What is Right With Islam?

[Papoon]

Islam makes you think. Really hard.

Makes you think of what could possibly be positive about it, which could not be achieved without Islam.

The same for Christianity and the rest, of course, I am quite ecumenic about that.

Ciao

- viole

Good post.
Considering Islam forced me to resolve how I feel about life, religion and personal responsibility.

It clarified the situation for me.
I resolved to live according to my own heart, my own conscience,

 

[Smart_Guy]

So this one may sound weird but I find a lot of respect in Muhammad's rules for war. Now I have not read the Quran so all of what I am about to say comes from my college world religions course so PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. But from what I understand Muhammad had certain rules of engagement where holy cites and other building should be be destroyed, farm lands are to be left untouched, you do not attack women and child (at the time innocent civilians basically), do not torture captured soldiers. War sucks and I wish it didn't exist but it does, and it is nice to see a prophet look at this terrible necessity and say "This is terrible, but ultimately needed. BUT we can still do it in a civilized way, and not act like animals." I kind of like that.

Yes, it is true. I'm Muslim and guess what, from a country that many people do not expected to teach the above, Saudi Arabia. I learned it in school here.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is wrong. Islam has a big problem currently with its treatment of the Other. Plus, they have the same problem as Christianity with labeling fellow believes as not "true" believers, like the Ahmadis.

I was strictly talking about Islamic teachings, not what Muslims are currently doing. What I said holds true if we only look at the teachings in the Qur'an itself rather than how Muslims are treating others and each other now.

 

[Kalidas]

Yes, it is true. I'm Muslim and guess what, from a country that many people do not expected to teach the above, Saudi Arabia. I learned it in school here.

Glad to hear I can get something right. I feel Islam and even most Muslims get a real bad rep from a small portion of ****ty people.

 

[Deidre]

Couldn't you incorporate that into your christian practice (aside from the facing toward Mecca aspect, of course)?

Yes, I could actually...

 

[FearGod]

Sorry but, I still don't know what's right with Islam.

If you don't know then listen for what the other says than showing your ignorance,
i appreciate that you admit that you don't know what is right about Islam.

 

[FearGod]

Islam is a false religion that uses the teachings of the Miqra to confuse the masses into worshiping a false prophet and god.

Your evidence?

 

[FearGod]

Serious question. I see so many threads critical of Islam. I'm curious what people think Islam gets right?

Unity and honesty ,in which it doesn't exist in our recent days.

 

[Papoon]

Here is a good example of what I consider the best of Islamic philosophy. From Wikipedia entry 'Active Imagination'. Alam al-mithal.

"The imaginal realm is known in Islamic philosophy as alam al-mithal, the imaginal world. According to Avicenna, the imagination mediated between, and thus unified, human reason and divine being. This mediating quality manifested in two directions: on the one hand, reason, rising above itself, could attain to the level of active imagination, an activity shared with the lower hierarchies of the divine realm. On the other hand, in order to manifest the concrete forms of the world, divinity created a range of intermediate beings, the angelic co-creators of the universe.[1]:11 According to philosophers of this tradition, the trained imagination can access a "nonspatial fabric" which mediates between the empirical/sensory and the cognititional/spiritual realms."

 

[Smart_Guy]

Glad to hear I can get something right. I feel Islam and even most Muslims get a real bad rep from a small portion of ****ty people.

Yes, it is a huge problematic and ignorant trend that people have these days; confusing beliefs with their followers (e.g. Islam and Muslims). We already had many examples here in RF.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, it is a huge problematic and ignorant trend that people have these days; confusing beliefs with their followers (e.g. Islam and Muslims). We already had many examples here in RF.

Not too many, to the best of my understanding, and that is hardly as serious a problem as its opposite number.

People tend to forgive Islaamic doctrine on behalf of some of its followers far too often. I suspect many Muslims do not realize how often.

You should probably thank many Muslims for protecting the image of Islaam - or perhaps blame them for causing a delay of a much-needed confrontation with the reality of the doctrine and its consequences.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Not too many, to the best of my understanding, and that is hardly as serious a problem as its opposite number.

