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what is the concept of Trinity in Christianity?
- Thread starter bestway
- Start date
jtartar
Well-Known Member
bestway,
The real truth is: There is no such thing as different denominations of Christians.
Being a Christian is exactly like being a Brain Surgeon, you must fulfill the qualifications. Just like being a Brain Surgeon, saying you are one does not make it so. Just saying you are a Christian does not make it true!!!
So, what does it take to make a true Christian?? Any true Christian MUST fulfill the commandments of Jesus. First, every Christian must understand that God has given His son JESUS, as the only name by which a person can be saved, Acts 4:12, 13:38,39, Gal 2:16, 6:2, 1Tim 2:5, John 15:10.
Every Christian must understand that there is only ONE ORGANIZATION ON EARTH, that God is blessing, Eph 4:3-6.
Every Christian must understand that there is only ONE TRUE GOD, John 17:3, 1Cor 8:4-6. The true God's name is Jehovah, and was recorded in His original inspired Bible over 7,000 times.
Every Christian must all teach the same truth, 1Cor 1:10.
Every Christian must be able to prove from the Holy Scriptures why he believes the way he does, 1Pet 3:15.
Every Christian must be a close follower of Jesus' ways, 1Pet 2:21, 1John 2:4-6, Titus 1:16, Rom 2:23,24, and NOT do things to bring reproach on God's name, 2Per 2:1-3, Eph 5:3-6.
Every true Christian must NOT be part of this world, John 15:18-20, 18:36,37, James 4:4. Jesus said that his Kingdom was no part of this world.
Every true Christian will obey Jesus' command to teach others the way of a Christian, Matt 28:19,20, Rom 1:16,17, 1Tim 4:16.
Every true Christian will study God's word dilligently to make sure he is using God's words correctly, 1Tim 6:2-5, 2Tim 2:15.
Christians must teach correctly, otherwise he may stumble someone, the very one who Jesus gave his life for, Matt 18: 6,7, 1Cor 8:11, Col 2:8, James 3:1, 1Tim 1:5-7, 6:20, 2Pet 3:16.
There are many other things that qualify a person to be a Christian, but this last scripture goes a long way in describing the life of a True Christian, Heb 13:18.
Jesus said that you would be able to identify his followers by the LOVE the show, John 13:34,35.
Even though these requirements might seem to be hard to follow, they are not, because each requirement is given for our own good, to help a Christian to live a long happy life, Isa 48:17,18, 1John 5:3.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
bestway,
You ask a very good question. I have stufied the Holy Scriptures for almost fifty years, and I can find NOT ONE Scripture that leads a reasonable person to believe thare is a Trinity that anyone should worship.
First, allow me to point out the very few scriptures that could even be twisted to believe such a thing.
At John 10:30, Jesus is quoted as saying: I and the Father are one. Now, is Jesus saying that he and his Father are one person, or is Jesus saying that they have the same goals, are working together as one?? The answer can be determined by what Jesus said at John 17:11, 21-23. In these scriptures Jesus says that all his followers are as one, the same as he and the Father are one. To prove what Jesus was saying look back at John 17:3, where Jesus says there is only one true God and that God sent him, Jesus, to earth. Another point, God's personal name is Jehovah!!
Another point about being ONE, Consider Matt 19:5,6, where are told that when a man and a woman get married they become ONE FLESH. Reason, did Jesus actually mean that they would become ONE PERSON, or did he mean they should work together as ONE??
Another scripture that is used is John 14:9, which says: If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus always does the things his Father wanted him to do, in fact the Bible says that Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God, Col 1:14. Is an image the same as the thing?? Hebrews also says something very similar, Heb 1:3, says that Jesus is the reflection of God's glory, the exact REPRESENTATION of His very being. Ask yourself: is the reflection of someone the person that is reflected?? Look in the mirror, are you that reflection??? Shoot the reflection and see. Is a representation the same as the thing that it is a representative of?? Of course not!!
John 16:27, tells about Jesus telling his disciples that he came out as a representative of God. The whole chapter of John 17, is a prayer, Verse 8 is a quoted statement made by Jesus, during his prayer to the Only True God, Jehovah.
At John 1:6, we are told that another man came out as a representative of God, his name was John. Is he also a member of a trinity???
In the explanation of the Trinity, both the Father and the son are Co-eternal, All knowing, and Omnipotent. The Bible tells us that The God created Jesus as His first creation, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14. Prov 8:22-31, is believed by almost all theologians to be talking about Jesus. These scriptures agree with other parts of the Bible which says that through Jesus and for Jesus all things came into existence, John 1:1-3, where Jesus is called THE WORD, John 1:1, 1:14, Rev 19:11-13.
