• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
They are my colleagues, as this is my living (physics, mostly quantum foundations but also statistics of complex systems and statistical physics, data analysis in HEP, etc.). I am not, however, a cosmological. Luckily, however, cosmologists don't try to hide well-known facts. They disagree about many things as we do in physics and the sciences more generally, but it is well-known even by the most hard-core proponents of inflation that the evidence is based on models that require inserting physics we have no evidence of and do not understand (in terms of how these fields could actually work if they existed) to "predict" observations we already made. Later observations that have contradicted inflationary models are taken to be opportunities to create "better" models, while observations that are in general agreement with classes of inflationary models are taken to be confirmation.
This was brought to a head a few years ago when a popular science article prompted an unusual response from inflation proponents. You can read about it and the response of the critics here:
Pop goes the universe

I get the feeling that you don't read the technical literature and probably don't possess the requisite mathematical and physics background to do so, so I won't bother with references or links to such literature (if I've misjudged, though, please feel free to correct me and I can make said literature available for you)

Technically, you are the one arguing with a physicist. But it's ok. I don't mind.

I go by what world renown physicists say. As said, I'm not arrogant enough to argue with them or claim them to be wrong.

Having said that, you seem to be also missing the entire point.

Once again: I was responding to a statement that said that I find it easier to believe in multi-verses then to believe in creation gods. My answer to that was YES, with the qualifier that I don't believe in multi-verses either. Instead, I find it easier to believe in them.

The reason being that they are at least plausible and well-motivated from a foundation in scientific inquiry. Even if it turns out to be wrong.

I'm not interested in the technicalities quite simply because I lack the necessary qualifications.

You can claim that you are a physicist but I can not verify that claim. To me you are just a random anonymous bloke on the interwebs.

And even if you are a physicist - I'm happy to accept it for the sake of argument - that still doesn't change anything about what world renown physicists have to say on this topic.

You can disagree with them and that's fine. We are talking about the very frontiers of scientific knowledge after all, where plenty of unconfirmed - yet well-motivated- hypothesis live.

None of this changes the point I was actually making.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Well, we have been before. All claims beyond that there is an objective reality, but rather what objective reality is other than being independent of the mind are beliefs without truth, proof or evidence. You can do that and so can I. We just do differently.
I just meant humans are not in loss for common objective scenarios which can be discussed philosophically and cosmologically.

If I for instants see an ancient Rock Carving which I recognize as a star constellation, we then can have both a cultural, social, philosophical and cosmological discussion of this without worshipping and discussing semantics only.

image024.orion.atlas.jpg

Atlas, Orion Star Constellation
image023.orion.litsle.frott.jpg

Swedish Rock Art Orion Constellation from the Bronze Age. (Charcoal rubbing image from the cliff surface)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I just meant humans are not in loss for common objective scenarios which can be discussed philosophically and cosmologically.

If I for instants see an ancient Rock Carving which I recognize as a star constellation, we then can have both a cultural, social, philosophical and cosmological discussion of this without worshipping and discussing semantics only.

image024.orion.atlas.jpg

Atlas, Orion Star Constellation
image023.orion.litsle.frott.jpg

Swedish Rock Art Orion Constellation from the Bronze Age. (Charcoal rubbing image from the cliff surface)

Yeah, but that is to me human experience and I can do what without metaphysics.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Ancient science was different. It was all deductive and individuals only saw what they understood just like ALL other life forms which are each individual. The science learned a great deal and all from a human perspective but it failed with Ancient Language which used to program the human brain.
Agreed in this - and the biggests qualitative difference between ancient and modern world perception is that our ancestors had it all to be cyclically and not linearly in nature.

This alone discards the very idea of a Big Bang and everything connected to this highly speculative idea, which even cannot obey the logical scientific laws of energy conservation.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I argued:
image024.orion.atlas.jpg

Atlas, Orion Star Constellation
image023.orion.litsle.frott.jpg

Swedish Rock Art Orion Constellation from the Bronze Age. (Charcoal rubbing image from the cliff surface)
Yeah, but that is to me human experience and I can do what without metaphysics.
Seriously? Do you take the posted factual physical observations as being metaphysical???
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I go by what world renown physicists say. As said, I'm not arrogant enough to argue with them or claim them to be wrong.
So you don´t argue against something, you´re not an expert on?

Will you then claim yourself to be an expert on mythical issues?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So you don´t argue against something, you´re not an expert on?

Or better put, I accept the expertise of experts.

Will you then claim yourself to be an expert on mythical issues?

Ha. The difference is that "mythical issues" are indistinguishable from non-existent / imaginary things.
So as far as I am concerned, no "expertise" or "experts" exist there, as there is nothing there to have any expertise in.

