What is immoral about casual and friendly sex between adults?

[ppp]

I know this.
The numbers are backing up the assertion that there must be at least some abortions in the wake of casual sex related pregnancy.

Is that the only reason that you raised the numbers? None other? I am doubtful because that isn't something that needs backing up. Saying that some abortion follow casual sex is as trivial as saying that some abortions follow car collisions. It is not as trivially obvious as 'grass is green' but it certainly isn't far off.

So, be sure that that is really the only reason you raised the numbers before you commit.

no. There is no special pleading. I only refuse to start pondering about hypothetical issues once I say that abortion kills and casual sex as described in the OP lead to more abortions. It stays my opinion.
But let's dive into the scenarios you presented.

Yes. Special pleading is when one asserts a principle, such as, any decision which can potentially lead to a human death is immoral, then refuses to apply it to all decisions that can potentially lead to a human death. Your refusal to do so is the special pleading. It is a double standard and I reject it on that basis.

1/ does not involve intentional killing

LOL. Of course it did. How do you think that my mother's pregnancies were terminated? Pixies?

2/ the difference to abortion after casual sex: there is no danger to you if you avoid casual sex.

Again, you have a double standard. You are not applying your standard for avoiding sex equally to women who are in a committed relationship, even though those women contribute equally to your problem.

3/ one donor is not accountable to the patient, in my view, since no one should be forced into a treatment concerning their own bodies, I think.

Such as a pregnant woman. And before you try to claim that she is obligated to stay pregnant, I will remind that the donor you are defending is not obligated to continue supporting the other person.

4/ they consent after the fact when they are adult.

You cannot consent after the fact. Consent is necessarily prior. One cannot have sex with with one's minor kid (who is necessarily incapable of providing consent) and then gain consent later when they are an adult. The most one can get later is forgiveness, but the immorality of act is irrevocable.

I say abortion kills on purpose. And noone can rule out that it's humans that get killed.

Then your beef is with abortions, and casual sex is irrelevant to the matter. Doubly irrelevant with committed relationships being an equal contributor to your issue.

 

[ppp]

hahaha. But correlation does not imply causation, please.
Bible belt states are usually comparatively poor ones. I mean comparatively, the US is still a rich country, much wealthier than Germany, for instance.

Religiosity in the US is tied to a higher pregnancy rate across the board.

And having grown up in the Bible Belt as Christian, I know firsthand that fundamentalists lie about contraception; seeking to deride its efficacy and high exaggerate potential side effects in order to raise fears. They ill-prepare their kids for responsible and respectful sex inside marriage, let alone outside. And they terrorize their children by tying any transgression of the rules with fear of being shunned, and shamed and, of course, eventually being tortured in a pit of fire for all eternity. Makes my skin crawl and my blood pressure rise.

 

[exchemist]

How boring.
Me too.

I suppose. I've just never really felt like trying to go to bed with a woman I've only just met. I think the fastest was someone I met on the overnight train from Singapore to Bangkok, who I got talking to, spent the next day and evening with and then spent the night with. But that was a unique event. I always needed to make friends first.

I suspect that is the natural order of things, actually.

 

[ChristineM]

hahaha. But correlation does not imply causation, please.
Bible belt states are usually comparatively poor ones. I mean comparatively, the US is still a rich country, much wealthier than Germany, for instance.

Fact implies fact. I really have no idea why you are introducing wealth to hide behind. Wealthy people have abortions too

 

[ChristineM]

Nope. No hatred here. No idea where you get this stuff. I gave a couple examples in response to the OP. I guess you weren’t paying attention.

I get it from your posts in which you have (at least twice) made derogatory comments about something you obviously have no knowledge of. Whether in false mockery or bigotry i don't know. And yes was paying attention otherwise i would not have commented. Do you want me to quote your posts just in case you have had a lapse of memory?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No. I know a woman who is not religious at all but who would be revolted by the idea of following what your OP suggests. It is in a person naturally a revulsion to anything inappropriate. It is only the sick society and sick people (morally sick) that take away this natural inclination.

It seems you are not aware that the natural inclination of our species, is for the man to leave the wife once the kids are 4-5 years old and then move on to another wife to make more babies. A biological "don't put all your eggs in one basket" to ensure the survival of your genes, as it were.

This is why many relationships turn bad around such times. There's a biological / instinctive trigger there. This is also why at such times, to outsiders it almost looks as if the partners engaged in self-sabotage to make the relationship blow up.

I've read a book about it once (sorry can't remember title or author - it's been quite some time). Very interesting.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Speaking only out of my own views, I would not have sex with someone who was not my girlfriend. But I do not judge those who choose to do different then I do.

Neither would I, but only because I actually have a girlfriend (I call her my wife eventhough we aren't married, but after 23 years, a house, a joined bank account, a joined tax form and 2 kids, it's a bit ridiculous to still call her my "girlfriend").

If you're single, then there are no such commitments to be respected.

There are people who have "open" relationships. And at certain horny times I envy them, but more with a laugh then anything else. I don't think I could actually do it. Not even if I had permission. I'ld feel too guilty to...eum... "perform".

Also, I hate hypocracy. I expect my girld to be loyal, so I expect no less of myself.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If they have casual sex the casual sex is immoral.

