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What is Sin?

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I'm not here to to say you are right or wrong, but without proof, this is just a theory. The environment is always changing and life adapts.

What change and how would you verify this change resulted in perfection?

If it hasn't already been tested and verified, you can't really know.

to perfect means to bring to full development. so a comforter, advocate, savior, would be considered the perfection of man. a justice of the people, or judge of the people.


37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
to perfect means to bring to full development. so a comforter, advocate, savior, would be considered the perfection of man. a justice of the people, or judge of the people.


37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

All these verses from Palms should have been tested, should be testable now. It was written in the time of David. They all should have been as testable then as they are now.

The problem is we find this is not the case. There is no "earthly" justice for the wicked or the good. So the narrative is changed to this will all come to pass at some future date. Some date that no ones knows if it will ever come but folks are still free to believe in it because there is simply no way to test the truth of it now.

How long is a person supposed to keep believing in what can't be proven? An entire lifetime?

What good is having a God that can't be tested at their word?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
All these verses from Palms should have been tested, should be testable now. It was written in the time of David. They all should have been as testable then as they are now.

The problem is we find this is not the case. There is no "earthly" justice for the wicked or the good. So the narrative is changed to this will all come to pass at some future date. Some date that no ones knows if it will ever come but folks are still free to believe in it because there is simply no way to test the truth of it now.

How long is a person supposed to keep believing in what can't be proven? An entire lifetime?

What good is having a God that can't be tested at their word?

justice proves. without justice, chaos ensues justice must be dispensed from the idea of Love and not hatred, or punishment. but from idea of correction and controlling inappropriate behavior against other as self.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I have to wonder, if is truly one's one moral code. If my morals say it's ok to kill someone who keeps me awake by snoring and I do so, is it a sin? Not breaking my moral code.

Then it's not a 'sin.' It may well be a CRIME, and you will have to pay the consequences society demands, but it's not a 'sin.' Not if your morals really DO say that it's OK to kill someone whose snoring keeps you awake. Mind you, society may well attempt to get you to see that your particular moral code has a few problems.....

I think more likely it'd be some rules you were taught as moral, by religion/parents. A person does what they feel is right at the time. They may regret it later or feel guilt because of outside social pressure.

How does where one GETS one's moral code matter? If it's your code, it's your code, no matter where it came from originally. Sin is a VERY personal matter.

Now, if you later come to the conclusion that something you did earlier, even though you didn't think it was a sin at the time, was the wrong thing to do, then the process you are now engaging in is called 'repentance.' The steps of repentance include, FIRST, a recognition that something you did (or didn't do) was indeed wrong and 'sinful.' Once you do that, then you can go through the 'feel guilt/sorrow," 'attempt recompense,' 'fix it,' and 'stop doing the wrong thing."



I don't like coffee, I don't drink it. Kind of weird, you don't drink coffee because you feel it's wrong to do so? Don't like it, don't drink it. Drink it if you do. Why does this become a moral issue?

Because I promised not to drink it. That promise IS a moral issue. Perhaps it's not for you, but it is for me, y'see? A sin is a violation of one's personal moral code. BTW, I'm with you about the taste of coffee. I have to admit that my dislike for it does make it easier for me to keep that promise. ;) It's a LOT harder for Mom to keep it, since she loves the stuff.

As for me, I get the best part of coffee....the smell. If coffee tasted like it smelled, I might be far more tempted to break that promise.



She did what she felt was right to do at the time. If someone convinced her to feel guilt about it later, she probably have seen it as sinful.

Perhaps. And that is called 'repentance." Repentance, also, is a very personal thing.



I don't consider anything I do as wrong in anyway. If I considered it wrong, I wouldn't do it.

Goodness. A perfect man. I thought there was only One of those. Glad to meet another one.

Of course I make mistakes but that due to a lack of knowledge at the time. From those mistakes I learn to make better choices next time. No need for guilt or feeling immoral.

Don't knock guilt or remorse. Those people who truly don't ever feel any are sociopaths, and they are NOT assets to society.



As I see it, folks do whatever they see as right at the time.

They do whatever they feel is the best for the most important person/principle in their lives at the time. That doesn't mean that whatever they do 'at the time' isn't something they honestly believe is wrong, in their own moral view of things.

"Sin" is trying to impose your personal idea of right and wrong onto someone else or letting someone else impose there morals on you.

Nope. Sin has NOTHING to do with anybody else but you. What you are describing, in the above sentence, isn't 'sin,' it's 'law.'

And they are two entirely different concepts. Sometimes they are contradictory concepts.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Then it's not a 'sin.' It may well be a CRIME, and you will have to pay the consequences society demands, but it's not a 'sin.' Not if your morals really DO say that it's OK to kill someone whose snoring keeps you awake. Mind you, society may well attempt to get you to see that your particular moral code has a few problems.....
No argument here

How does where one GETS one's moral code matter? If it's your code, it's your code, no matter where it came from originally. Sin is a VERY personal matter.

Again no argument

Now, if you later come to the conclusion that something you did earlier, even though you didn't think it was a sin at the time, was the wrong thing to do, then the process you are now engaging in is called 'repentance.' The steps of repentance include, FIRST, a recognition that something you did (or didn't do) was indeed wrong and 'sinful.' Once you do that, then you can go through the 'feel guilt/sorrow," 'attempt recompense,' 'fix it,' and 'stop doing the wrong thing."

I see repentance a waste of time. If I was really sorry, I wouldn't have done it in the first place. However if it turned out to have "bad" consequences, just learn from it and make better choice next time.

