What is the difference?

[Jason]

What is the difference between Sunni and Shia?

After a quick skim through, I'm surprised no one has put it this way yet:

Sunni are like Jews and Shi'a like Christians. Shi'a Believe in the fulfillment of and coming of the twelve Imams Prophesied by Mohammad like how Christians Believe the Jesus is the Messiah and Sunnis do not Believe the twelve Imams have come like how Jews do not Believe the Messiah has come. The split occured over whether Ali was the first of the twelve Imams Prophesied.

 

[Onkara]

After a quick skim through, I'm surprised no one has put it this way yet:

Sunni are like Jews and Shi'a like Christians. Shi'a Believe in the fulfillment of and coming of the twelve Imams Prophesied by Mohammad like how Christians Believe the Jesus is the Messiah and Sunnis do not Believe the twelve Imams have come like how Jews do not Believe the Messiah has come. The split occured over whether Ali was the first of the twelve Imams Prophesied.

Hi Jason
What is the solution (if any)?

 

[Jason]

Hi Jason
What is the solution (if any)?

Judeochristianislamormonism. Shi'a are correct. Twelth Imam has come and ascended to his throne in Our coming Kingdom. It's our turn to do Our part with what he was Prophesied to bring about and unite with all Believers in the Most High.

 

[Onkara]

Judeochristianislamormonism. Shi'a are correct. Twelth Imam has come and ascended to his throne in Our coming Kingdom. It's our turn to do Our part with what he was Prophesied to bring about and unite with all Believers in the Most High.

I couldn't have predicted that answer, thanks!
If I understanding Juedeochrsitanislammormonism is the solution, I am still not sure how there can be any way except Islam according to the Quran unless you see Juedeochrsitanislammormonism clearly defined in the Quran?

 

[Jason]

I couldn't have predicted that answer, thanks!
If I understanding Juedeochrsitanislammormonism is the solution, I am still not sure how there can be any way except Islam according to the Quran unless you see Juedeochrsitanislammormonism clearly defined in the Quran?

To be honest I haven't really spotted any clear references to Judeochristianislamormonism in the Holy Qur'an, but many references among the Prophesies of the Holy Bible like how there are references to Mohammad and Islam.

I've written on how the Holy Qur'an confirms the Holy Bible here; facebook.com/pages/Judeochristianislamormonism/141477365915048?sk=wall. I'm working on similar articles covering inter-Abrahamic relations and Prophesies concerning each but am not sure when I'll finish or publish it. Basically Isaiah 30:25-26, Revelation 19:11-21 and the five in one family Prophesies of the Gospels are some pretty major ones concerning Judeochristianislamormonism. Revelation 12 Prophesies the twelth Imam and basically says that the seventh trumpet will have been blown and God's Kingdom on Earth established by 2134. And I'm sure you're aware of Mohammad and Islam being Prophesied in Zechariah 5:1-4, John 16:7-15 and Revelation 2:26-28.

 

[muslim-]

I am a Shia Muslimah and what you tell me is simply something I have NEVER heard from anybody who is a fellow Shiite. We believe the Qur'an is 100% sahih , perfect and complete.

If you really havent, then you dont know much about Shiasm, or you are practicing Taqiyyah (a known Shia belief)...

Heres Shia scholars (in the second half of the video), some who even teach at the top Shia school/Hawza in Qum, Iran, affirming this.

[youtube]OvRuzP4jM0c[/youtube]
What Shia's say about the Quran - YouTube

Al Noori Al tubrusi, one of the top Shia scholars in history wrote a book titled "The Final Verdict on the affirming the alteration of the book of the Lord of Lords.".

 

[muslim-]

The differences are huge. Traditionally Sunni scholars consider Shia scholars non Muslim, but Shia laymen Muslim being excused for ignorance and not knowing much. Anyone who says its just political clearly doesnt know much about the differences in belief.

Some of these differences are :

1- Shias believe its okay to call upon Ali, Hussain etc for help. Or ask for intercession. They go to graves and ask the dead for help. Sunnis believe the fundamental message of Islam was eliminating the middle man. Because even idol worshippers used to say "These are our intercessors with Allah" and "We only worship them so that they may bring us closer to Allah". But they fully believed in God and that Hes the source of all help in the end.

Traditionally, when this is mentioned, instead of talking about the point, they'd just call the Sunni... a "Wahabi".

