What is the difference between the jiva and the atma?

[ajay0]

Assuming you are using the term ego as in "self-consciousness" as opposed to pride.
The term ahaṃ (~ ego) is derived etymologically as ahéyatvāt ahaṁ nāmā - thus, (approx. translation) that which cannot be 'discarded' by any 'being' or 'thing'. The svarūpa-déha of the jīva itself has innate potencies that illumine the (being dependent on brahman) three material bodies. That is to say, the functioning of the material mind is owing to the innate potency of the jīva, with each material body only conditioning it and/or contracting its capability. The innate potency of the jīva itself is derived from the potency of brahman, the two being co-eternal. The mind is a composite of manas, buddhi, citta, cétana, and ahaṅkāra. Thus, ahaṁ is the potency of the jīva to be conscious of itself, its existence, time, space and its dependence on brahman in the svarūpa-déha. The conditioned jīva in the liṅga-śarīra has a misplaced sense of identity with the material bodies owing to svarūpācchādika māyā (or gross tamas) and assumes kartṛtva (~ doer-ship) and bhoktṛtva (~ enjoyer) with a misplaced sense of independence.


Thus taken in its purest form, it is the inalienable cognisance or consciousness of being. In its gross form it is the misplaced sense of identity with mind, thoughts, experiences, body, possessions, etc.
Just to illustrate, it can be considered to devolve thus:

Brahman
(ultimate ahaṁ - that without which nothing can exist, always knows itself as such ref: bṛhad-upan.)
⬇︎
Jīva - svarūpa déha
(dependent self - knowing brahman as ultimate ahaṁ achieves perfection)
⬇︎
Ahaṅkāra tattva
- influences the liṅga, sūkṣma, and sthūla śarīra-s
(principle of jaḍa prakṛti that induces sense of identity with material bodies in the jīva)
Ref: śrīmadbhagavadgītā अ-8 श्लो-4-7
⬇︎
Ahaṅkāra
- conditioning in the sūkṣma (mind) and sthūla (my body)
(resultant ego, pride, sense of independent kartṛtva and bhoktṛtva, "ahaṁ" ie., self-importance, and "mamakāra" ie., possessiveness, and attachment etc).​

अहङ्कारतत्त्वनियामकरुद्रान्तर्गतमध्वेशकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

This has been very intelligently put for easy and clear comprehension by Tattvaprahav , and can be used as handy reference material in discussions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Brahman .. (..
always knows itself as such. ref: bṛhad-upan)​

Tattva, how? Why should it be conscious? What purpose does this consciousness fulfill? But then I realize that it is the view of your sampradaya (my homage to Srimad Madhvacharya).
कृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Shantanu]

Pranam everyone

I sometimes get confused about this topic, the difference between the jiva and the atma. I have read that the jiva is the subtle body, the mind and the senses, does the atma live within the jiva? And are there other subtle layers of the body? Can the jiva be destroyed? I am reading Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Prameya Ratnavali, and soon his other works, and wanted insight from other people here Hopefully this time i'll be able to fully understand the answers

Thank you for reading

Let me explain my take on this hopefully in simple terms:

Jiva is just the term used for the individual being meaning the human being living a life. Jivatman is the body, the mind and senses in which the word atma or atman means soul force that comes from consciousness energy which is differentiated into the gunas raja, tamas and sattva (Brahman being physical energy and consciousness energy combined). Atman is totally blended with the body, the mind and the senses which then constitutes the life of the individual. Beyond jivatman is the Paramatman (Sri Krishna Consciousness) with which the jivatman connects if he or she surrenders to God and God as Paramatman then comes into the life of the individual and guides the individual in his or her daily activities through the atman or soul force.

You will be aware that advaitists are equate Atman with Brahman but Brahman is more than just Atman or Consciousness energy.

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Namaste Aup ji,

Tattva, how? Why should it be conscious? What purpose does this consciousness fulfill?

Each of your three questions presume the acceptance of "conscious-ness". I have never come across any insentient entity asking such questions. A rubber tyre, say, will never ask how, why, or what (or anything at all). Those that do, we (referring to those of us who accept the vedas as pramāṇa)consider them as caitanya-yukta (~ conscious entities). Also, i think the very rationale for "purpose" is established in consciousness. Or else, to apply your own contention, how, why, and for what purpose would a rubber tyre bother about how, why, or what?

I realize that it is the view of your sampradaya

Actually, i've tried to present a general view of all vedānta schools. The difference (broadly) b/w schools is that śrī madhva accepts all the categories (tattva-s) to be real yet dependent on one brahman svatantramasvatantraṁ ca tattvaṁ dvividhamiṣyté), śrī rāmānuja holds them to be real yet different modes of same reality (aśéṣacidacitprakāraṁ brahmaikaméva tattvaṃ), śrī saṅkara holds them to be apparent (vimataṁ mithyā drṣyatvāt) categories in one ultimate reality.