If someone harms me, they just have to stop. No need to pay recompense. You can't really take the harm back. Just a cultural thing maybe to be payed for harm done to you. No logical reason for it.

Because I promised not to drink it. That promise IS a moral issue. Perhaps it's not for you, but it is for me, y'see? A sin is a violation of one's personal moral code. BTW, I'm with you about the taste of coffee. I have to admit that my dislike for it does make it easier for me to keep that promise. ;) It's a LOT harder for Mom to keep it, since she loves the stuff.

As for me, I get the best part of coffee....the smell. If coffee tasted like it smelled, I might be far more tempted to break that promise.

I've other folks tell me the same.

Perhaps. And that is called 'repentance." Repentance, also, is a very personal thing.

Just make better choices next time. that's all I'd ask of someone.

Goodness. A perfect man. I thought there was only One of those. Glad to meet another one.

Now who could you be talking about... Oh yeah. I'm a little slow sometimes.

I don't see it as being perfect, just honest, with myself and others.

Don't knock guilt or remorse. Those people who truly don't ever feel any are sociopaths, and they are NOT assets to society.

I really don't like either. Folks use guilt to manipulate other folks into doing what they want.

I feel it's "immoral" to try to manipulate folks into doing something they don't want to. Society and religion uses both to manipulate people. You/people in general need others to feel guilt to control their behavior. I think this is wrong.

I prefer reason, logic and encouragement over guilt to control behavior.

They do whatever they feel is the best for the most important person/principle in their lives at the time. That doesn't mean that whatever they do 'at the time' isn't something they honestly believe is wrong, in their own moral view of things.

Then I would argue that it's not really their moral view. It's what they think or have been convince by someone what their moral view should be.

Nope. Sin has NOTHING to do with anybody else but you. What you are describing, in the above sentence, isn't 'sin,' it's 'law.'

Ok, but basically I see the only use for the idea of sin is to manipulate other folks. In your view I suppose it's a means to manipulate yourself? you say it's a sin to try and keep yourself from doing something you want to do? Except with coffee it's used more as a figure of speech.

And they are two entirely different concepts. Sometimes they are contradictory concepts.

As you seem to use it. Which is fine by me. Using the idea of sin to manipulate your own behavior.

I don't think it's necessary for me. I'm fine with the way I behave.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
justice proves. without justice, chaos ensues justice must be dispensed from the idea of Love and not hatred, or punishment. but from idea of correction and controlling inappropriate behavior against other as self.

For children maybe. Ok, also for adults who act like children.

But that's not really the point. The point is if Christianity worked we should have perfect Christians by now.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
For children maybe. Ok, also for adults who act like children.

But that's not really the point. The point is if Christianity worked we should have perfect Christians by now.
Love is perfect. The truth is naked, no need to cover it up.

those who are vulnerable to outside influences, tend to cover up. you can't profit from what you can't control.

the truth is revelation, is the revealing or uncovering. there is nothing hidden that won't be exposed. Apocalypse NOW.


the end is near. the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member


Then we should be teaching folks not to be vulnerable.


Until the revelation it's all guessing. At the time of revelation, that's when decisions should be made.

The end has been near for 2000 years. Your concept of near and mine are different.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member

Then we should be teaching folks not to be vulnerable.



Until the revelation it's all guessing. At the time of revelation, that's when decisions should be made.


The end has been near for 2000 years. Your concept of near and mine are different.

the concept of "the kingdom of heaven is at hand", isn't mine. Once the revelation is understood the old passes away in the twinkling of an eye. again it is a state of mind, or change of mind.

for the kingdom of heaven to be realized on earth a catastrophic change in venue must come.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
the concept of "the kingdom of heaven is at hand", isn't mine. Once the revelation is understood the old passes away in the twinkling of an eye. again it is a state of mind, or change of mind.

for the kingdom of heaven to be realized on earth a catastrophic change in venue must come.

Ok, not much for anyone to do or decide upon until the catastrophic change occurs. Check back with me then.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Self-Realization

Revelation 3:2
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.

Despite these assurances from philosophy, empirical science has continued to build up an impressive body of evidence showing that introspection and consciousness are not reliable bases for self-knowledge. As sources of knowledge even about themselves, let alone anything else human, both are frequently and profoundly mistaken.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/18/opinion/why-you-dont-know-your-own-mind.html?_r=0
 

Cobol

Code Jockey
As an anti theist, i know their is no supernatural being looking after my moral well-being. That doesn't mean I have no morals or ethics - just that I am responsible for myself and fellow humans, not because of fear of retribution but because I believe it is the right way to live life.

Being an anti theist i consider murder, rape, theft etc. to be a bad thing, so there is no need to conflate morals and religion.

If Given the chance, would you prevent a woman from being raped? If yes, then you have just made a moral decision without god. Based on the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god their is no issue with this type of atrocity.

Their is no such thing as sin.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
As an anti theist, i know their is no supernatural being looking after my moral well-being. That doesn't mean I have no morals or ethics - just that I am responsible for myself and fellow humans, not because of fear of retribution but because I believe it is the right way to live life.

Being an anti theist i consider murder, rape, theft etc. to be a bad thing, so there is no need to conflate morals and religion.

If Given the chance, would you prevent a woman from being raped? If yes, then you have just made a moral decision without god. Based on the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god their is no issue with this type of atrocity.

Their is no such thing as sin.
murder, rape, theft, etc are considered crimes.


the words may change, the idea doesn't. wrong doing never goes out of style, the word that conveys it might.
 

Baroodi

Active Member
( the sin is what make you feel uneasy in the chest and you don't want the people to see it)
Muhammed, the messenger of God(peace be upon him and all messengers)
 
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