• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What is Evidence?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Evidence is something religions do not like, because they don't have any.

Call it whatever you like, proof, verification, religions don't have any......at all
No, we do not have any proof or verification that any God exists or that our religions are true, but we do have evidence.
Evidence is not proof unless that evidence is verifiable.
There is no verifiable evidence that God exists simply because God 'chooses' not to be verifiable. Tough tiddlywinks.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

There are many kinds of evidence, and not all evidence is verifiable. Verifiable evidence is proof because it establishes something as a fact.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact
They have faith
We have evidence-based faith, not blind faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Do you get to decide for yourself what is evidence and what conclusion that evidence supports?

Or is there a standard that something must surpass to be considered evidence and a methodology to showing how the evidence necessarily supports the conclusion being claimed by it.
There really is no standard of evidence for God or a religion because evidence is whatever convinces, and it is an individual thing, not something that needs to be agreed upon, as with a jury in a court of law.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
For example, is the Bible evidence of the existence of God?
It is evidence for some people.
Is the Bible evidence because I say it is evidence? Or is the Bible evidence because surpasses a standard of evidence necessary to be considered evidence.
The Bible is evidence because it causes some people to believe that God exists. There is no standard of evidence for religion as there is for law.
And, if we except the latter, is it evidence of God's existence because I say it is or because I have methodically show that it necessarily leads to that conclusion?
It cannot be 'methodically shown' that God exists, but that does not mean that God does not exist.
Bonus question: If you think there is a standard that must be surpassed for something to be considered evidence, what is it and does the Bible meet that?
There really is no standard of evidence for God or a religion because evidence is whatever convinces, and it is an individual thing.
However, there is a standard that must be met for something to be considered evidence for me personally, and the Bible does not meet that standard, for me personally. In other words, the Bible would not be enough to convince me that God exists, if I had no other evidence.
 
Last edited:

McBell

Unbound
Do you get to decide for yourself what is evidence and what conclusion that evidence supports?
Yes.
And you get to decide for yourself what is evidence and what conclusion that evidence supports.
Problems may arise if your standards for evidence and my standards for evidence different.
The more vast the difference, the more likely there will be problems.

Or is there a standard that something must surpass to be considered evidence and a methodology to showing how the evidence necessarily supports the conclusion being claimed by it.
There are set standards for evidence that vary from discipline to discipline.

For example, is the Bible evidence of the existence of God?
Keeping in mind that the common usage definition for evidence is "that which convinces" pretty much any thing can be evidence.
So yes, depending on your standards for evidence the Bible is evidence for the existence of God.

Is the Bible evidence because I say it is evidence?
If you say it is, then for yourself it is.
Does not mean other people agree it is.

Or is the Bible evidence because surpasses a standard of evidence necessary to be considered evidence.
It passed the standard set by those who say it is, otherwise they would not say it is...
Personally, it does not pass my standard for evidence.

I know of no disciplined (meaning the sciences) standard it passes.

And, if we except the latter, is it evidence of God's existence because I say it is or because I have methodically show that it necessarily leads to that conclusion?
I do not understand this question as written.

Bonus question: If you think there is a standard that must be surpassed for something to be considered evidence, what is it and does the Bible meet that?
The Bible needs to pass my standard for evidence to be considered evidence.
No, it does not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Always trying to reverse the burden of proof, aren't ya?
Believers have no burden of proof, not unless they are making a claim.
Nonbelievers have the burden to prove that God exists to themselves, if they want to believe.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
About anecdotal evidence...

From one experience with precognition and one with telepathy, I know with certainty that those events can happen. I don't expect others to be persuaded by my anecdotal evidence. However, those experiences have given me insights into the nature of evidence as perceived by others. For example, I don't trust mainstream scientists because I have seen how easy it is for them to raise the bar for evidence so high that findings supporting the paranormal will never be replicated.

At the same time, because of the profit motive, I suspect the bar for approval of drugs that manage diseases for a lifetime are easy to surmount. It's no wonder that Duke University gave up after six years of supporting the Rhine studies on ESP against attacks to fund medical research. In their shoes I'd have done the same.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If your philosophical assumption is physicalism then everything becomes a matter of evidence from physical facts and nothing else is relevant.

If you recognize abstract qualities in your philosophical assumptions, then there is more to infer from evidence beyond the physical.
Physicalism / materialism recognizes abstract qualities, the very names being abstract qualities. What physicalism points out is that the brain, though an extremely complex piece of biochemical / bioelectrical organization, is in all its components and functions material.

If there's more beyond the physical then science isn't going to be the tool to discover it.
We can imagine real and imaginary things. We constantly sort out the world around us by use of categories, which are of course abstractions themselves. Mathematics is completely abstract ─ it doesn't exist outside of our brains (despite what the Platonists say).

One can incorporate scientific methods in exploring abstract reality, but it's not going to be demonstrated with the level of certainty one can have with just physical facts. So religious, and philosophical truths are far more challenging to find, and easier to deny.
In my view, the world external to the self contains no abstractions as such ─ which is to say, if no brain is around interpreting what is seen, no abstraction of any kind is present,
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Physicalism / materialism recognizes abstract qualities, the very names being abstract qualities. What physicalism points out is that the brain, though an extremely complex piece of biochemical / bioelectrical organization, is in all its components and functions material.
How would you model an abstract quality to the brain? What causes you to associate one with the other?
We can imagine real and imaginary things. We constantly sort out the world around us by use of categories, which are of course abstractions themselves. Mathematics is completely abstract ─ it doesn't exist outside of our brains (despite what the Platonists say).
The question is does physics operate mathematically and why do they work so well together? Is math merely a system designed to mimic what happens in the real world? Why are math discoveries preceding physics discoveries?
In my view, the world external to the self contains no abstractions as such ─ which is to say, if no brain is around interpreting what is seen, no abstraction of any kind is present,
Yet we have an inner qualitative life that we can introspect on. How does that life map to the brain? Just the mere act of introspection itself with the ability to examine feelings, and to relate thoughts and memories within.