For example, an "expert in astrology" to me is at best a "master con-man".
When I argue with an "expert astrologist", I don't argue his or her "expertise". Instead, I argue that his field isn't a field at all and just imaginary bs instead.

I challenge them to show me that the thing they claim to be an expert in, actually exists. And they fail to meet that challenge.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Ha. The difference is that "mythical issues" are indistinguishable from non-existent / imaginary things.
So as far as I am concerned, no "expertise" or "experts" exist there, as there is nothing there to have any expertise in.
By this you´ve confirmed your lack of expertise on mythical issues. Still you´re discussing and ignoring a subject of which you have no clues!?

What ARE your PERSONAL expertise after all, since it´s not cosmology and not ancient knowledge?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I am not close to being an actual natural scientist, but from my understanding of philosophy I believe I get what is going on.
We have a set of observations and explanations based on these observations in general terms. If you then add a (set of) assumption(s), which haven't been tested yet, you get one cognitive result. If you add another, you get another. But neither is actual science as observed and test in the everyday world. But some people don't get that, because it is science, so it must be true in some sense.

Yes. You apply the set of assumptions that are simplest to produce the simplest results.

This set of assumptions is the paradigm upon which most build.
 
Last edited:

cladking

Well-Known Member
Agreed in this - and the biggests qualitative difference between ancient and modern world perception is that our ancestors had it all to be cyclically and not linearly in nature.

This alone discards the very idea of a Big Bang and everything connected to this highly speculative idea, which even cannot obey the logical scientific laws of energy conservation.

Well, yes and no. Reality is and was very cyclical to them and was perceived in these terms but I understand very little of their cosmology which may or may not involve the "big bang". There's an excellent chance that iff they thought there was a BB then they also though that it was cyclical; either repeating or calving over and over.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
By this you´ve confirmed your lack of expertise on mythical issues. Still you´re discussing and ignoring a subject of which you have no clues!?

Convenient how you snipped the rest of the post, where I noted that I don't argue the supposed "expertise", but rather the existence of the supposed fields themselves where people claim to be experts in.

So no, you are not correct. I'm not discussing "subjects of which I have no clue". Instead, I'm arguing about the very existence of the subject itself. Not at all the same thing.

This is why I gave the example of the astrologist. When I argue with an astrologist, I'm not arguing about the contents of astrology. When I argue with an "expert in homeopathy", I'm not questioning the guy's expertise. I'm questioning if homeopathy is even a thing to begin with.

Now contrast that with a creationist who argues evolution with a biologist.
The guy then isn't questioning if "biology is a thing". Instead, he's questioning if the biologist has an accurate understanding of the biology which the creationist himself also acknowledges as being a thing.

What ARE your PERSONAL expertise after all, since it´s not cosmology and not ancient knowledge?

I'm a software engineer.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Who is most?

It's Peers. Almost every Peer is pursuing new knowledge largely or strictly in terms of the prevailing paradigm.

"Skeptic" used to mean "disbeliever" but now it means "believer" so every skeptic defers to Peers.

Deference to peers is the logical course of action unless you research something for yourself and come to a different conclusion.


I believe many of our most fundamental paradigms are wrong with the primary problem being the nature of "consciousness".
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Well, yes and no. Reality is and was very cyclical to them and was perceived in these terms but I understand very little of their cosmology which may or may not involve the "big bang". There's an excellent chance that iff they thought there was a BB then they also though that it was cyclical; either repeating or calving over and over.
When studying Comparative Mythology and the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, one can mostly read of the formation of the Milky Way in general, as this was the immediate ancient World Picture extension, but some religions even had cosmological principles which were/are universal and reached beyond the Milky Way formation. Here I´m especially thinking of the Egyptian Ogdoad story of creation.

I don´t think our ancestors had an idea of "a big Bang" as their observation of nature were based on cyclical repetitions and explanations of everything in nature as a process of formation>dissolution and >re-formation.

But: By for instants taking the biblical telling of creation, one COULD interpret this as a beginning of everything in the Universe made by divine forces, but this interpretation fails when knowing of the cosmological scenario and the mythical symbolism which, at the largest deals with the formation of the Milky Way and not of the entire Universe.

In Ogdoad, when their 4x2 complementary elements comes together, this creates the "first central fiery entity" from where everything else is created. This "fire" is scholarly interpreted as Ra, the Sun, but when doing more research, this central light is connected directly to the father/daughter relationship between "Ra" and goddess Hathor or Nut (different names in different Egyptian cultural periods) which is connected to the Milky Way contours on the Earth´s southern hemisphere as illustrated here.