What do the scriptures say about Co-eternal?? Jesus was created by his Father. Jesus himself says that he lives because of the Father, John 6:57. The Bible tells us at Ps 36:9, that God is the source of life. Proverbs tells us that a father causes the birth of a son. Jesus always said that he was the SON of his Father.
What about All knowing?? Jesus said there was things that he did not know, but only the Father did, Matt 24:36. Jesus said that some things belonged to the Father, that he had no say about, Matt 20:23.
What about Omnipotent?? Jesus said that the Father is greater than himself, John 14:28. There can be only ONE All powerful. The term is Mutually Exclusive.
Jesus said that the Father is his GOD and his Father, the same as Anointed Christians, John 20:17.
Jesus said that only ONE is GOOD, and it was not him, but his Father, God, Luke 18:18,19.
While Jesus was on earth, God spoke from heaven, to him, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28. Notice that at Mark 9:7, God Himself said: This is my SON, LISTEN TO HIM. I wonder how many times that Jesus must say that he is God's son and people not believe him??? I wonder if people think Jesus was lying to them or he was tricking them??? Notice 1Pet 2:22, where the scriptures tells us that Jesus committed NO SIN, nor was deception found in his mouth. Consider just how clearly Jesus informs us about him and his Father, Matt 16:13-17.
At John 5:22, the Bible tells us that the Father does NO JUDGING at all, but has committed all the judging to the Son. This statement would be a lie if Jesus and the Father were the same person. Who is it that wants to call God or His son a lier?? Ps 5:6, Rev 21:8, 22:15.
The Bible speaks of Jesus being a servant of God, Acts 3:13, 4:27, as God's apostle, meaning one sent forth, Heb 3:1.
There are other scriptures that show that God and Jesus are different persons.
If you can find a scripture that seems to say they are the same please tell me, because I have been trying to find one for many years.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course, you realize that Jesus already fulfilled the Law (commandments) for us, and that the crux of the difference between Pharisaical Judaism and Xy is the concept of grace?
Of course, you also know that the earliest followers thought of themselves as no more or less than Jews, hence the debate between the Jerusalem disciples and Paul over circumcision of Gentiles.
You must also be aware that the Church was not "united" until Constantine, and that the Proto and early Church was extremely diverse in thought and praxis.
further, I assume you're aware that the name "Jehovah" is a construct of German Bible scholars, and does not appear in the ancient texts in any way, shape or form.
I also assume you're aware that the thrust of Jesus' teaching was to broadcast the good news that God's kingdom had already come near in this world?
newhope101
Active Member
Hey there. There are plenty of quoted scriptures above so I won't double up. When you look them up there are plently of times Jesus identified himself as an individual. One scripture that comes to mind is in Mathew 24:36 that speaks to the end of the age. Here Jesus says "No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father." It's pretty clear and makes one wonder just how inspired some religious leaders are. There are many passages identifying Jesus as an individual. One thing that peeves me heaps about religious leaders is they try to complicate everything to the point that no one understands. It may be part of the mystical crap understood by only theologians, where the bible message is meant for the poor, simple and uneducated.
There are bits in the bible where statements are made saying God, the holy spirit and the father are one. These are the scriptures that are used to make it all into complicated nonsense. It's like you, I and someone else agreeing on something and saying we are one meaning we are of one mind in thought etc. How anyone could have convinced a population in relation to the trinity is amazing. I think in those days bibles were not allowed or scarce so no one could read for themselves.
Jehova is the name Jehova's Witnesses use for God. Yes the bible does say to call on Gods' name as opposed to his title. Yaweh is also as popular. However both names have been best guessed out of the consonants found in old writing that had no verbs, so the name is unclear.
One only has to read the bible to work out for themselves that Jesus is a very separate person to God and the holy spirit. I'd love to hear how some trinitarians debate their belief.
There are bits in the bible where statements are made saying God, the holy spirit and the father are one. These are the scriptures that are used to make it all into complicated nonsense. It's like you, I and someone else agreeing on something and saying we are one meaning we are of one mind in thought etc. How anyone could have convinced a population in relation to the trinity is amazing. I think in those days bibles were not allowed or scarce so no one could read for themselves.
Jehova is the name Jehova's Witnesses use for God. Yes the bible does say to call on Gods' name as opposed to his title. Yaweh is also as popular. However both names have been best guessed out of the consonants found in old writing that had no verbs, so the name is unclear.
One only has to read the bible to work out for themselves that Jesus is a very separate person to God and the holy spirit. I'd love to hear how some trinitarians debate their belief.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course Jesus is a completely different person than the Father. But they are both God.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
I think of it as follows,
Father - God/Allah, that unknowable ground of all being from which we arise.
