced this day and night without interruption, each time emitting light from his mouth. Therefore he was bestowed with the title "Great Master of Light" (大師光明) by the Tang Dynasty emperor Gao Zong (高宗).[16]

In addition, in Chinese Buddhism there is a related practice called the "dual path of Chán and Pure Land cultivation", which is also called the "dual path of emptiness and existence."[17] As taught by Venerable Nan Huaijin, the name of Amitābha Buddha is recited slowly, and the mind is emptied out after each repetition. When idle thoughts arise, the phrase is repeated again to clear them. With constant practice, the mind is able to remain peacefully in emptiness, culminating in the attainment of samādhi.[18]

Jesus said “deny” yourself and not “empty” yourself.
Mark 8:34
34. And He summoned the multitude with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Doesn't matter. Divinity is Divinity.

Hi Sojourner,

See, Sojourner, I believed that I clearly point it out. If the sacred communion belongs to Jesus, then there is a distinction of who we are—doing the communion, not just to any deity that you want.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

All meditative practices are vehicles for communion with the Divine. I never said yoga was appropriate for Xy.

Then if that is the case, the form, way or procedure of meditation should be defined clearly.

It does't matter what you call the destination. Some call it "Los Angeles." Some call it "The City of Angels." Some call it "Hollywood." All roads are sure paths.

Yes, they have a sure path to their own deities or god. How about the way/road to Jesus? I believed those who have a different sure path (other than Jesus path) does not go to the path—of Jesus, unless they will know that the path of Jesus is the true path.

God owns all the roads.

You may say that, but do you think all will pass and go inside that road? Not all of them because they have their own path—as you have said.

That's not what I said. I said that idolizing the texts through such farcical stances as sola scriptura is disdainful.

How come Scripture becomes a means to idolatry? How about the Islam, Buddhist and other faiths who have their own Bible? Do you consider them as idolatry? If that is your reasoning, then you should also call them idolatrous. Your logic of relative truth already backfired your reasoning.

Scripture was never intended to be the be-all-end-all of revelation.

It’s really confusing on how you embraced the word of God. You seemed like the Scripture but on the other hand, you criticize them as not infallible. You even treated them as only poetry or metaphor which totally invalid their authenticity, and now idolatry. I see instability of handling the Scripture in you. Which is which?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I don't care. None of that makes him an expert. I've studied genealogy for 20 years. That doesn't make me a genealogist. Carrot Top is available for radio and television interviews and college assemblies, too. Fred Phelps loves the Lord, too. What's your point?

I believed in the truth of the word. Yes, you don’t need to care who he is. If there’s somebody who is telling the truth inspite of—who he is, a janitor, housekeeper, a laborer or simply a beggar, there is no equivalent to the truth that they may say.

Just like in the (legal) court, a person who will testify to surfaced the truth. The court does not need to choose the status of a person to witness the truth. The jury will not look at his/her status to justify the truth that transpired. Any people can testify as long as he saw the truth.

Same logic behind the word of God, the truth has been laid down to us by Jesus Christ. It is up to us if we will embrace the truth. That truth can set us free from deception.

Thanks

Note: Sojourner, just to tell you that I’m not familiar with personalities (except for religious discussion personalities) that you mentioned since I’m not residing in your country.

 

[Yoshua]

Correct.

All bread mystically become one loaf?By Yoshua

Come on. There is no such thing as magic to the Holy communion, maybe for the doctrine of Roman Catholics.

I'm sue you don't. I can't help your theological shallowness.

I don’t see anything with the Lord’s Supper like the feeding of five thousand.By Yoshua

If you use “theological shallowness” to my understanding, then you should present proof or evidence that I’m incorrect. Can you give your first statement to prove your point about the Lord’s Supper and Feeding of Five thousand of Jesus?

No it wasn't. That belief was present in the very beginning.

That was a Roman Catholic Catechism made by man.By Yoshua

Then please prove it to me. I need to see it.

I dont do that at all. it may appear so to one whose interpretational tools are limited and whose exegetical understanding is limited, but that's not the case.