2- Shias believe that the vast majority of the prophets companions are apostates, including the mother of believers, the prophets wife Aisha raa.

3- Shia believe in 12 infallible Imams, Ali raa, and his sons. Sunnis respect him very much and his sons, but dont consider them infallible at all.

4- Shias believe in temporary marriages that can last from an hour or two, to months or a year. Sunnis dont.

5- Shia scholars collect money called "Khums" which literally means 1/5th, they'd take 20% from their earnings, saying its for the poor, although Sistani and Khoui now are accused (even by other Shia scholars) of being billionaires from it. Sunnis dont have this concept at all. There is something called Khums in Sunni Islam but its totally different in almost everything, and its not even applicable today. (which is why some Sunnis might have never heard of it even).

6- They differ in the sources from which they take their religion, mainly hadeeths. They believe the companions of the prophet peace be upon him, including the closest ones and the first to believe, are apostates, so they dont accept their narrations. They have their own narrations, which Sunnis believe to be mostly madeup, not authentic, with weak or fabricated chains of narrators. And that the whole concept of hadeeth authentication sciences wasnt even introduced to Shia thought until centuries later, and just copied from Sunni books. Anyhow this is a long topic but it leads to very, very different beliefs.

7- At the end of time, right before the return of Jesus Christ , a guy named Muhammad will come (called Al Mahdi) who is a just ruler who will spread justice (and will be there when Jesus returns) . Just a just ruler, and not born yet.

Shias on the other hand, believe him to be an infallible Imam, who was born to Al Hasan Al Askari ( who Sunnis believe never had any sons ), but he entered a cave and disappeared, and will return as an infallible Imam who will change the world.

8 - Shias dont believe the Friday prayer is obligatory until Al Mahdi appears. Til then, the (real) president of Iran Khamen'i is the "deputy" of Al Mahdi! (officially holds the title)

9- Shias scholars believe that the Qur'aan was corrupt. Its not an essential belief, but to Sunnis enough to take a person out of the folds of Islam. The Qur'aan was transmitted by those who they consider apostates afterall.

10- Shias beat themselves every year. Look up "Ashura pictures" and you'll see what I mean.

11- Shias have the concept of Taqiyyah, which is essentially lying. Some argue "oh its in case of necessity" (ie if you had a gun pointed at your head etc) Not true, I dont want to make this post very long but in their belief its clearly a virtue, described as "the most beloved thing on earth" and "Taqiyyah is my religion and religion of my forefathers" as they narrate in their books from Imam Jafar Al Sadiq (who Sunnis say wasnt even Shia)

12- Cursing is a part of their religion. Cursing the closest companions of the prophet peace be upon him. In Iran, on top of the grave of the killer of Umar (A magian) they built a "mosque" with a supplication of cursing at the door. This is with official support of Shia scholars and the s0-called "deputy" of Al Mahdi.

13- Shias consider Sunnis not Muslim, for not believing in what they consider to be a pillar of faith, believing in 12 infallible Imams. Out of courtsey or Taqiyyah they might say otherwise, but their top scholars are very, very clear on this.

Finally, this is about mainsteam Shias, known as 12 Imamers. Theres other offshoots, some more extreme (Such as Alawis, rulers of Syria) and some are practically closer to Sunni than Shia and dont hold these beliefs, like Zaidees in Yemen. However, some in Iran today, call Ali God, in front of everyone, and no one ever condemns it.

Sunnis believe Shiasm was started by one (Abdullah Ibn Saba) who wanted to destory Islam from the inside, this discrediting the main figures.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Sunnis believe the fundamental message of Islam was eliminating the middle man.

This should have led to the Sunnis being a "Quran only" community. But it is more at home with the Hadiths than any other Islamic sect. I wonder why. Further, the messenger (middle-man?), far from being eliminated, is invoked by Sunnis in every other sentence by saying "Peace be Upon Him".

 

[muslim-]

This should have led to the Sunnis being a "Quran only" community. But it is more at home with the Hadiths than any other Islamic sect. I wonder why. Further, the messenger (middle-man?), far from being eliminated, is invoked by Sunnis in every other sentence by saying "Peace be Upon Him".

Im not sure how you conclude that it should have led them to be a Quran only community, while they are the ones who preserved both Qur'aan and Sunnah.