I didn't say too many, I just said many. Are you saying confusing a belief with its followers is not wrong/a problem?

People tend to forgive Islaamic doctrine on behalf of some of its followers far too often. I suspect many Muslims do not realize how often.

Islam does not need anyone's forgiveness. Haters hate and good people are good, and I thank them for deciding to be good. It does not matter what one thinks, as long as it is done right. Example: I helped an old person to cross the street with legal and right methods. Haters are welcome to hate me for it, and I don't care.

Wouldn't that apply with all beliefs/laws/rules/religions/etc.?

You should probably thank many Muslims for protecting the image of Islaam - or perhaps blame them for causing a delay of a much-needed confrontation with the reality of the doctrine and its consequences.

Of course, every one in their right minds should not blame anyone who protects the image of anything, if that protection is done right, not with lies and such.

What is the reality of the doctrine and its consequences you think of, if I may ask? But yes, I do blame those causing a delay of a much-needed confrontation with the reality of the doctrine and its consequences. What about it?

One last thing... if you say all that, do you have the same general thought with other beliefs/laws/rules/religions/etc.? If you don't, wouldn't it be a double standard?

 

[LuisDantas]

I didn't say too many, I just said many. Are you saying confusing a belief with its followers is not wrong/a problem?

No. I am saying that except perhaps for very localized situations it seems to be a problem that is (unfairly) protecting the reputation of Islaam the doctrine as opposed to harming it.

Islaam is followed by lots of well-meaning people. No small number of those complement and correct the doctrine with their own discernment and good will. It is ironic that such an effort is not generally welcomed.

Islam does not need anyone's forgiveness.

I don't think I can agree.

Haters hate and good people are good, and I thank them for deciding to be good. It does not matter what one thinks, as long as it is done right. Example: I helped an old person to cross the street with legal and right methods. Haters are welcome to hate me for it, and I don't care.

Wouldn't that apply with all beliefs/laws/rules/religions/etc.?

It definitely does.

That does not however have very much to do with the situation of Islaam either way.

Of course, every one in their right minds should not blame anyone who protects the image of anything, if that protection is done right, not with lies and such.

I regret to have to disagree again. Omission can misguide as much as active lies do. And not all images deserve to be protected.

What is the reality of the doctrine and its consequences you think of, if I may ask?

Islaam is a doctrine that intends to be a religion, but places way too much emphasis on monotheism and a tribal-thinking encouragement of a sharp division of people in the well-delimited categories of brothers-in-faith vs betrayers, infidels and foreigners.

The main undesirable consequences are that it actively hurts the ability of people to trust those from outside their faith; of building bridges of good trust and mutual understanding; of accepting the reality of diversity of beliefs; and of learning to conquer the hearts and minds of those who do not wish to share their beliefs.

It is simply way too set into telling the believers from the enemies - as if those two qualifiers were naturally opposed, which they are not.

But yes, I do blame those causing a delay of a much-needed confrontation with the reality of the doctrine and its consequences. What about it?

Then I expect you to eventually agree with me a lot more than you currently would hope.

One last thing... if you say all that, do you have the same general thought with other beliefs/laws/rules/religions/etc.? If you don't, wouldn't it be a double standard?

I do apply much the same standards to other belief systems, far as I can tell.

Islaam is truly remarkable in how it stands out in that respect. Some of Christianity comes somewhat close behind, and in some but not all worrisome respects the Bahai Faith might as well be Islaam itself, but other than that Islaam is indeed unique among beliefs. The joining of monotheism, emphasis on revealed scripture, figures of authority and insistence on associating belief with trustworthiness makes for a very unadvisable final result.

Much of Christianity, most of Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Paganism, even Communism and Spiritism - all of those are remarkably better suited to deal with its own most serious doctrinary dangers than Islaam, from all available evidence, even aims to be.

It really IS different.

 

[Smart_Guy]

No. I am saying that except perhaps for very localized situations it seems to be a problem that is (unfairly) protecting the reputation of Islaam the doctrine as opposed to harming it.