Then if that is the case, why do you believe in such magic? I don’t think the Lord’s Supper is a complicated one to interpret. I think it is getting complicated if you believe in a doctrine that is not consistent with the Scripture; why don’t we expound it since you know how to exegete?

John 6:55 -- "For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink..." How come it's actual/real flesh and blood, if it's food and drink?

Matt. 26:25-29
The Lord's Supper Instituted
26. And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
27. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
28. for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29. "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

V.29 is clear that it is the fruit of the vine that they drinking and not the real blood of Christ.

John 6:47-56
47. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48. "I am the bread of life.
49. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50. "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51. "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh."
52. The Jews therefore began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53. Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55. "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Oh! Then you are now saying we are eating the real flesh and blood of Christ. So, we call it “vampirism” and “cannibalism,” how would you reconcile that?

The Scripture is again a metaphor, Sojourner, you believe now in metaphor as literal interpretation of the word. How do you exegete and reconcile John 10:9. "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture and John 6:55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink 56."He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.??

If the flesh of Jesus is the true flesh and the blood is the true blood—as you mentioned, do you mean that Christ is also (literally) now a door (material), a house door or a gate, or something?

Yes! They put a different religious twist on it, but the architecture of the meal and the surrounding celebrations is the same. If one attended a Roman symposium and a very early celebration of the the Eucharist, one would see, essentially, the same thing, with different words.

You know, Sojourner, you believe more on your Roman symposium practices than Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour; you trusted the Roman symposium rather than Jesus Christ.

Practical and logical thinking seems not working for you—to prove a fallacious conclusion that Jesus followed the pagan practices. Have you ever think, why Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt. 12:8)? Do you think that Jesus is the Lord of all despite of anything that surrounds Him? Jesus already faced a lot of threats and angered by the Jews, how can He focus on paganism rather than their Supper? Or the Romans who are there (maybe) should follow what Jesus was doing.

Yet the Roman symposium does not have an effect to their Supper, they still continue to do what Jesus had told them (disciples) to do in remembrance of Him.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Jesus did. And Jesus was fully human just like us.

Can you become Jesus incarnated as the Son of God who will save people from their sins? Logic.

No, I'd say that Xy wan't true for them.

Because Christians focus their eyes to what Jesus confessed that He is the way , the truth and the Life. There is truth in Christianity because of Jesus.

Bollocks.

BOLLOCKS means "Rubbish" or "Something great" or "Testicles." Why you used this word? This is a foul word.

The mission of Christians and the New Age is totally different. New Age is All is One. Christianity is All must be submit, obey, and draw near to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

For your info, "mystical silence" is a spiritual application, that is germane to many different religions.

Yet your mystical application is not the same mystical application of Christianity.

No, your senses are heightened and your attention is focused.

Absolutely not! focus on another thing, and that another thing is not focused (exactly ) to Christ. Did yoga pointed you to Christ?

Mistaken is mistaken. You're mistaken and the idiot you're quoting is mistaken.

Not mistaken but the truth. God initiated and not man initiated. That is biblical. Anyway

He was conflating a trance with the Pentecost event.

He used trance as an example between God-initiated and man-initiated. That is an example of mystical experiences.

No. He didn't. He thinks he did; you think he did. But you're both mistaken.

Acts 11:5
5. "I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me,

He is praying. He did not say that he like to trance.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
2. who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Did John seek to initiate the revelation be given to him? Of course not. Even the Disciples did not seek more mystical experiences through healings and casting out demons. These are the evidence that Jesus did not taught us to seek for mystical as Higher Self or Higher Enlightenment to reach God, but follow what He command us to do stated in the Scriptures.

Hey, this nonsense is your dog-and-pony show. I'm merely illustrating that this is the way you're treating the bible with regard to spiritual practices. Take it up with the right side of your brain.

I’m asking you again, where in the Lord’s Prayer taught us to pray for our needs? Where?

All of this is based in your misunderstanding of what's going on.