Anyhow, traditionally "peace be upon him" is a prayer to God, for the prophet. Saying radhi Allahu Anhu after the name of a companion is also a prayer to God saying "May Allah be pleased with him" (Quran refers to those He is pleased with)

Directing any prayer to the prophet or Hussain or Ali or Jilani or whoever, is traditionally considered an action of disbelief.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him before he died said (what means) The : "Do not overpraise me as the Christians overpraised the son of Mary (i.e. 'Isa/Jesus alaihi assalam). I am His slave, so say: Allah's slave and Messenger." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

 

[muslim-]

Sistani and Khoui now are billionaires from Khums

I forgot to mention that in todays Shiasm theres a hierarchic system. Leading up to the so called "deputy" of Al Mahdi. The ones who wear black turbans are usually the ones who collect khums money. They'd have agents/representatives in each area, and the representative gets 30% of the 20% they collect.

In Sunni Islam, there's no central authorities at all or hierarchies. Nor is there worship of Ali, Fatima, or Al Hasan, or Al Hussain

A minority of Shias refused to submit to the mullas of Iran and the "deputy" of Al Mahdi. However they also were silenced in various ways. The most recent being Al Husaini from Lebanon, who they falsely accuse of supporting Israel and working as a spy, after he became very vocal against the "deputy".

So practically, Shias pretty have a religion of their own, despite what some might say out of courtesy etc.

 

[muslim-]

Why do you believe the majority of Shia are Persian? There is a lot of Pakistanis/Indians and even Arabs who are Shiite, as far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with nationalism.

You sure?

[youtube]Qyjjuh8UIfk[/youtube]
why do shiites / shia / shias hate Umar bin Khatab ( sahaba ) ??? - YouTube

 

[Jason]

The differences are huge. Traditionally Sunni scholars consider Shia scholars non Muslim, but Shia laymen Muslim being excused for ignorance and not knowing much. Anyone who says its just political clearly doesnt know much about the differences in belief.

Some of these differences are :

1- Shias believe its okay to call upon Ali, Hussain etc for help. Or ask for intercession. They go to graves and ask the dead for help. Sunnis believe the fundamental message of Islam was eliminating the middle man. Because even idol worshippers used to say "These are our intercessors with Allah" and "We only worship them so that they may bring us closer to Allah". But they fully believed in God and that Hes the source of all help in the end.

Traditionally, when this is mentioned, instead of talking about the point, they'd just call the Sunni... a "Wahabi".

2- Shias believe that the vast majority of the prophets companions are apostates, including the mother of believers, the prophets wife Aisha raa.

3- Shia believe in 12 infallible Imams, Ali raa, and his sons. Sunnis respect him very much and his sons, but dont consider them infallible at all.

4- Shias believe in temporary marriages that can last from an hour or two, to months or a year. Sunnis dont.

5- Shia scholars collect money called "Khums" which literally means 1/5th, they'd take 20% from their earnings, saying its for the poor, although Sistani and Khoui now are accused (even by other Shia scholars) of being billionaires from it. Sunnis dont have this concept at all. There is something called Khums in Sunni Islam but its totally different in almost everything, and its not even applicable today. (which is why some Sunnis might have never heard of it even).

6- They differ in the sources from which they take their religion, mainly hadeeths. They believe the companions of the prophet peace be upon him, including the closest ones and the first to believe, are apostates, so they dont accept their narrations. They have their own narrations, which Sunnis believe to be mostly madeup, not authentic, with weak or fabricated chains of narrators. And that the whole concept of hadeeth authentication sciences wasnt even introduced to Shia thought until centuries later, and just copied from Sunni books. Anyhow this is a long topic but it leads to very, very different beliefs.

7- At the end of time, right before the return of Jesus Christ , a guy named Muhammad will come (called Al Mahdi) who is a just ruler who will spread justice (and will be there when Jesus returns) . Just a just ruler, and not born yet.

Shias on the other hand, believe him to be an infallible Imam, who was born to Al Hasan Al Askari ( who Sunnis believe never had any sons ), but he entered a cave and disappeared, and will return as an infallible Imam who will change the world.

8 - Shias dont believe the Friday prayer is obligatory until Al Mahdi appears. Til then, the (real) president of Iran Khamen'i is the "deputy" of Al Mahdi! (officially holds the title)

9- Shias scholars believe that the Qur'aan was corrupt. Its not an essential belief, but to Sunnis enough to take a person out of the folds of Islam. The Qur'aan was transmitted by those who they consider apostates afterall.

