What is the difference between faith and thought?

[Kfox]

Faith is a spiritual condition. Not so much a state of mind, as a state of the soul.

No; spirits and souls don't exist, faith does.

 

[alifdecor]

The concepts of faith and thought, while interconnected, are fundamentally different in their nature and function. Here's a breakdown of each:

Faith​

• Definition: Faith typically refers to a strong belief or trust in something, especially without empirical evidence or proof. It is often associated with religious or spiritual conviction.
• Basis: Faith is based on conviction, trust, and confidence in a particular doctrine, deity, or set of beliefs.
• Nature: It is more emotional and subjective, often requiring a leap beyond the rational or the observable.
• Examples: Belief in God, religious doctrines, spiritual truths, or the trust that everything will work out even without clear evidence.

Thought​

• Definition: Thought refers to the process of considering, reasoning, and reflecting on ideas and information. It is the cognitive activity of the mind.
• Basis: Thought is based on reasoning, logic, evidence, and analysis.
• Nature: It is more rational, objective, and analytical, relying on evidence, logic, and critical thinking.
• Examples: Analyzing a scientific problem, solving a mathematical equation, planning a strategy, or reflecting on philosophical questions.

Regard:
Alif Decor

 

[Eddi]

The concepts of faith and thought, while interconnected, are fundamentally different in their nature and function. Here's a breakdown of each:

Faith​

• Definition: Faith typically refers to a strong belief or trust in something, especially without empirical evidence or proof. It is often associated with religious or spiritual conviction.
• Basis: Faith is based on conviction, trust, and confidence in a particular doctrine, deity, or set of beliefs.
• Nature: It is more emotional and subjective, often requiring a leap beyond the rational or the observable.
• Examples: Belief in God, religious doctrines, spiritual truths, or the trust that everything will work out even without clear evidence.

Thought​

• Definition: Thought refers to the process of considering, reasoning, and reflecting on ideas and information. It is the cognitive activity of the mind.
• Basis: Thought is based on reasoning, logic, evidence, and analysis.
• Nature: It is more rational, objective, and analytical, relying on evidence, logic, and critical thinking.
• Examples: Analyzing a scientific problem, solving a mathematical equation, planning a strategy, or reflecting on philosophical questions.

Regard:
Alif Decor

Looks a lot like something Chat GPT would come up with.....

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The concepts of faith and thought, while interconnected, are fundamentally different in their nature and function. Here's a breakdown of each:

Faith​

• Definition: Faith typically refers to a strong belief or trust in something, especially without empirical evidence or proof. It is often associated with religious or spiritual conviction.
• Basis: Faith is based on conviction, trust, and confidence in a particular doctrine, deity, or set of beliefs.
• Nature: It is more emotional and subjective, often requiring a leap beyond the rational or the observable.
• Examples: Belief in God, religious doctrines, spiritual truths, or the trust that everything will work out even without clear evidence.

Thought​

• Definition: Thought refers to the process of considering, reasoning, and reflecting on ideas and information. It is the cognitive activity of the mind.
• Basis: Thought is based on reasoning, logic, evidence, and analysis.
• Nature: It is more rational, objective, and analytical, relying on evidence, logic, and critical thinking.
• Examples: Analyzing a scientific problem, solving a mathematical equation, planning a strategy, or reflecting on philosophical questions.

Regard:
Alif Decor

Well, in some sense the belief that e.g. the universe is physical requires as much faith as a belief in God and is not observable and it can't be establish rationally.
The overall problem is how does knowledge work?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It seems that faith' seems to be something that just happens in one's head, in the same way as a random or intended thought would.

I'll assume that thought here means thought in words (verbal thoughts). One could expand that to all conscious phenomena, such as fear, desire, a sense of familiarity, or feeling sleepy - nonverbal thoughts or mental states.

Faith is not a category of thought. It's a path to belief - a method of acquiring a belief.

Ideas believed by faith might be strongly held intuitions such that there is a reality outside of consciousness or that one has libertarian free will, or it can be an idea that somebody was told and believed.

Thus, one may have an intuition that some intelligence must be behind reality, and that intuition be a strong conviction (irresistible intuition), but just what one says about the nature of that intelligence would likely be the dogma of some religion, such as that that intelligence created the world in six days, which is not an intuition, but also believed without sufficient supporting evidence to justify that belief and thus also believed by faith.