Come on. You’re in the biblical studies. How can you evade yourself to the truth of the Scripture. We may discuss this briefly if you want to prove to you that I’m not misunderstood.

Of course they can!

Yoga and mantra cannot be mixed nor attach with intercessory prayer--quoted with Scriptures By Yoshua

Prove it.

Contemplation is the checking process.

If you knew what you were talking about, this might be an interesting discussion. As it is, it's merely tedious -- like teaching a pig to sing.

Then how do you check using contemplation as not blindly following what contemplation is? May I hear from you?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No.

1.) Did you believe that the account (in the Bible) about Jesus is real (really happened)?By Yoshua

Oh Really. Then how come you believe in some of the account about Jesus like the Lord’s prayer, that they do the Lord’s Supper, quoting verses, and belief in the Trinitarian doctrine etc…?

I believe the writer thought that.

Did you believe that Jesus believed evil spirit as unclean spirit?By Yoshua

So where is your belief came from?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

That's a lie. I do trust the texts -- to be what they are and to do what they dod.

You say you don’t believe in the narratives about Jesus as really happened; you don’t believe in casting out demons happened at the time of Jesus, and you only believe that it is the writer’s thought only.

1) They're not "my standards." They're accepted, scholastic standards of critical, exegetical discovery. 2) The texts aren't "infallible."

He has his own standard of accepting it as God’s infallible word? By Yoshua

This is another one. You say you trust the text, but not standards, and not infallible? Consistency

Can you say to your wife that you trusted her, but as only your wife, and because you’re being wrong? If you are right, then I don’t trust you anymore.

in·fal·li·ble
adjective: infallible
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

And it's all filtered through your lens of understanding. Therefore, by definition, you have pronounced your truth, and brought your version of God's word. You add your flavor to it.

Come on. Sojourner. I’m not filtering it but showing to you what the interpretation of the Scripture is saying. Then, we can dig the Scripture for study if you like, since you have a Masteral in biblical studies, why not dwell in studying it rather than saying it is my version. I have the supporting Scripture to show it to you. It is not me but the Scripture itself talking.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

You ignore others who also cite scripture, but have a different understanding of them than yourself. You only think your ideas are the only correct ones. You think others have to think in the manner you do, in order to be doing what is "in accord with scripture". Once again, you have yet to show where anything these practices are doing which is a violation of the injunctions Jesus taught. Whenever you point to something you think is a contradiction, it is always an error of understanding what you are criticizing, and when corrected, you ignore us and stick with your Internet authorities who have no credentials or credibility, or limited experience and failed practice who rather than accepting responsibility vivifies the systems itself.

When it comes to spiritual practice, I follow Spirit. After all, "spiritual" means of the Spirit, right? "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." It sounds to me Jesus placed the importance on following, or being led by Spirit. I don't really see the emphasis on "Biblical Infallibility" you hamer us with being found in Jesus' teach.

If the authorities or articles that I posted before to show you the error of such practices will not be accepted nor passed unto you, what more if I quoted Scriptures as the authority—unless you’re saying it is only man’s written Scripture?

Like this one. Windwalker, you said that you follow the Spirit of God. You quoted John 3:7-8,
7. "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.'
8. "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

You picked up the v.8, now if I may ask you, Are you born-again? Did you follow what Jesus said that you should be born-again?

Then if you don’t believe in the infallibility of the Scripture, why used John 3:8? Where is your standard of consistency?

And here is the core why you do not accept or listen to anything we say. You feel we need to accept the modern doctrines of Biblical Inerrancy and Biblical Infallibility. You see him saying things like the Bible is full of cultural artifacts, that these are the words of fallible humans speaking the truths of God as they understood them at the time, as "not fully trusting Scripture". This is a false premise right at the outset, one which alienates you from growing in knowledge and truth. One which itself is not supported by Scripture. It is in fact a modern doctrine, not a Biblical doctrine.

Actually I listened carefully your message. Non-acceptance to your belief does not mean I don’t listen what you’re saying. It is just your practice does not comply with the truth of the Scriptures.

