What is marriage?

[muhammad_isa]

Hey, you're the one who commenced this by stating that marriage is a meaningless institution in a secular setting..

Well, apart from sorting out financial tussles, what purpose does it serve?
Why are so many people not getting married any more?

 

[an anarchist]

Good men are for good women, and bad men are for bad women.
We make our choices..

Woah...

You are insinuating that women in abusive relationships are at fault, for "being bad" or "making the wrong choice"?

Some serious victim blaming in my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are insinuating that women in abusive relationships are at fault, for "being bad" or "making the wrong choice"?

We live and learn.
Those who turn away from what Almighty God has revealed,
do not judge faith to be important.
..so what do they seek?

Are you suggesting that a significant amount of men who are religious would be unkind to their wives?
I don't think that the Bible or Qur'an would support that.

Assault is more associated with ignorance.

 

[an anarchist]

We live and learn.

This doesn't clarify your position in my opinion.

Those who turn away from what Almighty God has revealed,
do not judge faith to be important

???

..so what do they seek?

You tell me. Who are we even talking about? The victim (the woman in an abusive relationship)?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who are we even talking about?

..or what are we even talking about?

Some people would rather not marry a person without faith.
A person with faith is much less likely to assault their wife, imo.

In any case, this idea of a man "raping his wife" being prosecuted
is a secular idea, It relies on the idea that marriage is irrelevant as to consent.

I am fully aware that there is a "competition" between sexes for power in modern society. No good comes from that.

 

[an anarchist]

A person with faith is much less likely to assault their wife, imo.

...

Interesting thread idea.

I fully disagree with you here.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I fully disagree with you here.

Why?

 

[an anarchist]

Why?

Non believers aren't necessarily immoral creatures, though you may disagree. An atheist is just as moral as a believer, as faith isn't necessarily a part in ones morality.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, apart from sorting out financial tussles, what purpose does it serve?

I can speak only for myself. Apart from having some impact on legalities (not just 'financial'), It was a public commitment to each other, and included vows we'd both agreed to around what that commitment entailed. We'd been committed and monogamous before marriage, but this spoke to the future.

Why are so many people not getting married any more?

Because of a lack of compulsion? In any case, I'm not about to try and justify what other people do.

You still seem to have avoided directly answering my question on rape, but you appear to believe rape can't happen by definition within marriage, and that marriage therefore implies some level of control or ownership. I strongly disagree with that, but even at an academic level it might be worth considering why people willingly and commonly enter into inequitable unions where a level of ownership is conferred.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

..not from a secular viewpoint, no.

Not form any point of view.
You made the claim that marriage protects the family.
I asked how.

Your answer to that should consist of an actual explanation of how it protects the family.
Citing from books does not accomplish that.

That is why I said that marriage doesn't serve any useful purpose, in a secular society. It is based on a religious institution.

The very post you are replying to informed you that all cultures have a concept of marriage. Both religious and non-religious. Religion does not have a monopoly on marriage.

Meanwhile, still no actual explanation of how marriage protects the family in a way that can't be accomplished without marriage.

Cheating? Is that how you see it?
I am not monogamous. I am a Muslim male.

Doesn't matter.

Cheating by definition is the one sided secret breaking of agreements.
Even ff you are in a group relationship with 3 husbands and 8 wives, and you all have an agreement that you only have sex among yourselves, then you cheat if you have sex with someone outside of that group.

If a monogamous couple goes to swinger clubs with the agreement to only ever have sex with others under that context, with explicit mutual consent... then you are a cheater if you have sex without someone else outside of those parameters.


I submit that what protects families is open communication among the partners and clear boundaries and then having the loyalty and respect to not cross those boundaries. To put it in the most generic terms I can think of.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You want to know how it protects women from rape?

First of all, you would need to define it...

"Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent."
- wiki -

To police rape, one needs to prove that the sexual assault has taken place.
In a religious community, marriage implicitly means that there is consent between them.
It is therefore much easier for the police to prosecute, as in an Abrahamic society, sexual activity outside of marriage is not permitted.

Wauw............. just............ wauw.............

So it "protects" women from rape simply by deciding FOR those people that sex within marriage is by definition not rape (WHAT????) and that sex outside of marriage is by definition rape (WHAT?????)


Congratulations. You just raped the word "rape".

This is really unsettling.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No .. it's not.
It is illegal, punishable, sexual intercourse.
Not something that is worth the risk .. in a religiously strict society.

Obviously, lots of people like their freedom .. even freedom to commit evils of various natures.
In the long run, evil does not make for a stable society.

-Looks at the stability of sexular democracies-
-Looks at the stability of theocratic hellholes-



I'm inclined to disagree.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What are you saying?
Rape is a sexual assault against another.
I am fully aware that in a secular society, it is all about consent, and marriage is optional.

That is because marriage is not respected any more, as a religious institution.
If two people get married and take religious vows, they give consent to each other. End of ! They are LAWFULLY wed.

You are speaking against marriage .. that's all.

And people wonder how come women are so oppressed in theocracies.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

T
A woman who is raped by a stranger in the park and a woman who says "no thanks" to her husband is clearly a different issue.

It's not that different.

And I'll add that to the point that it is different, I would say it is WORSE when it is the husband.
That's the guy who is supposed to love and respect you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, apart from sorting out financial tussles, what purpose does it serve?
Why are so many people not getting married any more?

maybe women no longer want to put themselves in a position where a man can legally rape her any time she wants.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Some people would rather not marry a person without faith.

Funny. I wouldn't want to marry a person with faith. Or even date a person with faith.
Well, I should nuance that... A person with faith where that faith dominates certain of their life choices.
Faith with actual detectable impact on their lives.

I couldn't deal with that.

A person with faith is much less likely to assault their wife, imo.

As a person without faith, I can tell you that in my life I have raped all the women that I wanted to rape.
And that number is exactly zero.

In any case, this idea of a man "raping his wife" being prosecuted
is a secular idea

Yes. We don't expect to find such superior moral values in ancient cultures where women were treated primarily as breeding vessels and "exchange".

, It relies on the idea that marriage is irrelevant as to consent.

Which it is.
Being married doesn't mean you get to throw yourself at her any time you wish regardless of what she thinks.

I am fully aware that there is a "competition" between sexes for power in modern society. No good comes from that.

Right, right....

Because women expecting not to be treated as a sex slave by their husbands, of all people - the very men that are supposed to love and respect them, is part of a competition for "power".


/facepalm

 

[muhammad_isa]

Right, right....

Because women expecting not to be treated as a sex slave by their husbands, of all people - the very men that are supposed to love and respect them, is part of a competition for "power".

You are not even a woman .. they can speak for themselves.

 

[an anarchist]

You are not even a woman .. they can speak for themselves.

Well I'm sure most woman would agree that they don't want to be treated like a sex slave. A safe assumption.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well I'm sure most woman would agree that they don't want to be treated like a sex slave..

They might .. in the bedroom.

 

[an anarchist]

They might .. in the bedroom.

Bro what the hell spousal rape is a serious issue.
A weird comment to make.