Verbal thoughts include not just beliefs (whether acquired through faith, intuition, or the application of reason to evidence), but also assorted ideas like questions and plans and the words one is reading on a menu.

If you are making a chair you have to believe in it first before it exists

We should make a distinction between that kind of idea, which can be called faith, and faith as I defined it above. A belief based in experience is a justified belief, which is different from religious faith, for example, which is not justified with sufficient supporting evidence. Unfortunately, both are called faith, which causes confusion and leads to equivocation fallacies if one changes between these two definitions within a single argument.

Faith​

• Definition: Faith typically refers to a strong belief or trust in something, especially without empirical evidence or proof. It is often associated with religious or spiritual conviction.

I would quibble with that definition. Faith is not the belief, but rather, the means by which the belief was acquired.

 

[RestlessSoul]

No; spirits and souls don't exist, faith does.

You have faith in that doctrine?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'll assume that thought here means thought in words (verbal thoughts). One could expand that to all conscious phenomena, such as fear, desire, a sense of familiarity, or feeling sleepy - nonverbal thoughts or mental states.

Faith is not a category of thought. It's a path to belief - a method of acquiring a belief.

I'm not feeling all that philosophical at the moment, so I'll have to seek your comment again later

I guess I would say that animals probably have more non-verbal thoughts than people do, but people probably still have a lot of them. Of if they have them, they then would probably like to attach verbal content to their thought experiences, with a kind of automatic expediency, being that we are word creatures.

As to the phrase 'conscious phenomena' - I guess what I mean, to build on your idea of what thought is, is just to reference all of the feelings and words than occur in one's brain. And that faith is one among many things in that broad category, would be the thesis of the thread

 

[I Am Hugh]

Or if in all instances, of thought, you must join an original thought with the importance that is imagined in separate thoughts, that are then joined to the original. Your education about what god is, doesn't occur in a vacuum. But all cases, it all seems to be just an exercise in brain activity

What isn't? The Latin word credit means believer. Credentials, credible. accredited, etc. Faith simply means trust.

 

[Nakosis]

It seems that faith' seems to be something that just happens in one's head, in the same way as a random or intended thought would. The moment you have faith in a god, or anything, doesn't seem to be markedly distinct as a brain based thinking activity, as would you were to think of a chair, or think of a fish, whether doing that was random or intended.

And so if you say, 'I believe in God,' with great enthusiasm, how is that neurologically different than if you were to say, 'I believe in the chair,' or 'I believe in the fish,' with great enthusiasm.

Sure, you might be vest the idea of God with special importance, and probably more importance than you would vest in your idea of the chair, or the fish. So then, faith might be a measure of importance - but in the same way that a thought is not physically visible, it doesn't seem like the measure of importance that any thought has, is physically very visible, or measurable.

An 'act of faith' can seem to be display the importance you have in your thoughts, but that still doesn't seem to show us what the literal importance of your thought was. You might of had a thought that god exists, but you might joined that thought with a separate thought about how important that is, which seems to mean that imagined the first thought to be important, with the second one. So then that begs the question, if any single thought has intrinsic importance

Or if in all instances, of thought, you must join an original thought with the importance that is imagined in separate thoughts, that are then joined to the original. Your education about what god is, doesn't occur in a vacuum. But all cases, it all seems to be just an exercise in brain activity

Well, thoughts can be rational or irrational. Irrational meaning not based on sound logic or lacking sound reasoning.
Faith I'd see as a subset of thought. So an irrational thought that you believe to be true.
Also note, it is not only religion people have irrational thoughts about. We all have rational and irrational thoughts.
One can have faith in science, irrational thoughts about science.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well, thoughts can be rational or irrational. Irrational meaning not based on sound logic or lacking sound reasoning.
Faith I'd see as a subset of thought. So an irrational thought that you believe to be true.
Also note, it is not only religion people have irrational thoughts about. We all have rational and irrational thoughts.
One can have faith in science, irrational thoughts about science.

Good point, yeah. Probably no one has strictly rational or irrational thoughts.

