What is the Buddhist stance on recreational marijuana use?

[Ablaze]

This is an extreme view of a simple situation. All things serve a purpose.

Recreational drug use is not endorsed by Buddhism. It is as simple as that. The purpose of practicing Buddhism is to put an end to suffering through removal of lust, hatred, and delusion and by overcoming all craving/attachment. Recreational drugs cannot do that. They may serve a purpose, but that purpose is not supported by Buddhism.

 

[punkdbass]

Recreational drug use is not endorsed by Buddhism. It is as simple as that. The purpose of practicing Buddhism is to put an end to suffering through removal of lust, hatred, and delusion and by overcoming all craving/attachment. Recreational drugs cannot do that. They may serve a purpose, but that purpose is not supported by Buddhism.

I am not trying to start an argument here but rather I would like to seek clarification on a Buddhist's attitude towards the subject. Let me explain. In all my research on how the great religions and spiritual traditions view recreational drug use, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that ultimately recreational drug use is problematic to one's well being. That being said, I really like post #3 in this thread for it has helped me to find peace on this subject. Yes, the great spiritual traditions, including buddhism ultimately prohibit recreational drug use.. but these prohibitions/rules are more meant to serve as guide posts for one's spiritual path. I will explain: I do not think you are intellectually free if you do not feel that you can disagree with the teachings of Buddha, Jesus, etc. as we have them. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a Buddhist would not tell John Doe that he is wrong for smoking weed, but that he should be mindful of the consequences of his habit, and realize whether or not his drug use is harming his well being. If the precept of refraining from recreational use of intoxicants is truth, then a drug user should try to be mindful of the consequences of his use and hopefully he will come to learn the truth of the precept. The irony, I suppose, is that it is harder for a drug user to be mindful of the consequences of his drug use simply due to the fact that he is often intoxicated lol.

I guess this is the solipsist in me coming out, but at the end of the day, if you can truly, honestly say that your drug use is not problematic for your health, relationships, career, family, spiritual life, well being, etc... then how could anyone possibly tell you that you are wrong? I say this because I realize there are people out there who will vehemently assert that this is the case and I want to respect this.. although in my own experience I have found this to be an impossibility for myself, and the only thing I can be most certain of in life is my own experiences. Also, it would appear that I am not alone in this, for many, many people have went down the path of "recreational" drug use and the majority of which, I argue have all arrived more or less at the same conclusion - the truth of the 5th precept.

 

[crossfire]

I guess this is the solipsist in me coming out, but at the end of the day, if you can truly, honestly say that your drug use is not problematic for your health, relationships, career, family, spiritual life, well being, etc... then how could anyone possibly tell you that you are wrong? I say this because I realize there are people out there who will vehemently assert that this is the case and I want to respect this.. although in my own experience I have found this to be an impossibility for myself, and the only thing I can be most certain of in life is my own experiences. Also, it would appear that I am not alone in this, for many, many people have went down the path of "recreational" drug use and the majority of which, I argue have all arrived more or less at the same conclusion - the truth of the 5th precept.

Learning the lesson of unprofitable habits and renouncing them is a good thing, imo. This is an exceedingly difficult path, however.

This brings to mind a chapter from the Dhammapada:

Attavagga: The Self

157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.

158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control.

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain.

161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem.

162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish.

163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial.

164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones — that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction. [14]

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.
​

 

[Ablaze]

In all my research on how the great religions and spiritual traditions view recreational drug use, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that ultimately recreational drug use is problematic to one's well being.

Correct, in Buddhism, recreational drug use clouds, distorts, and confuses one's ability to see and practice clearly. Under these conditions, deep wisdom cannot come about.

That being said, I really like post #3 in this thread for it has helped me to find peace on this subject. Yes, the great spiritual traditions, including buddhism ultimately prohibit recreational drug use.. but these prohibitions/rules are more meant to serve as guide posts for one's spiritual path.

Correct, the precepts are not commandments laid down by an Almighty God, but instead serve as foundational principles by which to live one's life. Among them is abstaining from all recreational drug use, since such intoxicants impede one's practice on the Buddhist path.

I will explain: I do not think you are intellectually free if you do not feel that you can disagree with the teachings of Buddha, Jesus, etc. as we have them.

Correct, freedom of inquiry is in fact encouraged in Buddhism. However, central tenets such as the Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Three Marks, Five Precepts, etc. are indisputable given their centrality, unless of course Buddhism is not one's path of practice. In that case, they do not apply. However, the "Buddhist stance" on recreational marijuana use was requested, and that is what was given. Others are free to disagree from outside the Buddhist perspective, but within Buddhism, the fifth precept is clear.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a Buddhist would not tell John Doe that he is wrong for smoking weed, but that he should be mindful of the consequences of his habit, and realize whether or not his drug use is harming his well being.

