What Is 'Real?'

[allfoak]

Is it not true that everything believed to be true, must in some way be true?
Does not belief have its way with people as if it is truth?
God said it, I believe it, therefore it must be true.
Is that not the truth?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is it not true that everything believed to be true, must in some way be true?
Does not belief have its way with people as if it is truth?
God said it, I believe it, therefore it must be true.
Is that not the truth?

The operative part is "in some way". That doesn't mean in all ways.

 

[Nakosis]

And then you use a different version than the only you gave before.

Not really. For example, we can't touch gravity. We know of its existence because of its effect on physical objects.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not really. For example, we can't touch gravity. We know of its existence because of its effect on physical objects.

Yeah, but gravity is not everything/reality/the world/the universe. What you did in effect was to give a rule about what kind of behavior you find correct. That is all. Go back and re-read. It is a rule about behavior and which behavior is correct. But it is not the only human behavior and thus I can do behavior, which not is physical.

Science is a limited set of human behavior. You can observe scientists and as humans they don't only do scientific behavior. It is that simple.

 

[QuestioningMind]

In short, for a specific version of a Boltzmann Brain Universe, you could be Superman.

Guess I better make sure I'm in the Boltzmann Brain Universe before jumping off that cliff, huh? So how do I get there? Just click my heels together three times?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Guess I better make sure I'm in the Boltzmann Brain Universe before jumping off that cliff, huh? So how do I get there? Just click my heels together three times?

You don't get there. You are either in one or another universe/reality.

But I will circle back. Here is my life's story. I wan born on a cliff and all I do, is to consider to jump off and test if I can fly or not. That is all all of reality is.

 

[Nakosis]

Yeah, but gravity is not everything/reality/the world/the universe. What you did in effect was to give a rule about what kind of behavior you find correct. That is all. Go back and re-read. It is a rule about behavior and which behavior is correct. But it is not the only human behavior and thus I can do behavior, which not is physical.

What behavior is not physical?

Science is a limited set of human behavior. You can observe scientists and as humans they don't only do scientific behavior. It is that simple.

Yes, science, its main purpose is to as much as possible, eliminate error in belief. Anyone can make observations. Anyone can come up with a theory about what they observe. Most of the time a theory only needs to work consistently to be accepted. Most theories don't get scientifically tested.

 

[Ponder This]

So you have solved epistemological solipsism?

Did I? Wow, I'm good! Make sure to credit me by referencing my RF post!

Seriously though, I just addressed the definition problem of solipsism not the epistemic problem.
Is that enough to make solipsism collapse? Does it follow that reality exists (we can be sure it exists as oppose to not sure if it exists) despite our inability to discern the real from the imaginary?
Is epistemological solipsism incoherent? That is to say: it talks about things without defining what those things are and therefore fails logically?

 

[QuestioningMind]

You don't get there. You are either in one or another universe/reality.

But I will circle back. Here is my life's story. I wan born on a cliff and all I do, is to consider to jump off and test if I can fly or not. That is all all of reality is.

I guess if those are the rules for the game you're in then you don't have any real choice, do you?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I guess if those are the rules for the game you're in then you don't have any real choice, do you?

You do know what in the broad sense a reductio ad absurdum is and not just the narrow logical sense?

 

[QuestioningMind]

You do know what in the broad sense a reductio ad absurdum is and not just the narrow logical sense?

You'll need to write a complete and comprehensible sentence before I can tell you whether or not I know it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You'll need to write a complete and comprehensible sentence before I can tell you whether or not I know it.

Is gravity everything? Or is gravity a part of everything and not everything in reality?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Did I? Wow, I'm good! Make sure to credit me by referencing my RF post!

Seriously though, I just addressed the definition problem of solipsism not the epistemic problem.
Is that enough to make solipsism collapse? Does it follow that reality exists (we can be sure it exists as oppose to not sure if it exists) despite our inability to discern the real from the imaginary?
Is epistemological solipsism incoherent? That is to say: it talks about things without defining what those things are and therefore fails logically?

Well, the things are defined as having reality independent of the mind. If you think that doesn't work, and therefore the things are not really defined, then tell me your definition.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Is gravity everything? Or is gravity a part of everything and not everything in reality?

Gravity is but one component of the reality I find myself in. Why do you ask?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Gravity is but one component of the reality I find myself in. Why do you ask?

If you read what I wrote you'd see that I never claimed to have a definition of reality. I started off stating that it's quite possible that we're incapable of knowing what TRUE reality is, but given the fact that we're stuck in whatever 'game' or 'dream' this might be, we have no real choice but to play by the game's rules. And in THIS particular 'game' the Google definition applies. So in 'this game' gravity is REAL and even if it IS just a game, if you step off a cliff you'll fall and 'die'. Because simply pretending to KNOW that this is all a game doesn't mean you suddenly have the ability to fly through the air life Superman.

Is your example all there is to the "game" or "dream"?

And no, the Google definition doesn't apply. The imagine or supposed can influence other parts of the "game" or "dream".

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What behavior is not physical?



Yes, science, its main purpose is to as much as possible, eliminate error in belief. Anyone can make observations. Anyone can come up with a theory about what they observe. Most of the time a theory only needs to work consistently to be accepted. Most theories don't get scientifically tested.

Your rule for that all behavior is physical behavior, is itself mental behavior. Your mental rule and behavior is than only physical behavior is correct. Correct is not physical, it is mental.

 

[chinu]

In another (non-debate) thread, it was asked what 'real' is. A response to that question was the Google dictionary definition, "actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed."

How can one be certain something is real given that definition? I'm fairly certain nearly everyone has had dreams that, while dreaming, they thought were real until they awoke.

What one perceives is merely a model resulting from sense organs that create electrical signals as interpreted by the brain. How can one trust that these are, indeed, real?
How do you know you won't wake up from this reality into a 'real' one?

There’s NO Google to confirm in ‘real one

 

[Nakosis]

Your rule for that all behavior is physical behavior, is itself mental behavior. Your mental rule and behavior is than only physical behavior is correct. Correct is not physical, it is mental.

Mental behavior is physical activity of the brain.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Mental behavior is physical activity of the brain.

Please observe the meaning of your post only using pure observation through external senses and scientifically calibrated instruments.

 

[shunyadragon]

Says you.
So let play many worlds and reality. "I am now insane and live in my own world of unreal beliefs and what not. I now think that my neighbor is trying to kill me, so I kill my neighbor." Where do insane people live and what they do, happens where?

BTW "Individuals do not necessarily define reality,..." So your "we" of science define reality and as you subjectively say: That is reality. What would you characterize a person as, who doesn't believe, that insane people are not a part of reality?

No games to play in your quest to justify your agenda. Reality is not a game.