What is Mind?

[Willamena]

"When will then be now?"

Never.

Well, if you've seen the movie, then you'd have at least one concept by which the line could be true.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

What is mind? Is there any evidence for the notion that mind is separate from and not dependent on the brain? Why or why not?

Quite the conundrum. To say mind is an “emergent property” of matter explains nothing. For how does an emergent property of a electrochemical mechanism reflect back on its cause and effect change in its structure by changing its thoughts? If mind is dependent on the physical but not determined by it, only effecting change by touching upon the mechanism that generates it, it is essentially something immaterial effecting change in the material world.

The materialist is obligated to explain all this in mechanistic terms.

 

[Willamena]

For how does an emergent property of a electrochemical mechanism reflect back on its cause and effect change in its structure by changing its thoughts?

Must it? Couldn't those changes in structure be viewed as the changes in the emergent property? Or even (also) could they be the "emergent property" in itself?

If mind is dependent on the physical but not determined by it, only effecting change by touching upon the mechanism that generates it, it is essentially something immaterial effecting change in the material world.

The materialist is obligated to explain all this in mechanistic terms.

And if mind is not determined by the physical, but is not separate from the physical, and in no way distinguishable form the physical, then whether touching upon mechanism or "touching" metaphorically with mind, the same effect would occur.

The materialist is only required to explain things in material terms. Thank God there are no true materialists.

 

[Troublemane]

While its conceivable there is a synchonistic relationship, I have to agree that there is a major pre-requisite for having conscious awareness, and that is to have a brain with sensory apparatus intact. You can be conscious and not have any senses available (loss of sight, hearing, touch,etc.) but then you'd lack awareness. Also, you can have basic forms of life (bacteria, e.g.) with awareness, but little consciousness. So to have both you have to at least have a cerebral cortex and some sensory capacity to qualify for human-level conscious awareness. Now, even in the individual person, conscious awareness is not a constant--we fall asleep, we may pass out from fatigue, injury or lack of oxygen, whatever. We do not experience consciousness when blood flow to the brain ceases. This is just common knowledge.

What is also known, not widely spoken about, however, is there is growing evidence in the medical community of NDE's where people undergoing surgery have reported out of body experiences, and have watched their own sugery taking place. They have related information later that they could not have seen during the surgery (due to their face being covered, or for other reasons). Very often these experiencers report flying to visit friends and family before going down the "tunnel of light" toward a big, warm welcoming light, ....and you know the rest. Forget the fact that these people were reporting accurate details of the surgery or what their friends were doing at that time. In my mind, Its pretty freakin incredible they were able to have any conscious thoughts at all. it shouldnt be possible, with no blood flow to the brain, no brainwave activity, and they were having an experience. I cannot explain it. The only possible explaination I have is somehow, there is a nonlocal aspect of self, perhaps some sort of energy body which is always there but we have no conscious awareness of because its usually so faint. but when we die, and all brainwave activity stops, then this quiet thing, this pure awareness, no longer has anything interfering with it. then its free, and we find ourselves in a most unusual state.

I imagine after death my first thought shall be ..."Crud! I wish i'd listened to my books on tape version of the bardo thodol!":angel2:

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Must it? Couldn't those changes in structure be viewed as the changes in the emergent property? Or even (also) could they be the "emergent property" in itself?


And if mind is not determined by the physical, but is not separate from the physical, and in no way distinguishable form the physical, then whether touching upon mechanism or "touching" metaphorically with mind, the same effect would occur.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about a purely monistic view? If so, which form? Materialistic or idealistic? (I assume its the latter.) Both are problematic in my view.

The materialist is only required to explain things in material terms. Thank God there are no true materialists.

Yeah, but it's fun watching people pretend they believe matter is the bottom line.

I agree with you, Troublemane, but "rationalists" are prone to dismiss anecdotal information as "unsubstantiated” and “delusional.” It's easier than facing life on its own terms,

 

[WhiteSeal]

For one thing, mind is a noun and requires and article to be placed before it, namely the. THE MIND is what the brain has in it. If you've lost your mind, it's no longer working right. If you're out of your mind, this also means your mind is broken. If your mind is weak, you're an idiot, if your mind died you're probably either in a PVS or dead. The mind is that important part of you that, if you lose, you become a vegetable and, if you break it, become a physcopath.

 

[Da Troof]

Mind = Brain thats it, no more discussion necessary. Anyone who cannot grasp this just doesn't understand what a brain is.

 

[Magic Man]

Mind = Brain thats it, no more discussion necessary. Anyone who cannot grasp this just doesn't understand what a brain is.

Phew! Thank God! All of us morons were waiting for some intelligent person to come in here, and explain everything to us. Thank you so much! Now we can move on with our lives. In the future, I'll remember to just come to you with any questions since you know everything so clearly.