Son -Jesus is human. Fully so - fully actualised. Everything a person can be, all capabilities realised. His perfection rendering his being inseperable from that which it emerged. I think some eastern (non Christian) traditions might consider this *merged*
Holy Spirit - Is that "....ness" flowing through creation since time began. It is the essence of Being that flows from the Ground of All Being.
I think Jesus offers a path of peace and awareness which allows access, through him, to the unity he embodied.
Sorry I can't offer references because they are only my own thoughts so feel entirely free to dismiss them as ramblings
Sojourner - I am interested in your perspective so if you have 2 minutes to comment critically I would appreciate it.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
The reason Christians believe in a trinity, as opposed to strict 'oneness' monotheism, is that God is Love. As love cannot exist by itself, there has to be a Lover and a Lovee.
God the Father is the apex of the pyramid, the source of spiration. Before all time and infinitely back, God has spoken His Word. As God is never without his word, the Word is also God. Therefore, God the Word (Jesus) issues forth from the Father. The Father loves His Word, His Son. The Son loves his Father back. The infinite Love that passes back and forth between the two is the Holy Spirit.
That's why all three are God of One Essence but are three persons. If there was no divine Word (Son) but the created word (Arianism), that would mean that Christ is some strange 'third thing' that is neither man nor God. A type of demi-god. They used the term 'tertium quid'. If the Word was created, then there was a time when God did NOT have his Word, which would imply that God somehow changed his nature, which does not happen.
If there is no Word, God is alone with Himself. A being that is alone cannot love anyone but Itself. Therefore, there has to be something to receive that love.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Not that I disagree with what you say, but it is entirely too humanistic to be representative of the classic Trinitarian doctrine. Jesus is fully human, but he is also fully Divine -- God became Incarnate -- not the other way round: humanity became Divine. It's a difference that's worth noting, even though I think that your approach is as valid as the orthodox approach.I think of it as follows,
Father - God/Allah, that unknowable ground of all being from which we arise.
Son -Jesus is human. Fully so - fully actualised. Everything a person can be, all capabilities realised. His perfection rendering his being inseperable from that which it emerged. I think some eastern (non Christian) traditions might consider this *merged*
Holy Spirit - Is that "....ness" flowing through creation since time began. It is the essence of Being that flows from the Ground of All Being.
I think Jesus offers a path of peace and awareness which allows access, through him, to the unity he embodied.
Sorry I can't offer references because they are only my own thoughts so feel entirely free to dismiss them as ramblings
Sojourner - I am interested in your perspective so if you have 2 minutes to comment critically I would appreciate it.
newhope101
Active Member
I respectfully disagree. Jesus was created by God and is referred to as Gods' son. Jesus states that God is greater than he is.
Col 1:15 "He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. the first born over all creation..." God created his son. How can they be the same person?
They are one in mind but there are plenty of scriptures that identify Jesus as a separate being. On the cross Jesus asked of God "why have you forsaken me?" Mathew ch24 sites Jesus as saying no body knows the date of the end of the age 'only the father'. The congregations must acknowledge Jesus' sacrifice, for the bible attests there is no salvation otherwise, but I do not read from the bible that Jesus is God.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
Are you a Nicene Christian?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Historic Xy states that Jesus was born of God -- not created by God. It's a subtle, but important difference.
In fact, Jesus doesn't say that God is greater than he. He says that the Father is greater than he.
There are many passages that identify Jesus as a separate Person, but not necessarily a separate Being. One Being -- three Persons.
jml03
Member
This comes up alot in my sector of religion. The United Pentecostal Church believes to baptize "in Jesus name". They believe 3 in 1, Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one and the same. Jesus was God in the flesh.
I am Pentecostal Church of God, which believes they are 3 different entities.
I know the scripture where Jesus says 'if you have seen me, then you have seen the Father' (my own words) however, I look at it like this: My husband runs a business with his father. When his father is gone, he knows what to do. He and his father are on the same page, as they both know what is going on, what is needed to be done, and what they will not do. So when my husband makes a decision, he is ultimately carrying out his fathers wishes. If someone wants to make an offer for something, and they ask for his father - he can say, if you have seen me, then you have seen my father. Thus, what I say goes... That's just how I make sense of it.
I am Pentecostal Church of God, which believes they are 3 different entities.
I know the scripture where Jesus says 'if you have seen me, then you have seen the Father' (my own words) however, I look at it like this: My husband runs a business with his father. When his father is gone, he knows what to do. He and his father are on the same page, as they both know what is going on, what is needed to be done, and what they will not do. So when my husband makes a decision, he is ultimately carrying out his fathers wishes. If someone wants to make an offer for something, and they ask for his father - he can say, if you have seen me, then you have seen my father. Thus, what I say goes... That's just how I make sense of it.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
So your church is tritheist instead of monotheist?