Here's what Wikipedia says about the modern doctrine of Biblical Infallibility you are unaware of. "The idea of Biblical infallibility gained ground in Protestant churches as a fundamentalist reaction against a general modernization movement within Christianity in the 19th and early 20th centuries." It's modern, 19th and 20th century, and a reaction against Modernity. That those like Sojourner or myself, or frankly all others in this discussion find the modern doctrine misguided in thinking and in fact checking, does not mean we find no value or truth in Scripture. It's not a black and white matter as you seem incapable of not thinking in terms of. You are believing a modern doctrine, not something that was directly taught in scripture.

Ok. Let us say this will be your understanding that they (Protestants) gained ground as reaction against modernity. Do you think this ground may affect the infallibility of the Scriptures?

Of course it is not, if the contemplative teachings/mystical claimed their ancient tradition like the Desert Fathers, why not the Scriptures that were written by the Apostles?

The Scripture is still the Scripture, you cannot erase what Jesus told us in Luke 21:33. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” The Scripture does not change because of the wikipedia announcing the Bible infallibility. We have many translation of the Bible before 19th century, but still we may seek the original text of the Scripture for interpretation purposes.

So if you are to say we are practicing a modern practice of meditation, you are no different in believing a modern doctrine of Biblical Infallibility. We find support for meditation in scripture, you find support for Biblical Infallibility in scripture, even though neither are explicitly taught.

We don’t believe in modern doctrine that will add to the Scripture. No way for adding. Anybody can take the Scripture and use it as their support. This is already happened a very long time ago by cult group and new religious group. What we should know—is the truth in the light of the Scripture. The truth that is sound with the teaching of Jesus.

You don't follow what I posted. I quoted it to show how there are those, such as yourself and your friend, who are not ready to open themselves to things which are more advanced than what they are ready for. If they get ahead of themselves, it will result in confusion for them, or freak them out, or send them off into fanaticism or some such other spiritual disease. The evidence of the lack of preparedness, the "babes in Christ" that Paul speaks of them as, is all the debating of "authorities", etc which you are doing in this thread. "I am of Paul! I am of Apollos! You don't trust the scriptures! Where's your Biblical support!", etc.

It is a faulty interpretation. We are not adhering to such belief that is not in accordance with Jesus’ teaching. Paul did not teach anything mystical like yoga practice and mantra as essential to spirituality. Then, that is the proof that 1 Cor. 3:1-3 should not be quoted here. Did I say I’m the authority? Or what I quoted Scripture is the authority. Try to study biblical interpretation so you may understand what the text is saying.

That's right, and I didn't quote it for that reason. You should read more careful what I say before creating a strawman response like this. Don't make me waste my time having to correct you all the time, every time. Be more careful, more focused in understanding what I type before responding.

I’m careful enough to state my message to you. It is true that Paul did not utter a statement pertaining to yoga. Isn’t it? Why become a strawman now? Paul is a Christian, and yoga is not a Christian practice, you are trying to insert it to Christianity.

Within the response of your soul.

The guidance comes from the Spirit of God, not by our own will. Don’t own the Spirit, we respond to the conviction of the Spirit of truth if we sinned.

Yet then why do you do it? I'll post this again here because it pertains:

I know you will comment on this. As I said again, the Scripture is still the word of God. The Word of God is the truth. We should stick to the truth.

What you are doing in the image above is taking the truth of the blue square and pounding the pulpit in black and white thinking, "It's clearly the blue square, and cannot be the yellow circle, because it's a blue square! A blue square is not a yellow circle! You are WRONG! Where's your scripture that shows a yellow circle!" This is what you are doing throughout this discussion.

You are right, only by accident, that in the light of Truth, there can be no black and white thinking. Black and white thinking is inconsistent with Truth, which contains all perspectives, Blue Square, Yellow Circles, White Cylinders, etc. It sees "from above", outside and beyond all relative positions. If you were not thinking in Black and White terms, you wouldn't be trying to prove all of us wrong as you are.