श्रीभारतीशमुख्यप्राणान्तर्गतकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Aupmanyav]

Each of your three questions presume the acceptance of "conscious-ness". I have never come across any insentient entity asking such questions. A rubber tyre, say, will never ask how, why, or what (or anything at all). Those that do, we (referring to those of us who accept the vedas as pramāṇa) consider them as caitanya-yukta (~ conscious entities). Also, i think the very rationale for "purpose" is established in consciousness. Or else, to apply your own contention, how, why, and for what purpose would a rubber tyre bother about how, why, or what?

Thanks, Tattva. It is me Aupmanyav, a creature in the Vyavaharika mode who is asking the question. It is not the atoms of my body (i.e., Brahman, the substrate of all that exists) who are asking this question. Yes, I am sentient. That I am sentient is 'maya'. Going to the basics, I should not be sentient. Yes, I am 'caitanya-yukta', even the atom are 'caitanya-yukta', but how do we know that what makes the atoms also is 'caitanya-yukta'? According to science, 'what exists', because of its property (of causing 'maya'), appears as atoms in 'Vyavaharika'. That does not mean that 'what exists' has undergone any change. Just thoughts.
श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Shantanu]

Why should it be conscious? What purpose does this consciousness fulfill?

Well Aup: Are you conscious or not: I will say you believe you are conscious, that is alive. So Brahman is also conscious because you are part of Brahman.

 

[Aupmanyav]

'I' exist in 'Vyavaharika' mode. 'I' do not exist in 'Paramarthika' mode. The 'Vyavaharika' mode need consciousness. The 'Parmarthika' mode does not need it.

 

[Shantanu]

'I' exist in 'Vyavaharika' mode. 'I' do not exist in 'Paramarthika' mode. The 'Vyavaharika' mode need consciousness. The 'Parmarthika' mode does not need it.

What exists in the Paramarthika mode?

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is only for enlightened people like me. However, a hint - Energy.

 

[Shantanu]

That is only for enlightened people like me. However, a hint - Energy.

In your system of understanding, does Energy exist both in Vyavaharika and Parmarthika modes in exactly the same composition?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, energy is the same, both in 'Paramarthika' and 'Vyavaharika'.

 

[Shantanu]

Yeah, energy is the same, both in 'Paramarthika' and 'Vyavaharika'.

Is Brahman the Hindu name for the Energy of the universe?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Don't use capital E. That has a different connotation. For me, yes, energy is Brahman.

 

[Shantanu]

Don't use capital E. That has a different connotation. For me, yes, energy is Brahman.

Is Paramarthika the term used to indicate that Vyvaharika is an illusion?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, 'Parmarthika' is the absolute truth, 'Vyavaharika' is what is percived by us in the world, an illusion.

 

[atanu]

Pranam everyone

I sometimes get confused about this topic, the difference between the jiva and the atma. I have read that the jiva is the subtle body, the mind and the senses, does the atma live within the jiva? And are there other subtle layers of the body? Can the jiva be destroyed? I am reading Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Prameya Ratnavali, and soon his other works, and wanted insight from other people here Hopefully this time i'll be able to fully understand the answers

Thank you for reading

A metaphorical explanation of Jivatman (jiva) and Paramatman (atman) by Ramana Maharshi, drawing from Shankara.

God illumines the mind and shines within it. One cannot know God by means of the mind. One can but turn the mind inwards and merge it in God.

Bhagavan pointed to his towel and said, ‘We call this a white cloth, but the cloth and its whiteness cannot be separated; and it is the same with the illumination and the mind that unite to form the ego. The following illustration is given in the books:

An iron rod is compared to the mind. Fire joins it and it becomes red hot. It glows and can burn things like fire, but still it has a definite shape unlike fire. If we hammer it, it is the rod that receives the blow, not the fire.

The rod is the jivatman, the fire the Self or Paramatman. The mind can do nothing by itself. It emerges only with the illumination and can do no action good or bad, except with the illumination. But while the illumination is always there, enabling the mind to act well or ill, the pleasure or pain resulting from such action is not felt by the illumination, just as when you hammer a red hot iron it is not the fire but the iron that gets the hammering.

If we control the mind, it does not matter where we live.

- Gems

 

[Shantanu]

Yeah, 'Parmarthika' is the absolute truth, 'Vyavaharika' is what is percived by us in the world, an illusion.

What kind of things happen in Paramarthika: do we human beings exist in Paramarthika mode?

 

[Aupmanyav]

No. Only physical energy exist.

 

[Shantanu]

No. Only physical energy exist.

Then what is it that creates the illusion of Vyvaharika?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Property of Brahman, the inherent fluctuations of physical energy.
"In theoretical physics, Feynman diagrams are pictorial representations of the mathematical expressions describing the behavior of subatomic particles (Aup. adds: physical energy)."
Feynman diagram - Wikipedia