Correct. However, it is unwise, from the Buddhist perspective.

If the precept of refraining from recreational use of intoxicants is truth, then a drug user should try to be mindful of the consequences of his use and hopefully he will come to learn the truth of the precept. The irony, I suppose, is that it is harder for a drug user to be mindful of the consequences of his drug use simply due to the fact that he is often intoxicated lol.

Correct, which is why recreational drug use is strongly discouraged in Buddhism from the outset.

I guess this is the solipsist in me coming out, but at the end of the day, if you can truly, honestly say that your drug use is not problematic for your health, relationships, career, family, spiritual life, well being, etc... then how could anyone possibly tell you that you are wrong? I say this because I realize there are people out there who will vehemently assert that this is the case and I want to respect this.. although in my own experience I have found this to be an impossibility for myself, and the only thing I can be most certain of in life is my own experiences. Also, it would appear that I am not alone in this, for many, many people have went down the path of "recreational" drug use and the majority of which, I argue have all arrived more or less at the same conclusion - the truth of the 5th precept.

The Buddhist in me might suggest that such thinking ("if you can truly, honestly say that your drug use is not problematic for your health, relationships, career, family, spiritual life, well being, etc... then how could anyone possibly tell you that you are wrong?") is delusional.

Bear in mind that this is how it is seen in Buddhism. This is not to pass any judgment on those who indulge in recreational drug use, but merely to articulate the "Buddhist stance."

 

[punkdbass]

Yes, I realize this is the Buddhism DIR and you are merely trying to explain the Buddhist stance on things. Thanks very much for the clarification on this subject Ablaze!

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I've just made the executive decision 'to heck with it'.

I used to be against the practice...I used to be against a lot of things...

However, if sexual promiscuity and immorality is now being seen as totally acceptable in religions, then so should this.

Why have any restrictions/taboos at all? Rules were meant to be broken after all.

So, I can accept gay religious people if they can accept the fact I choose to smoke pot. There's no difference there whatsoever. The times have changed and we all get to do whatever we like now and still be 'religious'....so everybody keeps on telling me.

Besides, everybody also keeps on telling me that I am a much nicer person when I am stoned...much more approachable...much more 'human' and less cold, aloof and robotic. That's something I cannot achieve through meditation - it just makes that worse.

So, I am going to keep on/increase it. I have had enough of 'playing by the rules' when they keep changing all the time.

I have had enough of everybody telling me; 'get down off your high horse...I smoke, my mum smokes...heck, my dog smokes...if it makes you a 'better person', what's the problem?'

The overwhelming majority opinion is like this, so, for a change I should become a sheep...it seems like the only way people get to exist/function in this world.

 

[apophenia]

So, I can accept gay religious people if they can accept the fact I choose to smoke pot. There's no difference there whatsoever.

I get the general gist of your post, and agree with the spirit of it, and I am not wanting to give you a negative reply, but there is an issue here which will get you roasted sooner or later. So I may as well point it out to you :sorry1:

The issue in that statement is, there is a difference - being gay is no more a choice than being heterosexual is a choice. Both the suggestion that it is a choice, and that it is immoral indulgence, are offensive to gay people. ( Just for the record, I am hetero, so this is not a personal complaint).

Apart from that - yeah, getting stoned, big deal. I like cookies.:rainbow1:

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I get the general gist of your post, and agree with the spirit of it, and I am not wanting to give you a negative reply, but there is an issue here which will get you roasted sooner or later. So I may as well point it out to you :sorry1:

The issue in that statement is, there is a difference - being gay is no more a choice than being heterosexual is a choice. Both the suggestion that it is a choice, and that it is immoral indulgence, are offensive to gay people. ( Just for the record, I am hetero, so this is not a personal complaint).

Apart from that - yeah, getting stoned, big deal. I like cookies.:rainbow1:

I was expecting the retaliation, but I am also glad you got the whole context and gist of what I was going on about, without taking that remark totally out of context. I thank you for that.

I also realise that no matter what, I am like a bear with a sore head when I am sober. I am virtually insufferable.

If this is what it's going to take to make me in the least bit pleasant to other people, this is what I must do.

At least I can manage to stay on topic. lol

 

[punkdbass]

I've just made the executive decision 'to heck with it'.

I used to be against the practice...I used to be against a lot of things...