This relationship then logically speaks of a connection between our Milky Way galaxy and it´s central LIGHT and NOT about the Sun. It´s correct that the Sun IS named RA, but the logical Milky Way LIGHT mythical and cosmological connection and naming is ATUM-RA.

Of course, if historic and present scholars and authors have no ideas of the galactic extend in the ancient stories of creation, their only option to interpret a mythical luminous source of creation is the Sun, but this isn´t cosmologically or mythologically correct.

The ancient myths are much more extended and much more cosmologically correct and logical than most persons think - and this even goes for modern Egyptologists.
 
Last edited:

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
So no, you are not correct. I'm not discussing "subjects of which I have no clue". Instead, I'm arguing about the very existence of the subject itself. Not at all the same thing.
Well, you have yourself the convenience first to discard a mythical issue an now you´re discussing with yourself why you´re ignoring myths.

You dismiss the intellectual head of myths and now you´re trying to describe its intellectual tail without having any factual or argumentative connections in between.

With other words: You have no clues at all.
 
Last edited:

cladking

Well-Known Member
The ancient myths are much more extended and much more cosmologically correct and logical than most persons think - and this even goes for modern Egyptologists.

Egyptology knows absolutely nothing at all about ancient "beliefs". They have misinterpreted and misapprehended a language, a people, and a culture.

It is very apparent the ancients had significant understanding of astronomy though without knowledge of galaxies their understanding was limited.

I have numerous thoughts on the rest of your post but my beliefs about ancient "beliefs" and how they arose are not really relevant here. Suffice to say that our language is "confused" and everything we think we know about ancient ideas have come down to us in a sort of generational chinese telephone. Ideas get changed in every generation and then rephrased for the next until the original information is almost unrecognizable. Unfortunately science has a similar problem in that it is founded on definitions that contain words with ephemeral meanings so metaphysics evolves with each generation and now we have reached a point that Egyptology doesn't even need data or observation to reach conclusions far less experiment.

Where experimental interpretations change one funeral at a time the very meaning of science is constantly evolving in every observer. Of course there's no such thing as "evolution" because reality is binary so if you look at the change in the meaning of science closely enough you'll see many small sudden changes as definitions expand, contract, and change.

Life is simpler if you don't try to understand things like the nature of reality and the means we most use to understand it; science. It is simpler until you try to parse the meaning of and results of science for each observer; consciousness.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I go by what world renown physicists say. As said, I'm not arrogant enough to argue with them or claim them to be wrong.
The problem is that you do not know enough to understand what the world-renowned physicists/cosmologists are saying (or are quoted as saying). This isn’t your fault. You simply lack both the knowledge and the experience to see “behind” (as it were) the use of certain words like “predict” to realize what is meant by this term in these contexts, and overall are unfamiliar with the nature of the physical evidence, the nature of physical theory, and the physics literature in general. That is what I have been attempting to explain to you. I have not said that inflationary cosmologies are wrong, or that physicists like Guth, Linde, Weinberg, etc., have somehow made grave mistakes and ended up with grossly inaccurate conclusions, or even that that inflation in general is a failed enterprise.

Rather, I am trying to give you a picture freed from the inevitable sensationalism and drastic oversimplifications (combined with the “curse of knowledge”) one finds in popular physics. Thus, for example, what inflation is claimed to “predict” in the physics literature is couched in terms of equations and combinations of different theories (some of which we do not know beyond that e.g., we demand they be scalar QFTs with certain properties, and possibly more than one such field in the same model as a hybrid model of inflation, and so forth) and leave out all semblance of nuance in popular writings or in quotes found in science reporting.

Nor do I demand that my word be taken on anything. I have access to the relevant journals, conference proceedings, etc., and I have no problem with providing you whatever you wish so that you may see for yourself exactly what it is that is meant when proponents of inflationary and multiverse cosmologies speak of predictions and of evidence.

The point, after all, was and remains that the nature of this “evidence” rests on the metaphysical and philosophical assumptions that are in the main identical in nature to arguments from design. Cosmologists are aware of this. But as the presence of fine-tuning, the lack of naturalness, seemingly special initial conditions, and so forth have and continue to serve in physics in general as guideposts to better theories (more simply, they “cry out” for explanations), and as cosmology has since Einstein become a respected field of physics as opposed to philosophy, many if not most working on such problems make use of the same intuitions. This is particularly true of those I work more closely with of the specialists whose areas of expertise involve cosmological matters (namely, those coming out of particle physics and some of the more obscure areas in mathematical physics, quantum information, etc., such as the developing field of RQI as it relates to e.g., schemes for particle detectors or black holes).