Islaam is followed by lots of well-meaning people. No small number of those complement and correct the doctrine with their own discernment and good will. It is ironic that such an effort is not generally welcomed.

I don't think I can agree.

It definitely does.

That does not however have very much to do with the situation of Islaam either way.

I regret to have to disagree again. Omission can misguide as much as active lies do. And not all images deserve to be protected.

Islaam is a doctrine that intends to be a religion, but places way too much emphasis on monotheism and a tribal-thinking encouragement of a sharp division of people in the well-delimited categories of brothers-in-faith vs betrayers, infidels and foreigners.

The main undesirable consequences are that it actively hurts the ability of people to trust those from outside their faith; of building bridges of good trust and mutual understanding; of accepting the reality of diversity of beliefs; and of learning to conquer the hearts and minds of those who do not wish to share their beliefs.

It is simply way too set into telling the believers from the enemies - as if those two qualifiers were naturally opposed, which they are not.

Then I expect you to eventually agree with me a lot more than you currently would hope.

I do apply much the same standards to other belief systems, far as I can tell.

Islaam is truly remarkable in how it stands out in that respect. Some of Christianity comes somewhat close behind, and in some but not all worrisome respects the Bahai Faith might as well be Islaam itself, but other than that Islaam is indeed unique among beliefs. The joining of monotheism, emphasis on revealed scripture, figures of authority and insistence on associating belief with trustworthiness makes for a very unadvisable final result.

Much of Christianity, most of Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Paganism, even Communism and Spiritism - all of those are remarkably better suited to deal with its own most serious doctrinary dangers than Islaam, from all available evidence, even aims to be.

It really IS different.

Cool!

I have a couple of disagreements too, but I got the answers I'm looking for.

Thanks!

 

[Flankerl]

It's monotheistic.

 

[YmirGF]

It's monotheistic.

But, not especially good news for other monotheists.

 

[sun rise]

There are two sides to how Islam is practiced. The positive side is open, welcoming and holding out the hand of peace. The positive side reads sayings like this from Muhammad and tries to practice them - the last being a statement of the Golden Rule.

“What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured.” (Bukhari)

“Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith.” (Muslim)

“I command you to treat women kindly…” (Bukhari)

“No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself.” (Abu Hamza Anas: Bukhari & Muslim)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Review the above comments by non-Muslims

Not good enough. You seem to be pushing the lamb from a lion unto a leopard.

 

[Limo]

Not good enough. You seem to be pushing the lamb from a lion unto a leopard.

Not exactly.
When the testimony comes from non-Muslim, it's neutral.

Your opinion is clear,you see nothing right in Islam.
I'm sure whatever I'd say (even if it's something agrees with Judaism, BTW there are a lot of agreement), you'll reject.

 

[icehorse]

Well since this is in the debate forum I feel compelled to push back a bit...

1 - A couple of times "honesty" has been brought up. I tend not to believe people who proactively tell me how honest they are.

2 - I started making a list of what people mentioned and then gave up about halfway through, for one simple reason:

None of "what's right" goes beyond basic decency and civility. So isn't this all the soft bigotry of low expectations? ("Awww, look at how charitable the cuddly muzzie-wuzzies are...")

If I was a Muslim, I'd be offended by this thread. I understand the intentions were good, but given what Islam claims to represent, this list is nothing special.

Now, I wouldn't care so much if Islam didn't make such big claims for itself. But Islam sets itself up as the perfect and total and final answer - for EVERYONE... Please let that sink in...

This is not some gentle folks with some decent morals. This is a group of folks who present themselves to the world as having the correct lifestyle for all of us. Adherents to this faith want to overturn your legal systems and replace them with Sharia. Adherents to this faith demand that you convert to their belief system (on poor evidence), or they are committed to turning you into second class citizens. (If you disagree with this, please provide me with a reference to a Muslim majority society in which non-believers are not harassed and pressured to leave, but instead are made to feel safe.)

Such ideas (Islam's ideas), demand rigorous scrutiny and criticism.

p.s. Smart_Guy, You seem like a good guy but "no face hitting" really? Are we supposed to be impressed by that?