However, if sexual promiscuity and immorality is now being seen as totally acceptable in religions, then so should this.

Why have any restrictions/taboos at all? Rules were meant to be broken after all.

So, I can accept gay religious people if they can accept the fact I choose to smoke pot. There's no difference there whatsoever. The times have changed and we all get to do whatever we like now and still be 'religious'....so everybody keeps on telling me.

Besides, everybody also keeps on telling me that I am a much nicer person when I am stoned...much more approachable...much more 'human' and less cold, aloof and robotic. That's something I cannot achieve through meditation - it just makes that worse.

So, I am going to keep on/increase it. I have had enough of 'playing by the rules' when they keep changing all the time.

I have had enough of everybody telling me; 'get down off your high horse...I smoke, my mum smokes...heck, my dog smokes...if it makes you a 'better person', what's the problem?'

The overwhelming majority opinion is like this, so, for a change I should become a sheep...it seems like the only way people get to exist/function in this world.

There are many great arguments, from a spiritual/religious standpoint, for using marijuana medicinally.. many were shared in this thread, and in all the talks I've had with you on the subject, I'm sure you could find medicinal reasons for using marijuana. If you truly think marijuana increases your state of well being and helps you to be more functional - and hey, I've watched several videos of medicinal marijuana users where it is blatantly obvious this is the case, then toke up my friend.

I'm not trying to lecture you here so feel free to ignore me lol but the topic of marijuana very much interests me as I know you've noticed. If your going to start smoking again, just try to be mindful of how it effects you I guess, and if it makes anxiety worse for example. All of the great spiritual traditions of the world seem to agree on this one major thing: mindfulness and being present are crucial for obtaining nirvana, peace, enlightenment, etc. And in general, these traditions feel it best to prohibit intoxicants - since hey, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize intoxicants make it more difficult to be mindful.

Best of luck, hope all is well,
Namaste

 

[Twilight Hue]

The middle path applies to neither sensory indulgence nor sensory deprivation. Recreational drug use errs on the extreme of sensory indulgence, a path the Buddha frowned upon.

Yes. To paraphrase Watts, it seems such a use might be useful for an experience, but afterwards best to shut the door then.

 

[crossfire]

Yes. To paraphrase Watts, it seems such a use might be useful for an experience, but afterwards best to shut the door then.

Something like, "if you get the message, hang up the phone" or something to that effect?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes. To paraphrase Watts, it seems such a use might be useful for an experience, but afterwards best to shut the door then.

We have a saying in India, a wise person learns from the experience of others, a normal person should be able to learn from his own experience, a fool does not learn even when he goes through the experience. Drug use also is an experience. Or as Buddha said in Kalama Sutta, "only when one personally knows that a certain teaching is skillful, blameless, praiseworthy, and conducive to happiness, and that it is praised by the wise, should one then accept it as true and practice it."

 

[flowzensight]

I imagine that habitual acceptance of your marijuana use is harmful to the enlightenment process the same way marriage is: if you do it, you're not committed to reaching "it" within this lifetime. You have chosen a life dependent upon relative factors. Enlightenment is(supposedly)the highest achievement one can attain within(/without?)this relative reality, and seems to be the state requiring the least relative factors. That being said, enlightenment is only a concept that we humans work towards. The "it" of it, cannot be explained rationally. That's why anything the Buddha said is just a sign in the wilderness saying: this is the shortest path.

 

[Osal]

I imagine that habitual acceptance of your marijuana use is harmful to the enlightenment process the same way marriage is: if you do it, you're not committed to reaching "it" within this lifetime.

Marpa was married. Had children, or so I'm told. Worked a farm. Translated dharma texts he traveled from Tibet to India to find. Twice. Taught the great Yogi Milarepa in the great Mahamudra tradition he received from his guru Naropa.. Still managed to achieve enlightenment.

I suspect that cannabis was consumed along the way, too.


Padmasambhava had 5 consorts. He managed Buddhahood.

I don't know the lotus brn got high or not, but condsidering some of the wierd **** those yogis did ......

 

[Vishvavajra]

It's certainly discouraged. Buddhists aren't going to come beat down your door and take away your stash or anything, but recreational intoxication is singled out as an activity that is counterproductive to the Buddhist path, to the extent that all confirmed Buddhists take a vow to abstain from such things (the Fifth Precept). People can take that precept and then break it on occasion, but the point is that even if you do indulge in intoxication, you should realize that it's not a good thing and should strive to do better in the future. If you have the right view and attitude, your desire for such things will naturally decrease and eventually disappear. Someone who can't let go of their drugs isn't going to make any progress on the path in this lifetime.

