What is Faith?

[Magic Man]

So now you're allowing limits in perception?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that question. Having a feeling is always evidence of having a feeling. It's just not necessarily evidence of anything beyond having a feeling.

You allow limits in perception, yet you assert that your perception of faith is correct, and can be the only perception of it.
The two don't go together, yet you are somehow insisting that, in this instance, they do.

It's not that it's my perception of it. It's that that's the definition of faith. I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. The fact is the word faith has several different definitions. They're all separate, and are used in different contexts. Using multiple definitions as if they're the same is equivocating and not useful at all. Let's use a different word to illustrate this. Cabbage can mean the vegetable that looks similar to lettuce and money.

Me: You sure have a lot of cabbage.
You: Yeah, but you have cabbage, too.
Me: Only if you mean "money". But that's different from the cabbage you have.
You: Nuh uh, they're both cabbage, so they're both the same thing.
Me: No, one is a vegetable, the other is a currency. They're completely different things. So, yes, I have cabbage in the sense of money, but I don't have cabbage in the sense of the vegetable.

If you say so.

Not just if I say so, it's just the way things work.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that question. Having a feeling is always evidence of having a feeling. It's just not necessarily evidence of anything beyond having a feeling.

How do you know that someone feeling warmth on their skin, but not knowing what is causing the warmth and calling that warmth the sun, and you seeing a certain part of faith and calling it only that part of faith?
In essence, you have jumped the gun on your conclusion of 'belief without evidence' to encompass all of faith, without realizing that the warmth on your skin could be caused by something else; a heat lamp, perhaps.

It's not that it's my perception of it. It's that that's the definition of faith. I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. The fact is the word faith has several different definitions. They're all separate, and are used in different contexts. Using multiple definitions as if they're the same is equivocating and not useful at all. Let's use a different word to illustrate this. Cabbage can mean the vegetable that looks similar to lettuce and money.

Me: You sure have a lot of cabbage.
You: Yeah, but you have cabbage, too.
Me: Only if you mean "money". But that's different from the cabbage you have.
You: Nuh uh, they're both cabbage, so they're both the same thing.
Me: No, one is a vegetable, the other is a currency. They're completely different things. So, yes, I have cabbage in the sense of money, but I don't have cabbage in the sense of the vegetable.

You believe your perception of reality to be reality. Therefore, you insist that your perception is 'the way it works'. Equivocation is not equivocation when what you are equivocating is actually the same. That you still think I am equivocating shows you do not believe me. Until such time that you do, I can only tell you that faith is the same.

 

[Magic Man]

How do you know that someone feeling warmth on their skin, but not knowing what is causing the warmth and calling that warmth the sun, and you seeing a certain part of faith and calling it only that part of faith?
In essence, you have jumped the gun on your conclusion of 'belief without evidence' to encompass all of faith, without realizing that the warmth on your skin could be caused by something else; a heat lamp, perhaps.

You misunderstand because to understand would mean challenging your assumptions. All I said was the feeling of the sun's warmth on your skin is only evidence of the feeling of the sun's warmth on your skin. I didn't say it was evidence of the sun or evidence that it was the sun's effect, just that it was evidence of that feeling.

You believe your perception of reality to be reality. Therefore, you insist that your perception is 'the way it works'. Equivocation is not equivocation when what you are equivocating is actually the same. That you still think I am equivocating shows you do not believe me. Until such time that you do, I can only tell you that faith is the same.

I believe reality to be reality because my views are based on verifiable facts about reality. You are equivocating different meanings of one word. You can pretend you're not, but it serves no purpose other than to convince yourself you're not wrong. The simply fact is faith in God and faith in your friends are not the same thing, and so pretending they are is equivocating and unhelpful.

 

[waitasec]

You are equivocating different meanings of one word.

it's a habit it seems...

 

[Zuboko]

To me faith is a choice. In a way I guess that you could say that my view of faith would be a combination of trust and loyalty. You trust what you have learned about God and then because you have decided to follow Him you live your life in harmony with what you have learned.

 

[Meow Mix]

To me faith is a choice. In a way I guess that you could say that my view of faith would be a combination of trust and loyalty. You trust what you have learned about God and then because you have decided to follow Him you live your life in harmony with what you have learned.

So what convinces you that God exists in the first place in order to place trust or loyalty in it/him/her?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There's a lot to be said for bona fide faith which is a result of real knowledge which emerges from direct experience (scientific and/or religious), and little to be said for laziness under the guise of faith which is merely a belief of the claims of charlatans (scientific and/or religious).

IOW, knowledge trumps belief!

 

[lunamoth]

To me faith is a choice. In a way I guess that you could say that my view of faith would be a combination of trust and loyalty. You trust what you have learned about God and then because you have decided to follow Him you live your life in harmony with what you have learned.

Well said! Frubals and I agree.

 

[starlite]

So what convinces you that God exists in the first place in order to place trust or loyalty in it/him/her?

Personally I see evidence of God as a Creator when I consider the workings of the universe, the design of the human body. Only God's divine wisdom and intelligence could have created these things and so much more.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Personally I see evidence of God as a Creator when I consider the workings of the universe, the design of the human body. Only God's divine wisdom and intelligence could have created these things and so much more.

You may be in need of reading some more books on science.

 

[Magic Man]

Well said! Frubals and I agree.

So, in essence, the point of this thread was a back-patting session for you and people you agree with. I'm sorry to have disturbed that. I thought the idea of threads around here was more for discussion/debate.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

You may be in need of reading some more books on science.

Perhaps you should as well...

 

[lunamoth]

So, I was just reading an interesting short passage that makes this distinction between faith and belief. Faith precedes belief; it implies a deliberate and positive existential involvement. Beliefs are "intellectual expressions of a people's faith." Beliefs are not faith. One can have faith with myriad different beliefs attached, and one can have beliefs without a basis in faith. (Holmes and Westerhoff, Christian Believing)

Anyhoo, just thought I'd tag that onto this thread, which has already collected so many thoughts about faith.

 

[free spirit]

So, I was just reading an interesting short passage that makes this distinction between faith and belief. Faith precedes belief; it implies a deliberate and positive existential involvement. Beliefs are "intellectual expressions of a people's faith." Beliefs are not faith. One can have faith with myriad different beliefs attached, and one can have beliefs without a basis in faith. (Holmes and Westerhoff, Christian Believing)

Anyhoo, just thought I'd tag that onto this thread, which has already collected so many thoughts about faith.

It also can be said that believe is something you understand to be true, faith is something you do in regard to your believe.

 

[lunamoth]

From Paul Tillich, The Courage to Be:

Faith is not a theoretical affirmation of something uncertain, it is the existential acceptance of something transcending ordinary experience. Faith is not an opinion but a state. It is the state of being grasped by the power of being which transcends everything that is and in which everything that is participates.

 

[Me Myself]

I think visio described it closer to what I feel, but the best descriptino of "faith" to me is a kind of "sense". Like sight, smell, touch, taste and hearing.

Faith is a sort of awareness for me.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Perhaps you should as well...

Oh, I do.
All the time in fact.
Which is how I know that 'god' is at best a non-explanation.

 

[FearGod]

It depends. There are several definitions of faith. Generally when speaking of faith in God, the definition is "belief without evidence".

that is exactly what it means to me,believing in something to be true without asking for evidence

 

[starlite]

The word “faith” is translated from the Greek pi′stis, primarily conveying the thought of confidence, trust, firm persuasion. Faith is based on concrete evidence. The Scriptures tell us: “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Heb 11:1) I take the thought at Heb 11:1 to be how God views faith. That is if you believe the Bible to be his written Word.