 

[Da Troof]

Phew! Thank God! All of us morons were waiting for some intelligent person to come in here, and explain everything to us. Thank you so much! Now we can move on with our lives. In the future, I'll remember to just come to you with any questions since you know everything so clearly.

Thank you so much. Da Troof is always easy to understand.

Of course I could write hundreds of pages explaining why Mind = Brain, but would any of you read it?

by the way don't thank God, there is no such thing!

 

[logician]

While its conceivable there is a synchonistic relationship, I have to agree that there is a major pre-requisite for having conscious awareness, and that is to have a brain with sensory apparatus intact. You can be conscious and not have any senses available (loss of sight, hearing, touch,etc.) but then you'd lack awareness. Also, you can have basic forms of life (bacteria, e.g.) with awareness, but little consciousness. So to have both you have to at least have a cerebral cortex and some sensory capacity to qualify for human-level conscious awareness. Now, even in the individual person, conscious awareness is not a constant--we fall asleep, we may pass out from fatigue, injury or lack of oxygen, whatever. We do not experience consciousness when blood flow to the brain ceases. This is just common knowledge.

What is also known, not widely spoken about, however, is there is growing evidence in the medical community of NDE's where people undergoing surgery have reported out of body experiences, and have watched their own sugery taking place. They have related information later that they could not have seen during the surgery (due to their face being covered, or for other reasons). Very often these experiencers report flying to visit friends and family before going down the "tunnel of light" toward a big, warm welcoming light, ....and you know the rest. Forget the fact that these people were reporting accurate details of the surgery or what their friends were doing at that time. In my mind, Its pretty freakin incredible they were able to have any conscious thoughts at all. it shouldnt be possible, with no blood flow to the brain, no brainwave activity, and they were having an experience. I cannot explain it. The only possible explaination I have is somehow, there is a nonlocal aspect of self, perhaps some sort of energy body which is always there but we have no conscious awareness of because its usually so faint. but when we die, and all brainwave activity stops, then this quiet thing, this pure awareness, no longer has anything interfering with it. then its free, and we find ourselves in a most unusual state.

I imagine after death my first thought shall be ..."Crud! I wish i'd listened to my books on tape version of the bardo thodol!":angel2:

I don't believe there are true scientific experiments that have shown that these experiences are "authentic", i.e. putting words on top of cabinets, the patients could not identify the words while "floating" in the air. Again, the brain is capable of many hallucinations under tremendous stress (or drugs).

 

[WhiteSeal]

Mind = Brain thats it, no more discussion necessary. Anyone who cannot grasp this just doesn't understand what a brain is.

Well that's mostly right. The Mind is more of what the brain does, since brains can stop working, minds can't. When the mind stops working, your brain becomes a lump of greyish-pinkish jelly that doesn't do anything.

 

[Escéptico]

When the mind stops working, your brain becomes a lump of greyish-pinkish jelly that doesn't do anything.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I don't believe there are true scientific experiments that have shown that these experiences are "authentic", i.e. putting words on top of cabinets, the patients could not identify the words while "floating" in the air. Again, the brain is capable of many hallucinations under tremendous stress (or drugs).

What did I tell ya, Troublemane?

 

[Da Troof]

Well that's mostly right. The Mind is more of what the brain does, since brains can stop working, minds can't. When the mind stops working, your brain becomes a lump of greyish-pinkish jelly that doesn't do anything.

I agree except your last sentence should read:

When the brain stops working, it becomes a lump of greyish-pinkish jelly that doesn't do anything.

Perhaps I should restate my equation more correctly

Mind= working brain

 

[Willamena]

I agree except your last sentence should read:

When the brain stops working, it becomes a lump of greyish-pinkish jelly that doesn't do anything.

Perhaps I should restate my equation more correctly

Mind= working brain

And "working" implies more than "nonworking" brain, right. It implies activity, function, use.

 

[Da Troof]

And "working" implies more than "nonworking" brain, right. It implies activity, function, use.

Yes thats right, but it doesn't imply any kind of spirit/soul. A working computer/car/radio/steamtrain etc etc doesn't need a spirit/soul.

 

[sandandfoam]

Perhaps I should restate my equation more correctly

Mind= working brain

Where has this been established scientifically ?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Yes thats right, but it doesn't imply any kind of spirit/soul. A working computer/car/radio/steamtrain etc etc doesn't need a spirit/soul.

Yet, they get one anyway.

 

[Da Troof]

Where has this been established scientifically ?

Just read any neuroscience journal and you will find many examples.

Perhaps you should be asking why there is no case anywhere anytime of someones mind being affected without their brain being altered (permanently or temporarily) in some way.