The reason behind this is that it's basically the opposite of the mindfulness that Buddhists are supposed to be cultivating through meditation practice, and it will actually degrade any progress that you make in that regard. The point of Buddhist practice is to train the mind to function at its fullest capacity of awareness at all times, free of obstacles and distractions, and not subject to negative impulses. Drugs like cannabis dull the awareness and degrade one's self-control. They induce altered states of consciousness that people often mistake for enlightened states but are actually not useful at all. They're basically just escapism. Buddhadharma is about facing reality directly, not through a haze, and not avoiding it by numbing oneself.

 

[Osal]

It's certainly discouraged. Buddhists aren't going to come beat down your door and take away your stash or anything, but recreational intoxication is singled out as an activity that is counterproductive to the Buddhist path, to the extent that all confirmed Buddhists take a vow to abstain from such things (the Fifth Precept).

I'm a confirmed Buddhist and I wasn't asked, nor have I taken any such vow.

I do not abstain.

People can take that precept and then break it on occasion, but the point is that even if you do indulge in intoxication, you should realize that it's not a good thing and should strive to do better in the future.

It's niether good not bad. There is no inherent god or bad involves. Now, on the other hand, taking something to excess is another thing, but thaat's a different problem and simple use is not the same as abuse.

If you have the right view and attitude, your desire for such things will naturally decrease and eventually disappear.

That's true.

Someone who can't let go of their drugs isn't going to make any progress on the path in this lifetime.

I don't think that's true at all.

The reason behind this is that it's basically the opposite of the mindfulness that Buddhists are supposed to be cultivating through meditation practice, and it will actually degrade any progress that you make in that regard.

Not necessarily.

But on that topic, did you become a Buddhist when still a hard-core stoner and then some time later stop and can now offer something more than hypotheticals?

I've smoked pot for 45 years. I'm known to take a drink. I becme a Buddist 12 years ago. Not that I paay a great deal of attention to things like "progress" along the path, I think I've done ok - well enough to suit me - while completely ignoring the Precepts.

I'm not alone, either.

The point of Buddhist practice is to train the mind to function at its fullest capacity of awareness at all times, free of obstacles and distractions, and not subject to negative impulses. Drugs like cannabis dull the awareness and degrade one's self-control. They induce altered states of consciousness that people often mistake for enlightened states but are actually not useful at all. They're basically just escapism. Buddhadharma is about facing reality directly, not through a haze, and not avoiding it by numbing oneself.

Idealized interpretation of teachings can be as hazy as a room full of pot smoke.[/Quote]

 

[Vishvavajra]

Part of taking refuge means taking the 5 precepts, the fifth of which is to avoid intoxication. Our refuge ceremony included vowing to follow those precepts specifically, as well as the bodhisattva vow. Maybe yours didn't. In any case, those are the precepts that laymen take, not just monks, who have many more. It's the weakest of the five, in that its primary purpose is to prevent people from heedlessly breaking the other four, but it's still important enough to be universal within the Buddhist tradition, regardless of sect.

As for the rest, I'm not talking about idealized interpretations of anything. It's a very concrete matter having to do with daily practice. It may not be as bad as killing and eating animals or breaking the other precepts, but it does present an obstacle of a different sort, and there's been pretty consistent agreement on that for a couple of thousand years (the uncharacteristic permissiveness of watered-down "beat Zen" notwithstanding). But I don't expect you to take my word for it. Take it up with your teacher.

 

[Osal]

Part of taking refuge means taking the 5 precepts, the fifth of which is to avoid intoxication.

Mine didn't.

And my read of that precept is fermented drink, not that I refrain from that, either.

Those are the precepts that laymen take, not just monks, who have many more. It's the weakest of the five, in that its primary purpose is to prevent people from heedlessly breaking the other four, but it's still important enough to be universal within the Buddhist tradition, regardless of sect.

Not mine.

As for the rest, I'm not talking about idealized interpretations of anything. It's a very concrete matter having to do with daily practice.

I think these discussions have more to do with enforcing some arbitrary orthodoxy than practice.

Take it up with your teacher.

I have.

 

[Vishvavajra]

What school do you belong to that doesn't have the 5 Precepts? Now I have to know.

 

[Osal]

What school do you belong to that doesn't have the 5 Precepts? Now I have to know.

I don't think so. I suspect you'll say something of a derogatory nature about it and that I won't permit. I learned two things a long time ago about Buddhist fora. One is never reveal your teacher an two, never reveal your lineage.

Suffice it to say there is considerably more diversity in Buddhism than you seem to think.