Regardless, you are certainly inclined to believe whatever you wish based on what you perceive to be the claims made by famous physicists or quacks or anything in between. But because well-known physicists have the advantage of having published technical papers and monographs and so forth that state more clearly what it is they have and have not found and the evidence for their claims, in order to actually base your opinions on the views of famous physicists you would need to understand what it is they are referring to in the drastically over-simplified accounts you rely on. You don’t.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
The problem is that you do not know enough to understand what the world-renowned physicists/cosmologists are saying (or are quoted as saying). This isn’t your fault. You simply lack both the knowledge and the experience to see “behind” (as it were) the use of certain words like “predict” to realize what is meant by this term in these contexts, and overall are unfamiliar with the nature of the physical evidence, the nature of physical theory, and the physics literature in general. That is what I have been attempting to explain to you. I have not said that inflationary cosmologies are wrong, or that physicists like Guth, Linde, Weinberg, etc., have somehow made grave mistakes and ended up with grossly inaccurate conclusions, or even that that inflation in general is a failed enterprise.

Rather, I am trying to give you a picture freed from the inevitable sensationalism and drastic oversimplifications (combined with the “curse of knowledge”) one finds in popular physics. Thus, for example, what inflation is claimed to “predict” in the physics literature is couched in terms of equations and combinations of different theories (some of which we do not know beyond that e.g., we demand they be scalar QFTs with certain properties, and possibly more than one such field in the same model as a hybrid model of inflation, and so forth) and leave out all semblance of nuance in popular writings or in quotes found in science reporting.

Nor do I demand that my word be taken on anything. I have access to the relevant journals, conference proceedings, etc., and I have no problem with providing you whatever you wish so that you may see for yourself exactly what it is that is meant when proponents of inflationary and multiverse cosmologies speak of predictions and of evidence.

The point, after all, was and remains that the nature of this “evidence” rests on the metaphysical and philosophical assumptions that are in the main identical in nature to arguments from design. Cosmologists are aware of this. But as the presence of fine-tuning, the lack of naturalness, seemingly special initial conditions, and so forth have and continue to serve in physics in general as guideposts to better theories (more simply, they “cry out” for explanations), and as cosmology has since Einstein become a respected field of physics as opposed to philosophy, many if not most working on such problems make use of the same intuitions. This is particularly true of those I work more closely with of the specialists whose areas of expertise involve cosmological matters (namely, those coming out of particle physics and some of the more obscure areas in mathematical physics, quantum information, etc., such as the developing field of RQI as it relates to e.g., schemes for particle detectors or black holes).

Regardless, you are certainly inclined to believe whatever you wish based on what you perceive to be the claims made by famous physicists or quacks or anything in between. But because well-known physicists have the advantage of having published technical papers and monographs and so forth that state more clearly what it is they have and have not found and the evidence for their claims, in order to actually base your opinions on the views of famous physicists you would need to understand what it is they are referring to in the drastically over-simplified accounts you rely on. You don’t.


I think I generally understand your post. I believe that to dumb it down to my level you might say that theoretical physics has become highly theoretical and dependent on mathematics.

I might add that most work in this area now almost demands that one believe reality can be expressed mathematically. While I personally have no particular problem with this concept I believe that the fact reality might be able to be expressed mathematically is "coincidental". Reality is logic manifest and mathematics is reality quantified (analog). Of course there's a lot of concordance between them.

Be this as it may no theory can be founded in models or math and must have underlying experiment, observation and the ability to make predictions. Otherwise it's just a handy tool that may or may not be applicable to some equations or processes.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
It is very apparent the ancients had significant understanding of astronomy though without knowledge of galaxies their understanding was limited.
First: IMO there are no scientific limits to universal subjects and empirical human knowledge and I don´t differentiate between "ancient and modern knowledge" as an OP complement here on my thread.

So you just go on :)

- If you know 1 galaxy, our Milky Way, and have the elementary principles of formation in order, (in the Ogdoad) you know most of the rest of galaxies too.
Egyptology knows absolutely nothing at all about ancient "beliefs". They have misinterpreted and misapprehended a language, a people, and a culture.
Agreed in this - and this even goes for lots of Comparative Mythologists who have forgotten the cosmological extend of the ancient myths. (I mostly blame the Abrahamic religious heritage for this as the priesthood abandoned the mythical texts and symbolism, left their pantheon of deities and put all the money on and invisible patriarchal and revengeful He-God in the Sky.
Life is simpler if you don't try to understand things like the nature of reality and the means we most use to understand it; science. It is simpler until you try to parse the meaning of and results of science for each observer; consciousness.
I´ll go the other way and say: Modern astrophysical and cosmological science has confused itself by NOT trying to understand the natural rhythmic and circuital as it is ON and ABOVE the Earth. This gives an easy and "simple" mind because this is what we´re meant for.
 
Last edited:
Top