What is God, from a non-human perspective?

[Eliot Wild]

Not even that. God could be testing to see who is the most gullible, for all you know.

Now that you mention it, I find that to be more believable than a deity who demands mankind act on blind faith. Ehhhh, but that's just me.

 

[kingsherald]

Now that you mention it, I find that to be more believable than a deity who demands mankind act on blind faith. Ehhhh, but that's just me.

The only ones who are truly blind are the ones who refuse to see their own sinfulness and therefore their need of a Savior.

 

[Eliot Wild]

The only ones who are truly blind are the ones who refuse to see their own sinfulness and therefore their need of a Savior.

Really, and how do you know this?

 

[kingsherald]

Really, and how do you know this?

My Lord Jesus Christ tells the self-righteous religious people of His day this very thing in "the Gospel according to John", chapter 9. John being chosen by Christ to be one of His apostles, records the dialogue there. And furthermore Christ has opened my eyes to see my own sinfulness, that I might see my need of Him and be saved from my sin.

 

[Eliot Wild]

My Lord Jesus Christ tells the self-righteous religious people of His day this very thing in "the Gospel according to John", chapter 9. John being chosen by Christ to be one of His apostles, records the dialogue there. And furthermore Christ has opened my eyes to see my own sinfulness, that I might see my need of Him and be saved from my sin.

What made them self-righteous? Was it their religion? Was it their belief that their version of 'the truth' was the only correct one or that their perspective was more accurate than others? Were they self-righteous because they tended to believe that they knew something other people did not? Did they believe they actually knew God personally and communicated with Him, and therefore they felt justified in making declarative statements about others, such as claiming that other people were 'blind', incapable of seeing truth due to some inherent personal deficiency? Were any of the foregoing beliefs and/or actions an aspect of their 'self-righteousness'?

 

[Father Heathen]

Perhaps ask God?

God's perspective of God must be atheistic because I didn't get a reply.

 

[PolyHedral]

My Lord Jesus Christ tells the self-righteous religious people of His day this very thing in "the Gospel according to John", chapter 9. John being chosen by Christ to be one of His apostles, records the dialogue there. And furthermore Christ has opened my eyes to see my own sinfulness, that I might see my need of Him and be saved from my sin.

Now, the problem is that I "know" that God is in fact tricking you, and will send all of those who are gullible enough to believe the Bible and other texts to Hell, since their beliefs do not match reality closely enough for His liking.

Remember, my argument is such that you cannot quote either God or the Bible against it.

 

[kingsherald]

What made them self-righteous? Was it their religion? Was it their belief that their version of 'the truth' was the only correct one or that their perspective was more accurate than others? Were they self-righteous because they tended to believe that they knew something other people did not? Did they believe they actually knew God personally and communicated with Him, and therefore they felt justified in making declarative statements about others, such as claiming that other people were 'blind', incapable of seeing truth due to some inherent personal deficiency? Were any of the foregoing beliefs and/or actions an aspect of their 'self-righteousness'?

Their self-righteousness was shown in that they trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others, who they labelled as "sinners", and so they were, but so were the self-righteous in reality. They also held to religious tradition over and against the Word of God. They boasted of their deeds, and didn't see their need of mercy from God.

But Jesus is called the Friend of sinners, and the self-righteous Pharisees were upset that He was eating and drinking with sinners. Yes, He was conversing with them, and the Pharisees could not stand it. Their works-righteousness religion had them boasting in themselves. They were blind to their sin, therefore their sin remained.

The truth is from God. The grace of God is sufficient for all things pertaining to life and godliness. A man must be born of God, or he cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God. This is the testimony of Scripture.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Their self-righteousness was shown in that they trusted in themselves that they were righteous . . .

So, their sin was self-righteousness which manifested itself in their 'faith', an unconfirmed belief. They were acting on faith, albeit misplaced, and that faith separated them from the real truth of God because they were so sure of their correctness, is that it? But they were deceived by their 'faith', a 'faith' that was maintained without any reasonable physical evidence to confirm it? So, by acting on convictions born of 'faith', they acted 'self-righteously', is that true?

 

[kingsherald]

So, their sin was self-righteousness which manifested itself in their 'faith', an unconfirmed belief. They were acting on faith, albeit misplaced, and that faith separated them from the real truth of God because they were so sure of their correctness, is that it? But they were deceived by their 'faith', a 'faith' that was maintained without any reasonable physical evidence to confirm it? So, by acting on convictions born of 'faith', they acted 'self-righteously', is that true?

No, that is incorrect. Their self-righteousness manifested itself in their denial of their own sinfulness, which in turn caused them to look down on others. Which brings us back to my first point.