 

[Audie]

It seems that faith' seems to be something that just happens in one's head, in the same way as a random or intended thought would. The moment you have faith in a god, or anything, doesn't seem to be markedly distinct as a brain based thinking activity, as would you were to think of a chair, or think of a fish, whether doing that was random or intended.

And so if you say, 'I believe in God,' with great enthusiasm, how is that neurologically different than if you were to say, 'I believe in the chair,' or 'I believe in the fish,' with great enthusiasm.

Sure, you might be vest the idea of God with special importance, and probably more importance than you would vest in your idea of the chair, or the fish. So then, faith might be a measure of importance - but in the same way that a thought is not physically visible, it doesn't seem like the measure of importance that any thought has, is physically very visible, or measurable.

An 'act of faith' can seem to be display the importance you have in your thoughts, but that still doesn't seem to show us what the literal importance of your thought was. You might of had a thought that god exists, but you might joined that thought with a separate thought about how important that is, which seems to mean that imagined the first thought to be important, with the second one. So then that begs the question, if any single thought has intrinsic importance

Or if in all instances, of thought, you must join an original thought with the importance that is imagined in separate thoughts, that are then joined to the original. Your education about what god is, doesn't occur in a vacuum. But all cases, it all seems to be just an exercise in brain activity

Difference is they're opposites

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

animals probably have more non-verbal thoughts than people do

OK. It looks like your meaning of thought was more than just ideas in words.

By that definition, animals have ONLY nonverbal thought.

people probably still have a lot of them

It's not just probably. We definitely have conscious content that is nonverbal.

Probably no one has strictly rational or irrational thoughts.

Here's another place I'd go further than your probably and say definitely.

Irrational thought is not a bad thing as long as we don't use it to modify our belief set. Irrational just means not a product or derivative of reason. All nonverbal thought is irrational. Instincts are irrational, but can be lifesaving. An infant doesn't use reason in the act of nursing. Reason is not involved in enjoying a sunset or feeling thirsty, although reason might help get to where a beautiful sunset is expected or help you slake that thirst. Passions aren't reasoned. Moral intuitions aren't reasoned. None of these are rational and none are knowledge.

The value of reason applied to the senses and memory is to manage these irrational experiences to favor having the desirable ones while avoiding the undesirable ones as much as possible, as with that sunset and drink. Reason gets you to the beach of a tropical island sipping a pina colada, but reason isn't involved in the irrational (unreasoned) but pleasant experiences that result.

This idea of rational thought versus irrational passions is an old one. The mind has been compared to a horse and rider, the horse representing the passions and motivations, the rider being the reason that is applied to regulate them to optimize experience. We need both. Lose your passions and the ability to experience pleasure (called anhedonia in psychiatry, a term that applies to major depression) and you become suicidal. If the rider passes out, the horses may cause the death of both horse and rider, as with foolish people who live short, impulsive lives.

As to the phrase 'conscious phenomena' - I guess what I mean, to build on your idea of what thought is, is just to reference all of the feelings and words than occur in one's brain.

By conscious phenomena I mean the assortment of conscious experiences we have including sensory perceptions like images, emotions, urges and desires, pleasure and pain sensations, memories, and any other kind of conscious experience one has as the subject experiencing that parade of phenomena centered in the theater of the mind.

that faith is one among many things in that broad category, would be the thesis of the thread

You already know that I don't consider faith conscious content or thought. It one of a few means of acquiring beliefs, those beliefs being conscious content/thought

Faith simply means trust.

You'd probably agree that faith is several words (or, if you prefer, one word with several definitions). The idea of trust applies to two of them: justified belief ("I have faith that my car will likely start the next time I turn the key") and unjustified belief (faith in a god).

But the word has other meanings. Faithful means loyal, a religious faith (the Jewish faith) is a set of ideas and practices, we can act in good or bad faith (speaks to integrity versus deception), and Faith is also a girl's name.

This seems to be another meaning for faith: "Full faith and credit is the requirement, derived from Article IV, Section I of the Constitution, that state courts respect the laws and judgments of courts from other states."

I just ask people not to conflate justified and unjustified faith. The only thing that they have in common is that they're both beliefs.

