What is Faith?

[Trailblazer]

How about, "The evidence you cite does not support your belief because the evidence you cite does not make that claim more likely" and leave it at that? That's my position, not what you wrote.

That's true. That is your position but that is all it is. It is not a fact.
Facts can be proven to be true, your position cannot be proven, to be true, and that's why it is only a personal opinion.

Fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
what is a fact - Google Search

You keep overlooking that the consensus of experts in reason is more valuable than the unsupported opinions of people who haven't learned logic. You don't have a leg to stand on when you are on the wrong side of that.

Experts in reason? What are these people?
Who makes you the authority? Do you have a college degree in reason?

I am not on the wrong side of that since my reason is just fine.
People who haven't learned logic? I have two different Masters degrees so I took courses in research methods and in logic.

Talk is cheap. Put your money where your mouth is. Point out one fallacy you 'believe' that I committed and I will demonstrate how I did not commit it.

Anybody qualified to evaluate evidence and the claim that it is said to support.

I asked: "Who is better qualified to say what is evidence for a claim than the person who makes the claim?"

Do you have a problem with your reading comprehension skills?
I was not referring to evaluating evidence, I was talking about presenting evidence to support a claim.

Can you present evidence for the claim that Baha'u'llah made to be a Messenger of God?

Same thing. How many times to want to have that claim rejected? Say it three hundred more times if you like. It will still be wrong: "Beliefs are prepositional and can be either true or false. Beliefs can be compared to a judgement or an opinion. When a belief is stated in a declarative way, that is when we start calling it a claim or statement." 1. What is critical thinking? | WorldSupporter Summaries and Study Notes.

I made no claims because I have nothing to claim and I am not trying to prove anything. Baha'u'llah made claims and I believe His claims are true.
Do you have a problem with your reading comprehension skills?

There are two more beliefs and claims of yours.

As nouns the difference between claim and belief is that claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while belief is mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence.
What is the difference between claim and belief? | WikiDiff

Baha'u'llah claimed that He was a Messenger of God, a Manifestation of God and the Messiah, so he claimed ownership of those titles.

Get a dictionary. Beliefs are not claims.
An acceptance that my belief is true is not a claim that it is true.
I believe that my belief is true. I never claimed that my belief is true.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

You don't know what a claim is.

Q.E.D.

 

[Valjean]

No, that is incorrect.
The rules of your exercise require independently verifiable evidence.
Our exercise requires evidence and faith, faith in the evidence.

This sounds kind of circular.
What is this evidence, and why should we have faith in it?
If faith is the best level of confidence we can apply, why should we bother with these unverifiable doctrines at all?

Our exercise is realistic, yours is unrealistic, since there is not and never can be any independently verifiable evidence for God.

Exercise?

 

[Valjean]

What is sufficient evidence to one person is not necessarily sufficient evidence to someone else.
We all determine what is sufficient for our own beliefs, or insufficient to believe if we are nonbelievers.

That said, there will never be 'information' about God because information is based upon facts and God can never be established as a fact.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

So let's stop representing God as fact, and his rules as law.

 

[We Never Know]

So let's stop representing God as fact, and his rules as law.

"Let's?"

 

[CG Didymus]

The reason to have faith in God is that it works. And the only way to find out if it works for you is to try it. And keep trying variations of it because like anything else, faith takes practice to become effective.

But different Christians can have slightly different beliefs, like Catholics vs. Pentecostals vs. Fundamentalists vs JW's, and having faith in what they believe works for them. Now add the Baha'is... they have very different beliefs than most Christians, but it works for them. To me, it's kind of like self-fulfilling prophecies. If the person believes that their religion is true, things will happen in their lives that, to them, verifies it.

 

[Valjean]

It is my contention that we can have sufficient evidence to believe in God but we will always need faith to believe in God because the existence of God can never be proven.

As I have said repeatedly on this forum, evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but there can never be any verifiable evidence for God.

Only maths and distilling involve proof, all else is just evidence. I maintain that sufficient evidence justifies a claim of fact. Example: round Earth and heliocentric theory: facts, despite being unproven.

 

[We Never Know]

Only maths and distilling involve proof, all else is just evidence. I maintain that sufficient evidence justifies a claim of fact. Example: round Earth and heliocentric theory: facts, despite being unproven.

Are you saying this picture of earth from the space station is fake?

 

[CG Didymus]

How is this evidence for God, or for the claims of a prophet?

Besides the Baha'i Faith and maybe Islam, what facts does anybody know about any prophet and how factual are the Scriptures related to that prophet?

And even Baha'is don't support some of the stories about Jesus or Moses and the others. And they don't believe the Scriptures of those other religions as being literally true either. So, what they are really saying is that we can look at the life of their prophet and read his writings and know that they are true. But... can we?

 

[CG Didymus]

To me, the best answer to this is that God would know.

In the Bible, God supposedly sent prophets and angels to people. Supposedly, the things came true. Fire from heaven, seas parting, and plagues being sent to those who opposed his people.