BTW- if God does save people from their sins and reveals Himself to them (which Jesus also explains in another place) does it seem so strange that they would claim to possess what they do in fact possess?

In fact the Jews were often trying to kill Jesus because He claimed to be the Son of God, which they understood correctly that He was claiming to be equal with God, even God Himself. But was it wrong for Him to claim to be who He actually is? Of course not.

Likewise, when His people claim to be who they are, because they receive the Spirit of adoption, who bears witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, is it so strange for them to claim to know God and to be the children of God?

 

[Eliot Wild]

No, that is incorrect. Their self-righteousness manifested itself in their denial of their own sinfulness, which in turn caused them to look down on others.

Yet, they denied their own sinfulness because of their faith, right? Or are you saying the pharisees didn't have faith? They had faith they were correct. They had faith they were right and Jesus was wrong.

My point is this, faith is a poor substitute for reason and empirical evidence, as the pharisees found out. I certainly mean no offense, but to me it seems you are behaving exactly like the pharisees by claiming those who don't see things your way are 'blind'. Perhaps you need salvation, as revealed to you when you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone else needs Salvation. You might know without a doubt that you required salvation because you personally experienced that need. But your 'belief' that 'none are so blind as those who fail to see they are sinful and need salvation' is a matter of 'faith'. Just as the pharisees believed through their faith that they were sinless, you believe through faith others need salvation. You may have personally experienced that need for yourself and have 'self-evident' proof of it. But you have no way of knowing what anyone else does or doesn't need.

BTW- if God does save people from their sins and reveals Himself to them (which Jesus also explains in another place) does it seem so strange that they would claim to possess what they do in fact possess?

No, I don't think that is strange at all. However, that was not exactly what you said in your inital response to my earlier post. You said the following:

The only ones who are truly blind are the ones who refuse to see their own sinfulness and therefore their need of a Savior.

This is not a statement about what you possess. This is a declaration of what others lack.

In fact the Jews were often trying to kill Jesus because He claimed to be the Son of God, which they understood correctly that He was claiming to be equal with God, even God Himself. But was it wrong for Him to claim to be who He actually is? Of course not.

Likewise, when His people claim to be who they are, because they receive the Spirit of adoption, who bears witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, is it so strange for them to claim to know God and to be the children of God

I understand that and am not questioning it. And if you restricted your faith-based assertions about spiritual needs to yourself, that would be one thing. Obviously, I certainly can't deny or even really question what your spiritual needs are. If you say you are a sinner and need to be saved, I have no reason to doubt you.

But you said we are all sinners and need to be saved. And furthermore, you said if we can't see that, then we are 'blind', which in my opinion is just a tactful way of saying the rest of us are ignorant and unaware of some inherent flaw within ourselves. Well, speak for yourself, because unless you are God yourself, then you have no idea what other's needs are.

You see, this is my problem with a lot of 'Christians': They often act as if they believe they are Christ/God. They have found truth in Christ's teachings, but instead of sharing those teachings, they insist on incriminating others, declaring with conviction born only of faith, an unproven belief--or at least a belief that is only proven to themselves through their own salvation--that we are all deficient. You have no way of knowing that all are deficient beyond your own personal faith. Yet you assert it as if you were the son of God yourself.

And don't get me wrong, I honestly mean no disrespect. I happen to think Jesus's teachings are pretty cool too. I believe it is right and true that I should treat others the way I want to be treated. I believe in mercy, tolerance, peace, forgiveness and many other things that Jesus taught. If you had restricted your posts to speaking about what you believe was necessary for your own spiritual redemption, I would never have written this longwinded exposition questioning your presumptuous attempt to tell others what they need and how they are blind if they don't realize it.

 

[kingsherald]

You see, this is my problem with a lot of 'Christians': They often act as if they believe they are Christ/God. They have found truth in Christ's teachings, but instead of sharing those teachings, they insist on incriminating others, declaring with conviction born only of faith, an unproven belief--or at least a belief that is only proven to themselves through their own salvation--that we are all deficient.

What it all boils down to is this: Christ did not come merely to be a teacher. He came primarily to die for His people to make atonement for their sins. He came to save His people from their sins. To tell you otherwise is to do a great disservice to your soul. The sin emphasis is Jesus' emphasis. There is a pending judgment coming upon the whole world for their sin. We are here to give warning to all. For the Scriptures declare that all are sinners and in need of a Savior. Yet, not all can receive this message. Only those chosen of God can receive it. We do not accept Christ, but He searches for us and finds us, as the Good Shepherd finds his sheep that stray from the fold. Salvation is God's act. Yet it comes through the preaching of the Gospel, which is commanded by Christ to His church to be preached to every creature.