10- Shias beat themselves every year. Look up "Ashura pictures" and you'll see what I mean.

11- Shias have the concept of Taqiyyah, which is essentially lying. Some argue "oh its in case of necessity" (ie if you had a gun pointed at your head etc) Not true, I dont want to make this post very long but in their belief its clearly a virtue, described as "the most beloved thing on earth" and "Taqiyyah is my religion and religion of my forefathers" as they narrate in their books from Imam Jafar Al Sadiq (who Sunnis say wasnt even Shia)

12- Cursing is a part of their religion. Cursing the closest companions of the prophet peace be upon him. In Iran, on top of the grave of the killer of Umar (A magian) they built a "mosque" with a supplication of cursing at the door. This is with official support of Shia scholars and the s0-called "deputy" of Al Mahdi.

13- Shias consider Sunnis not Muslim, for not believing in what they consider to be a pillar of faith, believing in 12 infallible Imams. Out of courtsey or Taqiyyah they might say otherwise, but their top scholars are very, very clear on this.

Finally, this is about mainsteam Shias, known as 12 Imamers. Theres other offshoots, some more extreme (Such as Alawis, rulers of Syria) and some are practically closer to Sunni than Shia and dont hold these beliefs, like Zaidees in Yemen. However, some in Iran today, call Ali God, in front of everyone, and no one ever condemns it.

Sunnis believe Shiasm was started by one (Abdullah Ibn Saba) who wanted to destory Islam from the inside, this discrediting the main figures.

1. Some do, kind of like Catholics. That doesn't mean all do though, nor does it mean it's a requirement imposed upon Shi'a. There's only one worthy of intercession and He's already interceded so no need to ask.

2. Shi'a don't think the companions were apostates, they just think it was disrespectful to ignore who the Prophet named his successor by appointing three caliphs before Ali. As for Aisha, they just think she was out of line going to battle accusing Ali of having Uthman assinated.

3. This is true but not all revere them like that, also similar to Catholics and "infallible" popes. Practically every Sunni and Shi'a alike consider Mohammad to be infallible, so blah.

4. Mutah is not legal in every Shi'a society, and Shariah is for the Muslims of the region to worry about, not for foreigners to judge unless tyranny and oppression is occuring.

5. Again, Shariah is for the Muslims of the region to worry about, not for foreigners to judge unless tyranny and oppression is occuring.

6. Bihar Alanwar...

7. Completely true.

8. Kahmen'i is ayatollah and he's one of several equals with the title scattered throughout the middle east. What of it?

9. You're taking a rogue scholar's opinion as representative of all Shi'a when if you asked any of them they'd say that is absurd, the Holy Qur'an is infallible.

10. The majority renounce that mourning ritual, you've already pointed out that some pray to their early leaders alive and well in Our coming Kingdom, why would they mutilate themselves over the living? It's not a Shi'a requirement, but some have chosen to practice it.

11. That's crazy. Maybe you've heard some more rogue scholars saying bogus crap again but practically every Shi'a knows that God can only utter Truth (38:4), so the lie can't be attributed to Him, but the Mercy of having one's life spared from the oppressor must be His (74:55-56).

12. The Righteous of every Religion abhor the cursing of others, Shi'a are no exception. Though strange you would point this out in an accusatory tone considering Muslims are commanded to make examples of transgressors. If a murderer isn't a transgressor, who is?

13. Again, not all Shi'a Believe the 12 Imams to be infallible, and most wouldn't say you're not Muslim if you don't Believe they were born into the world as Prophesied by Mohammad, but disbelief in such proclamations of their fellow Believers is very unbecoming in a Muslim and the disbelief in itself is by all means un-Islamic. Surely those that Believe in God, the Last Day and live a Righteous life have nothing to fear.