Can you explain why that is immoral in an actual real-world argument, which doesn't invoke any religious "commandments"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Neither would I, but only because I actually have a girlfriend (I call her my wife eventhough we aren't married, but after 23 years, a house, a joined bank account, a joined tax form and 2 kids, it's a bit ridiculous to still call her my "girlfriend").

If you're single, then there are no such commitments to be respected.

There are people who have "open" relationships. And at certain horny times I envy them, but more with a laugh then anything else. I don't think I could actually do it. Not even if I had permission. I'ld feel too guilty to...eum... "perform".

Also, I hate hypocracy. I expect my girld to be loyal, so I expect no less of myself.

I am single and I will not have sex before I are in a new relationship. I don't judge other only my self

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's your reasoning that is inadequate. Use your brain. God created it for you to use it.

Then why are you asking people to NOT use said brain?

Check the Abrahamic religions. God forbade it. No, you don't need to know why.

​

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

With an immoral life style "things" do happen. Have you people

"you people". Classic.

ever considered leaving the immoralities and seeing what life without constant sinning is like?

1. i don't subscribe to your nonsensical concept of "sin"

2. assuming your nonsensical concept of "sin", I'ld say life would be pretty boring imo if I'ld do away with all of it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, I'm being told by Atheists that it's basically immoral to cheat in a marriage... What facts or evidence is there that it makes a *real world* difference one way or the other, when marriage is just an imagined concept just like religion. Words on paper... A promise... It's just an imaginary concept not based on facts.

You said it yourself already. It's a promise. Words on paper (ie, a contract).

Breaking your promises and contractual agreements does have real-world consequences, yes.
Violating trust does have real-world consequences, yes.

You seem to assume that atheists are like psychopathic nihilists or something of the sort.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Humans are real... relationships are real... But marriages are abstract thoughts that are imaginary.

Marriage is a typeof relationship.
If relationships are real, then it follows that marriages are just as real.

Contracts are real too. So are promisses and violations of trust.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Your standards of morality?

We don't make up standards of morality. We hear what God says. You are free to do that too, but you'd rather invent something that allows you to do whatever you want.

No, that's not how humanistic / secular morality comes about.

In humanistic / secular morality, you need to actually provide a reason for why something is moral or immoral. It requires a reasoned argument. Otherwise, morality is just arbitrary.

This is why I asked you to explain why casual sex between single consenting adults is immoral, without invoking your religious commadments. To expose the fact that its just arbitrary as it is nothing but obedience to a perceived authority. If your authority says that infantacide is moral, then it is moral.

That's not morality. That's moral bankrupcy.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You misrepresent my words. No. I will not apologise for saying what I think in a discussion such as this.

According to your words you do commit sin according the Abrahamic faiths. Now you are free to do whatever you want, but in Islam what you say you do/would do/what you think is okay to do, is wrong, sinful, immoral — Immoral lifestyle.

Could it be that people who lead an immoral lifestyle cannot bear it if their values/norms/habits are questioned?

Could that be because they are ashamed because deep down they know that they do wrong?

Why should their moral "standards" be accepted without sound reasoning? What gives them the authority over others? How is it okay for them to do all kinds of sin in front of us and claim a moral high ground just because?

YOU are the one who accepts "moral standards" without sound reasoning. As YOUR idea of a moral standard is nothing more or less then obedience to a perceived authority.

You can prove me wrong by explaining exactly how and why casual sex between two consenting single adults is immoral without invoking your religious dogma's and with an actual reasoned argument.

But you can't do it, can you?

All you got is "because I believe this god I believe in said so".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

...But my whole situation was a simulated exercise to begin with. I've never actually had gay sex, or any sex outside my marriage. It was just an exercise to discover the depths of atheism, and how far it goes... And I see it can go quite far.

That's an exercise in futility, because atheism is a single position on a single issue. It does not come with a moral framework or doctrine or alike.

You can ask 100 atheists that quesiton and you might get 100 different answers.

 

[Cooky]

That's an exercise in futility, because atheism is a single position on a single issue. It does not come with a moral framework or doctrine or alike.

You can ask 100 atheists that quesiton and you might get 100 different answers.

You seem to assume that atheists are like psychopathic nihilists or something of the sort.

Are you suggesting there is no Atheist worldview? But at the same time, you suggest "promises" are worthy of respect?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think he made a really good point — if I understood it at all. Atheists do borrow the diluted moral standards of the Christians but refuse to admit it.

No.

These "moral standards of the christians" you speak of, aren't exclusive to christianity at all.

Let's take an easy one: don't murder.

Can you point me to any culture on the planet, where people are allowed to run around and murder whomever they please? Off course you can't. And if you can - which I doubt -, that culture likely was very shortlived for obvious reasons.

Not all christian "morals and rules" found in the bible actually originate in christianity, nore are they exclusive to it.



Having said that, a good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from.

Hitler invented the autobahn (= the highway) to be able to quickly move his army around. That doesn't make all nations that since then have build a network of highways "nazi's" or "borrowing from nazi culture".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And at what age would you advise your daughter to do what the OP proposes — Seeing as there is no "harm" in casual sex?

I'ld never "advice" or otherwise put my nose into my daughter's sex life, except by telling her that she should never do something against her will and that it should always be her own decision. But that goes for everything in life - not just sex.

Instead, I just do my best to raise her as best I can into a responsible adult that can make informed decisions with hopefully good people skills and a good sense of judge of character.

I can't stop her from having sex with anyone, short of chaining her up in her room.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yours or others?

Everyone's.