I know you will comment on this. As I said again, the Scripture is still the word of God. The Word of God is the truth. We should stick to the truth. Who’s wrong, the Scripture? How can you be in relative position, you cannot prove about relativity principle. You’re trying to attach other beliefs in Christianity which is not what Jesus taught. Relative is false, no consistency and capability to prove the truth.

No, you are the preacher of your own ideas as the truth of God and lack the spirit of humility necessary in order to lead anyone into Truth itself, into Spiritual Knowledge.

Sorry. Windwalker. It is obviously not me because I follow what Jesus taught us. The Word is the light of my path. And I ‘m 100% believe in the word of God. Mysticism and experience cannot be proved without a basis, lets accept it.

None of the above. 0% is the correct answer. That is a modern doctrine formulated in the 19th Century in the West in response to rise of Modernity in Christianity, one which I feel does not reflect the truth of God as I understand it in my spiritual growth. That doctrine is not a requirement of Faith.

This is what I mean. It is like saying that everything that happened on this earth is void, there is no one who is under the authority. You have the doctrine, every beliefs has a doctrine.

Did I ever use the term "Higher Self" in any of this discussion? I don't believe I have, but in either case I don't find the term as bad as you do. But it has nothing to do with me saying your claim that meditation opens you to Satan is without support. What does the "higher self" have to do with you supporting your claim? None. You still haven't supported your claim, 43 pages later now!

The following are your posted messages which does not conform to the biblical teaching between the mind, Self and Christ. Those are the New Age language and principles.

~I don't read the Bible as an owner's manual. That's how. The Spirit guides into all Truth. There is a difference between truth and facts. The Spirit does not guide you into discovering the truth of mathematics or chemistry. It guides you into the knowledge of Self.


~That's almost hard to do since it's pretty much in everything that is being said about what this 'reconciliation to God' is. "And lo, I am with you always,", "Christ in you", "I in you and you in me," "that they may be One as we are One", and so forth. What I think I'm trying to say is that these verses are not speaking of some theoretical thing you "believe in", but rather is an actual, lived, consciously aware state of mind and being. Reconciliation with God is not something in some legal book in heaven, a ledger line notation that happens 'behind the scenes'. These words are not religious platitudes, but actual realized experiential states of being. Jesus is the Light of the World, and in that same way so are we, or can be, if that Light lives in us. That is immediate awareness of God in body, mind, soul, and spirit. That is direct communion with God.


~Most of the time we are just operating in our heads, thinking about this or that, reacting to this or that from that place of our egos, our thoughts, our emotions, our beliefs, our values, our ideas, and so forth. But this is not the Mind of Christ. This is our minds. To know the Mind of Christ, is well, literally like ~having two brains.

We begin to be able to think and understand through this "higher mind",as it were. It's not just a question of "what would Jesus do," sort of thing, but it becomes a different set of eyes that we see through which affects our minds, our bodies, our emotions, our attitudes, our actions, and so forth. You become much more consciously aware of the world, the presence of Spirit in everything, you see and feel God and move in its movements, so to speak. It's really hard to describe this in words, other that the use of metaphor and poetry.

~As far as "Integral" goes, that's not a form of meditation practice. And I'm curious if you even understand what "meditation of higher Self" actually means? Care to try to explain?

A friend of mine recently had a realization that the prayer of "I surrender" actually had a connotation to him that was creating resistance for him "letting go". The idea of "surrender" as he was taking it, which is much in the manner you suggest it, has the suggestion of handing over your sword to the vanquishing Warlord whom you wishes to take control of everything you are, to take it away from you as in defeat. I thought that was an interesting realization on his part, and one that is in fact inherent in our way of thinking about what "surrender" means in regards to God. I think you interpret the word in that same vein. I don't, however.