 

[asa120]

hey jason youre talking aboute islam normal ordinaire islam
Judeochristianislamormonism is islam
islamique belif is to belive in god and all the messenger and the profets like moses and jesus and jhon and all of them
2islamique belif is to belive in all the books of god like the taura for moses the zabor for david and gospel for jesus but the first massage were changed and only the holy quran is preotected
think aboute it

 

[Jason]

hey jason youre talking aboute islam normal ordinaire islam
Judeochristianislamormonism is islam
islamique belif is to belive in god and all the messenger and the profets like moses and jesus and jhon and all of them
2islamique belif is to belive in all the books of god like the taura for moses the zabor for david and gospel for jesus but the first massage were changed and only the holy quran is preotected
think aboute it

The first message wasn't changed significantly. Granted one would want to be sure to use a couple of good translations and pay close attention to footnotes for more accurate wordings, but you can view Codex Sinaiticus online which was accessible in Mohammad's time and compare to modern translations to discover that you've been lied to that the previous Scriptures have been significantly altered. Other than that, yes, Judeochristianislamormonism is Islam. Thank you for noticing.

 

[muslim-]

1. Some do, kind of like Catholics. That doesn't mean all do though, nor does it mean it's a requirement imposed upon Shi'a. There's only one worthy of intercession and He's already interceded so no need to ask.

Theres quote a few. Ali, Hussain, Fatima, Al Mahdi, and the list is long really.

[youtube]P-jsrfCjkzg[/youtube]
Shia worship of the grave of Al Hussain, is this Islam? Monotheism, or Tawheed - YouTube

Here, someone really close to Khamen'i, worships them in public. In Sunni Islam, this constitutes disbelief. But in their culture its very common.

[youtube]K6GXrd8BMcc[/youtube]
IRANIAN SUNNI scholar explains: Who are the REAL Gods of the Shia? - YouTube



2. Shi'a don't think the companions were apostates, they just think it was disrespectful to ignore who the Prophet named his successor by appointing three caliphs before Ali. As for Aisha, they just think she was out of line going to battle accusing Ali of having Uthman assinated.

Of course they do. Why do you think they dont accept Sunni hadeeths? Because to them they are narrated by apostates.


One of the leading scholars of the Shia, Al-Kashshi, reported that Abu Ja'far said: "All people (including the Sahaba) became apostates after the Prophet's death except for three." When asked who they were, he replied, "Al-Miqdad ibn Aswad, Abu Dharr (Zarr), and Salman (Al-Farsi) as mentioned in the verse, 'If he (Muhammad) dies or is killed, will you then turn on your heels.'" (Rijal Al-Kashshi p.12-13) .

They consider them apostates. This is no secret. Only sometimes out of taqiyyah they'd say no, but now with all the televised debates they always admit this, their books have chapters on the topic. On top of this, anyone who disbelieves in Imamate of the 12 Imams, in their view, is a disbeliever also, as its an article of faith.

[youtube]-Z5uZVjfWzo[/youtube]
Shia celebration of death of Aisha (raa) , cake and balloons -- psychotic hatred - YouTube

I have much to support each point but I will try to summarize because the post is already long.


3. This is true but not all revere them like that, also similar to Catholics and "infallible" popes. Practically every Sunni and Shi'a alike consider Mohammad to be infallible, so blah.

Yes, in Islam prophet Muhammad is infallible in conveying the message. Its natural to believe this about any prophet. But in Shiasm if you dont believe in the 12 Imams you are not Muslim.



4. Mutah is not legal in every Shi'a society, and Shariah is for the Muslims of the region to worry about, not for foreigners to judge unless tyranny and oppression is occuring.

It is practiced in every Shia society. In Iran they have legalized brothels. In Lebanon its regularly practiced.

[youtube]P7AJsqaRGgQ[/youtube]
Shia girl does Mut'a Zina with NINE MEN in just over ONE YEAR! - YouTube

Theres also another woman who was complaining about her daughter who got pregnant from mutah and she lashed out against the Shia sheikh who was there.


In Bahrain also they started a website for mutah marriages.

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Wherever theres a large number of Shias, theres Mut'ah.

5. Again, Shariah is for the Muslims of the region to worry about, not for foreigners to judge unless tyranny and oppression is occuring.

Talking about different religious beliefs has nothing to do with regions, as we are discussing thoughts. Besides, how do you know im not from the region?


9. You're taking a rogue scholar's opinion as representative of all Shi'a when if you asked any of them they'd say that is absurd, the Holy Qur'an is infallible.

Al Noori Al Tubrusi is is certainly not rogue scholar. He wrote a whole book about it and not a single shia scholar ever said he was a disbeliever.