 

[YellowFeather]

Hebrews 11:1 Now FAITH is the substances of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Even though we cannot see GOD our Faith is the power to believe in GOD. When our Faith is true to God, we grow closer to God and he gives us true love that we can feel. Without faith it is empossible to please God.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What isn't? The Latin word credit means believer. Credentials, credible. accredited, etc. Faith simply means trust.

and in spanish I guess, the word 'creo' seems to refer to thought, or I guess belief

 

[amorphous_constellation]

OK. It looks like your meaning of thought was more than just ideas in words.

By that definition, animals have ONLY nonverbal thought.

I suppose it is then. But then, what exactly happens when the words 'roll over,' or 'fetch' hit a dogs brain?

Irrational thought is not a bad thing as long as we don't use it to modify our belief set. Irrational just means not a product or derivative of reason. All nonverbal thought is irrational. Instincts are irrational, but can be lifesaving. An infant doesn't use reason in the act of nursing. Reason is not involved in enjoying a sunset or feeling thirsty, although reason might help get to where a beautiful sunset is expected or help you slake that thirst. Passions aren't reasoned. Moral intuitions aren't reasoned. None of these are rational and none are knowledge.

The value of reason applied to the senses and memory is to manage these irrational experiences to favor having the desirable ones while avoiding the undesirable ones as much as possible, as with that sunset and drink.

It seems like a reductive force then, in large part. The intuition, or the raw unworded feeling that is had, is always abstract. It has to be whittled down to something one can understand, so then one has to map it out with goals and words. But all along, it has to be something one decides one still wants, after this process gets done, as it seems that the motivation underlying abstract wants has to survive the process of being whittled down by conscious mappings. But on the other hand, animals can still do things with great precision, sans thought. These squirrels outside jump from tree to tree at top speed. Human type thoughts, if they could have them, would only distract them

By conscious phenomena I mean the assortment of conscious experiences we have including sensory perceptions like images, emotions, urges and desires, pleasure and pain sensations, memories, and any other kind of conscious experience one has as the subject experiencing that parade of phenomena centered in the theater of the mind.

Yes, and I guess my thread was only arguing that faith is among all of that

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

what exactly happens when the words 'roll over,' or 'fetch' hit a dogs brain?

I wouldn't confuse responding to recognizable commands with thinking in words. It is a form of reasoning, however, but not active reasoning. Induction is reasoning and occurs passively following repetitive association.

The intuition, or the raw unworded feeling that is had, is always abstract. It has to be whittled down to something one can understand, so then one has to map it out with goals and words.

Yes, we can name and describe the nonverbal "thoughts" with words.

animals can still do things with great precision, sans thought. These squirrels outside jump from tree to tree at top speed.

Be careful with your use of the word thought. Sometimes, you mean both verbal and nonverbal thought, but it looks like here you mean only thought with words.

But yes, non-human animals can do much without words. So can we.

my thread was only arguing that faith is among all of that

And you know that I disagreed. We've agreed that thought is the sum of conscious phenomena, and includes not just thought in words, but assorted other conscious experiences like seeing, wanting, intending, fearing, etc.

But faith isn't among these. Idea believed by faith are, but not faith itself, which is way that some beliefs are acquired by some (most, I'd say, but not all) people.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'll assume that thought here means thought in words (verbal thoughts). One could expand that to all conscious phenomena, such as fear, desire, a sense of familiarity, or feeling sleepy - nonverbal thoughts or mental states.

Faith is not a category of thought. It's a path to belief - a method of acquiring a belief.

Ideas believed by faith might be strongly held intuitions such that there is a reality outside of consciousness or that one has libertarian free will, or it can be an idea that somebody was told and believed.

I guess to return to the squirrels I see, jumping high in the trees, we see that they operate by intuition, of a nonverbal kind. But we could argue that they are 'believers,' though their intuitions and actions line up in such a way that they don't require a path to belief, when they are mature adult squirrels. It is because their faith and their action merge successfully, in almost a 1:1 mapping

In the human, intuition can sometimes seem to allow for precise actions, as can thinking in facts and words, when the nonverbal falls short

You can also have conscious faith in intuitions, and also in facts, or in a mixture of these. Faith also seems like it can be unconscious, and this is somehow tied up in intuition, mostly, but it probably can also be directed toward an explicit thought

Perhaps what I was trying to do was to avoid giving faith too much of a special category, so as to make un-thought like. At best, it looks like a 'thought-bridge,' connecting intuitions and discrete thought, with support.