Here's how I understand it instead. This "surrender", really is matter of 'letting go' into God. It is an action of not laying down my will to the Great Power above me, but a release of my own clinging to the things which prevent me from letting go, and merging into God. It is laying down my self-seeking in order to merge my will into God. God's will becomes my will. My will becomes God's will. I and my Father are One. That, is "surrender". Its is surrendering oneself to Love, for the sake of Love itself. It is marriage, not the conquered one laying down arms in defeat. There is a subtle, but vastly different attitude that either lays one low into "submission" before God as a conquering Dictator or Warlord, as in how you use it, or one which carries one into God, through Spirit in marriage and Unity, in how I use it. The former understanding is immature, the latter is mature.

Windwalker, Laying down and Submission is totally different in concept and will. If you lay down something—as disciples and other followers of Christ did—is to submit to His authority.

You lay down and letting go to whom? Who is that Great Power? Your terminology smells like a different source of power indeed. Sorry to say that. This is because of your inability to confess the source of your power. There are only two who had the power in this world—God and Satan/evil spirits. Who’s God you surrendered your will?

You cannot be one to your Father if you did not submit. The word is SUBMISSION.

Mk. 14:36 And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.''

If Jesus submits to His Father, what is the reason why you did commit submission to God? Is the Father (God) a dictator to Jesus?

James 4:7 “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Eph. 5:21 “submitting to one another in the fear of God.”

You make your beliefs God. You aren't operating out of faith when you do that.

Jesus said, faith saves, and not the Great Power.

 

[InChrist]

First, I don't know much about the Emergent movement and am only now learning about it through this thread. I applaud it from what I'm learning of it.

You may really want to learn more before you applaud...
Emergent Deconstruction, Train Tracks to Auschwitz
http://www.holybibleprophecy.org/2013/07/02/emergent-deconstruction-train-tracks-auschwitz/

Below is an in depth documentary on the emergent church movement which includes the perspectives of Phyllis Tickle, Brian McLaren, and Doug Pagitt, among others.

 

[Yoshua]

Two other things I'd like to mention about the videos:
1) Why in the world would they lump in Benny Hinn and Rick Warren with Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin -- as if they espouse the same kind of spirituality at all???
2) The "experts" mentioned that true spirituality can only be obtained by studying the bible, yet they turn right around and say that spiritual growth isn't an intellectual process -- completely ignoring the fact that reading the bible is an intellectual process. Either God enters through the mind or through the senses, so which is it, guys??

Hi Sojourner,

Spiritual discernment is not like buying things inside the store. This is operated by God and sensing who is sidestepping outside the authority of the Scripture. The Holy Spirit is the one who guide us to discern deceitfulness and counterfeit practices.

2 Peter 2:1-3 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

There is sooo much misinformation, fear mongering, and deflection packed into this troubled collection of red herring and straw man fallacies, I don't know where to begin to refute it all; it's all just so ... wrong -- in its premise, its presentation of evidence, its conclusions. These bozos don't have Any. Idea. what the Emergent Movement is all about. Nor do they really have any idea what "biblical Xy" is. Fear, lies, and misinformation is no way to promote a true spirituality -- in any time. Never have I seen a better example of using blinders of fear as a way to market one's brand of religion. Perhaps when I have more time, I may waste some of it refuting the videos -- a waste because those who would be convinced already know that the videos are complete bullspit, and those who buy into that kind of fear mongering presented in the videos aren't going to be convinced by anything I might have to say, because they'd rather believe a bunch of confirmation bias than they would believe someone who really knows a lot about mystic spirituality and the Emergent Movement.

I just watch these videos, those are the truth about the emerging church. It is wrapped up together with the New Age who will have a big role in the Utopian--one world religion. This is what the relative views is all about, All is God, All is One. This is exactly what I want to convey as I gradually imparting to this thread. As the video say in the last part, if you will believe what the Bible is saying or not. That is up to the hearer of the word.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Oh my. I don't know why I exposed myself to their poison. I watched most of this, picking apart the errors along the way. I will summarize those videos thusly: Sick, paranoid delusions, conspiracy theory, spiritual illness, spiritual disease, narcissistic disorders, legalism, and Antichrist and demonic on top of it all. I need a bath to cleanse my mind and soul. Yuk.