What about the fact of selves and self identity?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
No, because that is a set of possible explanations that you find inconvenient.
So, you leapt to the conclusion that someone who reports having had paranormal experiences must be too dumb to rule out other obvious explanations.

I suspect your problem is a simple confirmation bias. it rankles you to read something that conflicts with the current beliefs that you hold near and dear.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How would you model an abstract quality to the brain? What causes you to associate one with the other?
Our brains have evolved to assess sensory input and interpret the world external to the self so as best to survive and breed, the imperatives of evolution.

If you've ever watched an infant in the arms of his or her carer, you'll notice how the infant will look both at the face of the carer, and also where the carer points; and how, also instinctively, when the carer names the thing pointed to, the infant will repeat the name. Car. Plane. Daddy. Mommy. And how the infant will have no trouble with moving from category to example and back, the difference between 'a dog' and 'this dog', 'a car' and 'this car' &c.

Each of these categories exists as sets of abstractions in the brains both of carer and of infant. Some abstraction have real counterparts ─ Daddy ─ and some will be generalizations ─ (a) car ─ so that eg there's only one Daddy and only one "our car" but lots of adult males and lots of cars.

Thus the category 'car' doesn't exist anywhere but in a brain, whereas the item 'our car' is (at least in this example) real, has objective existence.

The question is does physics operate mathematically and why do they work so well together?
I don't know, but my ignorance doesn't bring Platoland into existence for me, or, I'd argue, for anyone else ─ I'd say Platoland was just as much a human abstraction as the elements and procedures of maths are. It may simply be that certain basics are constant or regular in nature, hence are describable in maths terms.

Is math merely a system designed to mimic what happens in the real world? Why are math discoveries preceding physics discoveries?
George Ifrah in his Universal History of Numbers vol 1 suggests that the need for counting was more acute in some primitive situations than others, hence the shepherd would count his sheep (&c) out by transferring one pebble into a bag per passing sheep, and take one pebble out on their return, so that surplus pebbles represented sheep; or might notch a stick for each sheep out and run his thumbnail down the notches on their return; or &c. These systems are still found in various places, as I understand it. When it came to counting-systems, base 10 is from fingers, base 20 (Mayans, Aztecs, Celts, Basques) from fingers and toes. It's unclear (he says) why the Babylonians chose base 60. (I remember at school its divisibility was suggested. 2, 3, 5 give base 30; maybe they originally thought in semicircles.)

Yet we have an inner qualitative life that we can introspect on. How does that life map to the brain? Just the mere act of introspection itself with the ability to examine feelings, and to relate thoughts and memories within.

What about the fact of selves and self identity?
All of these are brain-states or brain processes, some very complex. Our understanding of how the brain works is itself a very large work in progress, of course.

If I were arguing for dualism, I'd be examining the reports of the researchers with great care, because I'd know there HAD to be a part of the brain where events with no physical cause were happening ─ the transferring of immaterial information into the material brain. (Though of course the absence of, or at least the failure to detect, such phenomena isn't the only problem dualism has.)
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
It's unclear (he says) why the Babylonians chose base 60. (I remember at school its divisibility was suggested. 2, 3, 5 give base 30; maybe they originally thought in semicircles.)
You have 12 phalanges you can easily point to with your thumb. That gives you a duodecimal basis. On the other hand you have five fingers to count up the dozens. Et voilà, you have a sexagesimal system.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have 12 phalanges you can easily point to with your thumb. That gives you a duodecimal basis. On the other hand you have five fingers to count up the dozens. Et voilà, you have a sexagesimal system.
That might be it.

It's just that I haven't found any expert opinion to account for it ─ which is not to say there isn't one, or that it differs from yours.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
There is no verifiable evidence that God exists simply because God 'chooses' not to be verifiable. Tough tiddlywinks.

This opens up a very interesting can of worms though, doesn't it?

Agreed that a less powerful being (us) has problems investigating a more powerful being (god, or very advanced alien) because they can't control it (as we can put bacteria on a microscope slide) or limit it's environment (as we make rats try to solve a maze). Thus, as you say, there's always a large helping of doubt that goes with any of our conclusions.

What we are left with is hoping that the superior being will communicate with us and give us information. And that's what we see, with a succession of prophets and messengers claiming to have been given true information. The problem that arises from your quote (above) is that, even granting honest reporting by the messenger and even granting the existence and source of the message (a lot to grant anyway) there's no way to know if the superior being is telling the truth or withholding part of the truth.

Then we can add another layer of doubt, in that your statement that "God chooses not to be verifiable" is itself not verifiable.

So where does that leave us? In my view, all religious claims are by their very nature subject to so much doubt, that maybe we should consider them a waste of time.

I once came up with an idea that we should all just "go on strike" (no more prayers, no more worship, and so on) until God agrees to speak to us more plainly. No way it's going to happen of course, but why not?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Yet no evidence of a global flood, so it works both ways.
I think we have lot of evidence for it:
1) moderns continents
2) marine fossils on high mountain areas
3) Orogenic mountains
4) vast sediment formations
5) Oil, gas and coal fields
6) Stories about it all over the world.
 
Top