So, here I am, warning everyone to flee to Christ, for the judgment is coming, even as in the day of Noah when he warned them about the flood, but they just went on in their business and didn't pay any attention to him. And the flood came and covered the earth and killed every human being on the earth except Noah and his family, eight souls were saved. This was a type of the coming judgment, except this time it will be with fire.

I don't know who the elect are, God doesn't tell us beforehand. So I warn indiscriminately, and trust God that He will move by His Spirit to convict some of their sin and draw them to Christ. This is in obedience to Christ. Also, knowing the pending judgment, and knowing that Christ has saved me from the penalty of my sins, and is saving me from the power of my sins, and knowing the eternal treasure that Christ is, and the terrors of the LORD towards unforgiven sinners, I persuade men. I want others to know the Christ that I know. It is a matter of obedience and a matter of love. Please think about these things the next time you hear a Christian speaking fervently about these matters.

If you saw the bridge was out and a car was headed for that bridge unaware, even a less than loving person would try to warn that car to take heed, lest he fall into the abyss. Well, those who know Christ have the witness of the Holy Spirit in themselves. And we were that car headed for the abyss and were warned by others and were occasioned to believe and look to Jesus on the Cross. And through prayerful repentance against the backdrop of Christ's dying love on the Cross, we were saved from that chasm of eternal darkness.

So, we desire greatly for others to know the same salvation, the same Jesus we know. It is from the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. Many Christians, while we are warning you, we are also praying for your eternal salvation in Christ and that you may dwell with God in Paradise for all eternity. God has taught us these things from His word, and as faith begets faith, so we speak words of faith, primarily to glorify God, which is the reason for preaching the truth of God, (for God is glorified both in man's rejection and his reception of Christ) and also that God may beget faith in some unto eternal life, as many as He has ordained unto eternal life. These will surely believe and also receive the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[Eliot Wild]

So, here I am, warning everyone to flee to Christ, for the judgment is coming, even as in the day of Noah when he warned them about the flood . . .

And do you not think that telling people they are 'blind', telling them essentially they are deficient, wretched, ignorant and unworthy of the Ideal in which you have placed your faith, do you not think that might rub some people the wrong way?

You can spend all your time between now and Armageddon insisting that you are merely trying out of love to save souls, but the presumptious nature of your approach makes me think your rhetoric is not for others but for yourself, at least that is the way it sounds to me. I certainly can't speak for anyone else.

It is one thing to claim you have been blessed with a divine truth which has saved your soul from devastation and that you would like to share that particular truth with others. It is entirely another thing indeed to tell people they are sinful and out of touch with God, and furthermore that they are blind, essentially ignorant, if they don't agree.

Again, telling people they are 'blind' is not a statement about what you possess or what you have been lucky enough to discover; it is a declaration of what others lack. And truth be told, you have absolutely no idea what others lack, unless you are God yourself. Your convictions are born of faith, not personal knowledge about the content and integrity of another's everlasting soul. And you certainly have no idea whether or not a person is 'blind'. Maybe Jesus knew the contents of another's soul, if He truly was God, but no mere human such as yourself does.

Maybe some of the people you refer to as 'blind' see all too clearly what they lack but refuse to accept it if it means compromising their own integrity. To accept your version of the 'truth', that means I would have to accept that it is fair for God to punish his own creations indiscriminately, arbitrarily picking and choosing who gets saved and who gets passed over. It would mean that I have to agree it is fair for God to punish people based on the sins of their fathers, that we are all subject to the sin of Adam, a man I am not even sure existed but who I certainly have never met. Why should I pay for his sin? If your God wants to send me to a firey hell because a talking snake lured my great, great, great, great grandparents to disobey God, then I don't want to join His team. My conscience tells me we should judge each and every individual on the merit of their own actions and not based on the behavior of others.

But honestly, no offense, though I can't say for certain, it doesn't seem to me that Christians who tell others they're 'blind' are acting out of love and a sincere desire to save lost souls. Telling someone they're blind sounds more like proud, arrogant boasting that one has been enlightened with a divine truth which others have missed. Of course, I have no idea what would cause a Christian to tell someone such a thing, as I, unlike Jesus, don't have the ability to read the content of another's soul nor the ability to know for sure the motives behind their presumptious statements.

Besides, I have always thought Christ's teachings about how we should treat one another were far, far more important than the highly interpretive and woefully misunderstood implications of 'spiritual salvation' or the lack thereof. But hey, that's just me.