I really, genuinely try to understand another's point of view out of compassion and love, to not judge those who see differently than myself but to learn to appreciate and respect with the heart of empathy, which is why I gave it an earnest shot. But these poor souls are against anything that brings love into the world. They see all efforts to reach out to others to help the problems of the world as part of a dark demonic conspiracy of Satan! This is no different than the religious who attacked Jesus as having a devil in helping heal others. It's the same spiritual and mental disease.

This brand of religion is ultra fundamentalist and sees conspiracy in all dark places, making a video of hell with the names of their enemy the Emergent Church embedded within it in their opening credit, filling each scene with dark, ominous devil-in-the-corner music. They explicitly said they would rather preach and make converts than help others in poverty and despair, since this is the end of the world. That is diseased. It is fearful, self-centered, legalistic, and Antichrist in everything they say and teach. It masks itself as truth, but it serves only itself. It is not just diseased, it's demonic. It is poison to the Spirit of God. No wonder they are anti-meditation!

For me to say this, it takes something rather severe. It isn't said lightly. Yuk, and yuk. Poison. Fundamentalism is a disease.

Christianity is sourced from the word of Jesus Christ; either people will follow and submit to Him or not. As simple as that. Did the word of Christ, or the Bible become a poison? Why? how come?

The Scripture is God's word, and not an evil word. It promotes love and submission to God. People may say they follow Jesus teachings, but when they discovered that the words of Jesus is written in the so-called Bible, they changed, and become allergic with the Scriptures. It seems that is very hard for them to follow.

Are the Scriptures--not the words of Jesus, the sign of the end times and His coming? All are laid down to what will be the coming event in the end times. Christianity is against All is One.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Not at all. She was very clear that the intent of our heart meant nothing to God. We had to do what pleases God according to the Bible. That's legalism. It's saying we have to follow the law. Do the 'correct" rituals and practices, "according to the word of God", etc. That's legalism. It's all about "pleasing God" as the Lawgiver you must follow to the T or be sent to the hell these friends of your imagine for those who dare to practice any form of prayer that leads them away from their understanding of the Bible.

How come that the Scripture become a legalism? Jesus ended that legalistic issues in the New Covenant. If you defined handling the Scripture as following and submitting to His word --is legalism, what is not legalism to you?
Is it embracing different practices from other faiths, and pick up Scriptures as needed--that will be fit to the mystical practices?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

The operative term in this ridiculous opinion is "I think." You think. There's a difference between seeing the fidelity of the Emergent Movement with the heart of Christianity and seeing demons in every corner that disagrees with one's particular, uninformed take on religion. But your hubris and condescension in being able to "counsel" us in our "blindness" is touching -- in a saccharin, sort of mawkish way.

The Emergent church goal of spirituality is totally different from the goal of Christianity. The Great Commission is for Christianity, and for Emergent Church is--All is one.

Thanks.

 

[Yoshua]

Benny Hinn and Rick Warren may be doing that, but the others patently are not doing that. Hinn is a charlatan and Warren has sold out to commercialism and Pop-theology. Merton and Teilhard are both deep and solid theologically. They've managed to hit the spiritual nail on the head, these "authorities (whoever they are) don't like it, so they put out these ad hominem attacks.

Is Thomas Merton a theologically sound person? Is he a Buddhist or Christian? Do a Christian who is Buddhist has a deep solid theology?

Quotes by Thomas Merton:
“I’m deeply impregnated with Sufism.” (Merton, The Springs of Contemplation, p. 266)

“And I believe that by openness to Buddhism, to Hinduism, and to these great Asian traditions, we stand a wonderful chance of learning more about the potentiality of our own traditions, because they have gone, from the natural point of view, so much deeper into this than we have.” (Quote by Merton from the book, Lost Christianity by Jacob Needleman)

“I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity … I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can.” (Merton in David Steindl-Rast’s “Recollection of Thomas Merton’s Last Days in the West” – Monastic Studies, 7:10, 1969)

Thanks