What Is Proselytizing?

[February-Saturday]

Considering how you interpret the term...
Wouldn't saying that life is worth living, as a definitive fact, to someone that is about to suicide, trying therefore to convince them to don't kill themselves count as proselytism?

Sort of. It's normally not a very useful way to talk somebody down from suicide, in my experience, precisely because it's taken as preachy and taking too definitive of a stance on their experiences. Mental illness affects everyone differently, I don't think that's a universal rule, but I've never met somebody on suicide watch that wanted to be told that life is worth living. There probably are a few, of course; I've just never met them.

Most of the ones I've spoken to often already think life is worth living, but are having a hard time coping with living it and fall into understandable fatalism through their failures, low self-esteem, anxieties, etc. Sometimes telling them that life is worth living might, paradoxically, stress them out more and be counter-productive. You really have to listen to somebody on that edge carefully and I think proselyting is probably the last technique you would want to try.

I had a conversation with a hostage negotiator awhile back and they said the same general rule applies there, too.

I know that's sort of tangential, but I thought it was important to note.

 

[Koldo]

Sort of. It's normally not a very useful way to talk somebody down from suicide, in my experience, precisely because it's taken as preachy and taking too definitive of a stance on their experiences. Mental illness affects everyone differently, I don't think that's a universal rule, but I've never met somebody on suicide watch that wanted to be told that life is worth living. There probably are a few, of course; I've just never met them.

Most of the ones I've spoken to often already think life is worth living, but are having a hard time coping with living it and fall into understandable fatalism through their failures, low self-esteem, anxieties, etc. Sometimes telling them that life is worth living might, paradoxically, stress them out more and be counter-productive. You really have to listen to somebody on that edge carefully and I think proselyting is probably the last technique you would want to try.

I had a conversation with a hostage negotiator awhile back and they said the same general rule applies there, too.

I know that's sort of tangential, but I thought it was important to note.

No matter what you say, you would still have to convince them not to suicide. And if that is proselytism I don't see any problem with this kind of proselytism.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I used the dictionary definition of 'proselytizing,' not my interpretation of the meaning of the word.

Ignored the possibility that it could come down to a difference in the inference on intent? Inference of intent based on what? It was a narrative. There was nothing that I could see to infer.

I see the dictionary definition would not allow a debate section on RF. A debate is aimed at showing the Truth of a point of view on the topic discussed.

Thus as a Baha'i I would be putting the Baha'i teaching forward as that proof to which in the dictionary definition, is proselytizing, but is also the aim of the debate.

"The aim of a debate is to convince the opposition that you are right. When the two sides agree on the subject or when one side's arguments are more convincing than the other side that is when the debate
comes to a close."

Thus proselytizing has a wider meaning in the Baha'i Writings, stated as this:

" It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. ...Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion."

That duty I see is found in all the worlds faiths, even to teach one's self first.

But I see it is not Proselytizing as there is no intention to convert, the intention is to only deliver the point of view.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

No matter what you say, you would still have to convince them not to suicide. And if that is proselytism I don't see any problem with this kind of proselytism.

I've heard the 'if someone were thinking of suicide' (wouldn't you want someone to talk to them) argument before, relating it to proselytising. It falls apart, as 99.9% of people who are being proselytised to are nowhere near suicide, or even close. It takes an extreme example and projects it out to normal life as if it were comparable. Being of a different faith isn't committing suicide, although some folks, out of their deluded notion of 'love' project that it is. So they figure they're 'SAVING' you. It's laughable, and sad.

 

[Koldo]

I've heard the 'if someone were thinking of suicide' (wouldn't you want someone to talk to them) argument before, relating it to proselytising. It falls apart, as 99.9% of people who are being proselytised to are nowhere near suicide, or even close. It takes an extreme example and projects it out to normal life as if it were comparable. Being of a different faith isn't committing suicide, although some folks, out of their deluded notion of 'love' project that it is. So they figure they're 'SAVING' you. It's laughable, and sad.

I am not sure why you are talking this to me. I don't consider convincing someone to refrain from suicide a form of proselytism. Further up on this topic I have elaborated on what I consider this term to mean.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am not sure why you are talking this to me. I don't consider convincing someone to refrain from suicide a form of proselytism. Further up on this topic I have elaborated on what I consider this term to mean.

Neither do I. It was an example of a false comparison. Feel free to ignore me.

 

[Terry Sampson]

For the record:
"Proselyting Buddhists, however, found their way from India and brought civilization with them."
"Travels in the Far East" by Ellen Mary Hayes Peck.

So, ... the Buddhists started it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Direct proselytising is easy to determine as there is no reading between the lines. The intent is clear. In all the other variations, and techniques, it's tougher to determine, and takes time and a keen observation.