Why did God stop doing those things? Or did he? People are still claiming God is doing miracles today. Are they verifiable? Maybe something like the Archangel Michael knocking down Russian missiles as they were heading for Ukraine? Maybe God striking down evil people? Or maybe those stories were real and only myths and legends. And maybe that God that supposedly did those things was also part of the myth.

If God is real, there are probably lots of ways he could prove it. Baha'is don't necessarily want that kind of proof. They want us to believe in the life and writings and their prophet. Which means... put our faith and trust in what they say about God. And how many people have gotten burned believing in wrong concept of Gods and false religious leaders? Best to be careful.

 

[Valjean]

"Let's?"

"Let us." I was trying not to sound accusatory.
So: You religious, stop representing God as fact, and his rules as law.

 

[Valjean]

But different Christians can have slightly different beliefs, like Catholics vs. Pentecostals vs. Fundamentalists vs JW's, and having faith in what they believe works for them. Now add the Baha'is... they have very different beliefs than most Christians, but it works for them. To me, it's kind of like self-fulfilling prophecies. If the person believes that their religion is true, things will happen in their lives that, to them, verifies it.

I think it's more than just what works for them. I don't think "But it works for me!" would make much headway against The Inquisition.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God is real, there are probably lots of ways he could prove it..

Almighty God has created both believers and disbelievers.

G-d knows what he has created. Some people don't care much about spiritual matters.
They are more concerned with their worldly life.

Others seek G-d and study. The more a person loves G-d, the closer they get to G-d.
If G-d had willed, we would all be believers .. but that is not the reality that He created.
He does what He wills. He knows our intentions and sincerity.

 

[F1fan]

I am not making any claims, I am only stating beliefs. Baha'u'llah made claims and I believe His claims based upon the evidence.

Thanks for proving my point.

I elevate my choice to a higher level using evidence and reason.

No you don't, and that is explained by numerous members. You really, really, really want to believe you do, but you don't.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No you don't, and that is explained by numerous members. You really, really, really want to believe you do, but you don't.

Oh, so you're a mind reader now.

 

[Valjean]

Using definition 1 which I believe is a good definition.

Faith is necessary for human's to learn. You must have trust or confidence in something or someone to be able to learn stuff. That faith can be in yourself, your parents your teachers or your god; books, computers, community or the internet but without faith in someone or something you cannot learn. What you learn will not necessarily be fact but will be a knowledge that you will base decisions on because of your faith.

Didn't faith impede scientific progress for centuries? Me, I'd put more faith in skepticism than poorly evidenced beliefs.

 

[F1fan]

Almighty God has created both believers and disbelievers.

Which is a claim without any evidence. Gods aren't known to exist. I supect you make this claim because you want to suggest believers are special abd non-believers are not.

G-d knows what he has created. Some people don't care much about spiritual matters.
They are more concerned with their worldly life.

More claims that not only have no evidence, but are questionable for a mere mortal to assert as it sounds like you are God yourself.

Others seek G-d and study. The more a person loves G-d, the closer they get to G-d.
If G-d had willed, we would all be believers .. but that is not the reality that He created.
He does what He wills. He knows our intentions and sincerity.

This is all for other religious people who hold the same set of assumptions. None of this is true.

 

[F1fan]

Oh, so you're a mind reader now.

No, I have extensive experience with her. My experiences with her are there for all to witness for themslves.

And it's odd for a guy who just wrote a whole post telling others what God thinks as if God is real to be critical of mind reading. Gee whiz, if a God can exist by magic what's wrong with the magic of mind reading?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which puts God in the same category as leprechauns and pink unicorns.

No, not exactly. There is evidence for God but there is no evidence for leprechauns and pink unicorns. The only thing God has in common wiith leprechauns and pink unicorns is that God had never been observed, but there is no reason to think that if God existed God could be observed.

Most people in the world believe in God. How many people believe in leprechauns and pink unicorns?
I am not saying that God exists is true because many or most people believe in God as that is the fallacy of ad populum. I am saying that it makes no sense that so many people would believe in God in the absence of evidence.

Most people consider it reasonable to withhold belief in these, indeed, they'd consider such belief, in the absence of evidence, un-reasonable.

There is evidence and that is why 93% of people in the world believe in God, but there is no testable or observable evidence for God.
Why do you think that if God exists there would be testable or observable evidence for God?

What puts religious belief in a separate category?

The answer to that is easy-peasy. Humans exist in the material world. Science can measure and test for anything that exists in the material world.
God does not exist in the material world so there is no way to observe God or test for God.

 

[Trailblazer]

This sounds kind of circular.
What is this evidence, and why should we have faith in it?
If faith is the best level of confidence we can apply, why should we bother with these unverifiable doctrines at all?

The evidence for the existence of God is Messengers of God. I am not saying that you should have faith in them. You would not want to have faith in them unless a Messenger was determined by you to BE a Messenger of God. You determine that by looking at the evidence the Messenger offered to back up His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

You have to have faith in the Messenger to believe in God because the existence of God can never be proven since there is no way to verify God's existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

So let's stop representing God as fact, and his rules as law.

I never did that.