A person may well be nice to you, with no ulterior motives. He/she may also be there pretending, just to convert you. Nobody here is a mind reader, so it takes awhile to determine motive.

And of course you know what another person's motives are?
Why is it so important to know other people's motives?

I do not believe you can ever know what another person's motives are, unless that person tells you what they are. But of course that because I believe what Baha'u'llah said coupled with knowledge of basic psychology.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

I have been in and out of counseling for 35 years and no counselor or psychologist or psychiatrist ever told me me what my motives were. Rather, they asked me what my motives were and they believed me when I told them. Unless a person is mentally ill, no other person can know their motives better than they know them.

I am also a licensed counselor and it is considered unethical to tell a client what their motives are because that is a personal boundary violation.

 

[Vinayaka]

For the record:
"Proselyting Buddhists, however, found their way from India and brought civilization with them."
"Travels in the Far East" by Ellen Mary Hayes Peck.

So, ... the Buddhists started it.

Naah. Some cave man said, "I've got a better cave than you! You should make your cave like mine." He said it with gusto!

 

[Trailblazer]

It's important to remember that not everyone is wired like you. There are those that are deeply offended by attempts at conversion. I suspect this is primarily why the rule exists.

I would not say I am offended, but I am annoyed by a certain Christian who keeps telling me that I am going to hell just because I believe in a different version of Jesus and because I do not believe that Jesus rose from the grave. This is on another forum where there is no rule against proselytizing. I keep telling him that I am not a convertible, I am a hardtop, but he will keep posting to me unsolicited. I know his heart is in the right place because he really believes he could save me from hell if only I would listen.

Now that is proselytizing, but if I respond with what I believe that is not proselytizing.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think we're ignoring the title of the thread. The OP is stating he's confused and asking for help in understanding his experience.

And why would he make all that up to gain converts?
Converts to what?
It does not even make any sense to think he was proselytizing.

Imo, the important thing is not to question a person's sincerity, not unless there is a very good reason to do so.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well he is spreading his message:

So is everybody on this forum.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So is everybody on this forum.

What message am I trying to spread?

 

[Trailblazer]

What message am I trying to spread?

Sorry, that came out wrong.....
I meant that everyone is sharing their opinions and/or beliefs, not that they have a particular message.

But what is wrong with people sharing their religious beliefs? After all, this is a religious forum. If people do not want to read anything about religious beliefs maybe they should not come to a religious forum.

If nobody shared anything about their religion, what would be posted?
Are we going to talk about politics? Maybe we can talk about how God does not exist?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I hate to think of the damage it would have been to me when I first shared my experience when I was 18 trying to make sense of it, to be met by cynics who either dismissed me as insincere (which you did with the OP), or called me crazy, or ridiculed me, etc.

OP is 63 years of age.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. ...Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion."

Yeah, he does what all other One God religions do, nothing special. Christians are obliged to take the good news to all world and the Muslims are obliged to make Dawa. That is what results in conflict and strife. It is what the founders of these religions want, more sales, not that any God or Allah desires it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, he does what all other One God religions do, nothing special. Christians are obliged to take the good news to all world and the Muslims are obliged to make Dawa. That is what results in conflict and strife. It is what the founders of these religions want, more sales, not that any God or Allah desires it.

It is never for sale, there is no compulsion in religion.

Regards Tony

 

[Windwalker]

OP is 63 years of age.

I was fortunate to have that experience at 18, instead of later in life. That said however, the OP appears to suffer from delusions. Another prophet sent from God.

FYI, I'm around that age, and only now am I beginning to touch what I experienced at 18. Age is nothing. Being in the right place to realize it, is everything.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Is it not the case that many religious beliefs are at an advantage over any non-belief, in that one often cannot prove personal experiences to be perhaps illusions, delusions, genuine mistakes, or deliberate falsehoods - regarding mystical or religious experiences - and more so regarding the past, such that often they have an undue effect on those more susceptible to such? This is where the believers and non-believers diverge - in that the latter will require some evidence in support, or whatever cited usually just gets binned, as most anecdotal evidence tends to be or at least lodged in the 'unknown' or 'unproven' category. It's not proselytising in the true sense but perhaps it is taking advantage of the nature of doubt.

 

[Secret Chief]

For the record:
"Proselyting Buddhists, however, found their way from India and brought civilization with them."
"Travels in the Far East" by Ellen Mary Hayes Peck.

So, ... the Buddhists started it.

A 160 page travelogue, published in 1908, covering Egypt, Northern India, Burma, Southern India, Ceylon, Malay Peninsula, Java, Siam, Southern China, Japan, Northern China, Manchuria, and Korea.

So... nothing for the record. Proselytising has existed since there existed two opinions.