Besides, in the following video, starting from 2:24, see how major scholars of their say the same thing. These are the people that teach in the Hawza of Qum and Najaf, not just anyone. Yet you'll never, ever hear of a Shia sheikh clearly condemning them. In Sunni Islam this is apostasy with the consensus of scholars.

[youtube]OvRuzP4jM0c[/youtube]
What Shia's say about the Quran - YouTube

10. The majority renounce that mourning ritual, you've already pointed out that some pray to their early leaders alive and well in Our coming Kingdom, why would they mutilate themselves over the living? It's not a Shi'a requirement, but some have chosen to practice it.

Let them practice whatever. Its just certainly has nothing to do with Islam.

Warning : The end of this video has gruesome images.
[youtube]7WlLLYQY6mY[/youtube]
‫

11. That's crazy. Maybe you've heard some more rogue scholars saying bogus crap again but practically every Shi'a knows that God can only utter Truth (38:4), so the lie can't be attributed to Him, but the Mercy of having one's life spared from the oppressor must be His (74:55-56).

In Shiasm, Taqiyyah is a virtue and has nothing to do with necessity. The prominent Shia scholar Al Khou'i in "Sharh Al Arwat Al Worthqa (vol 2)" said that even when safe, it should be practiced ( with Sunnis ) so that the person would get used to the practice and practice it well when needed, and its also a form of "courtesy" It also includes "praying behind a Sunni leading the prayer", to which Shia Dr AbdulHameed Al Najdi admitted to in a famous televised debate on Al Mustaqillah channel.


And you wont find any Shia sheikh daring to say anything against Al Khoui due to his high status among Shias on the top of the hierarchy. Al Khoui says it is "liked" when not fearing harm, and obligatory when fearing harm.


Im talking about narrations in which they'd go with a Sunni to pray for a person who had passed away, and tell them to curse "a thousand curses" and so on.

In Al Kafi, the Shia equivilent to Al Bukhari, it says "Taqiyyah is the most beloved thing on the face of the earth"


12. The Righteous of every Religion abhor the cursing of others, Shi'a are no exception. Though strange you would point this out in an accusatory tone considering Muslims are commanded to make examples of transgressors. If a murderer isn't a transgressor, who is?

I agree that every religion abhors this, except the Shia religion. Thats why they have the famous dua of cursing "Al Jibt and AL taghoot" (meaning Abu Bakr and Umar raa)


Here, its written on top of the grave (which they turned into a mosque) of a non Muslim who killed Umar raa. This is in Iran today and despite protests, they still have it. So its not some "rogue" person here or there. Just watch clips of Shia TV you'll see stuff like this all the time. I mean they have curses written on the entrance of the place they use to worship, whats more than that? Not a single prominent Shia scholar has ever condemned this.

[youtube]fBBkTrqic5E[/youtube]
‫

"He who recites this Dua (two idols of Quraish) is (in terms of reward) like a marksman who have shot 1000 arrows in the battle of Badr and Ohad beside the Prophet (S.A.W.W.)."


- Mustadrak al-Wasa'il, v4, p405, Hadith #5021
- Bihar al-Anwar, v82/85, p260, Hadith #5 (Since you mentioned Bihar Al Anwar as authentic)

Its a long supplication, full of curses, you can google it.



13. Again, not all Shi'a Believe the 12 Imams to be infallible, and most wouldn't say you're not Muslim if you don't Believe they were born into the world as Prophesied by Mohammad, but disbelief in such proclamations of their fellow Believers is very unbecoming in a Muslim and the disbelief in itself is by all means un-Islamic. Surely those that Believe in God, the Last Day and live a Righteous life have nothing to fear.[/QUOTE]

All 12 Imamer Shias (mainstream) consider them infallible and a source of religion and their quotes are obligatory to follow. This is basic knowledge to any Shia. Anyone who doesnt believe in their Imamate is a non Muslim to them.


[youtube]trs-rVcSbHM[/youtube]
Dreams / Aspirations of the Iranian Regime - True face of the regime & attitude towards Sunnis - YouTube

 

[Jason]

1. Some do, kind of like Catholics. That doesn't mean all do though, nor does it mean it's a requirement imposed upon Shi'a. There's only one worthy of intercession and He's already interceded so no need to ask.

Theres quote a few. Ali, Hussain, Fatima, Al Mahdi, and the list is long really.

[youtube]P-jsrfCjkzg[/youtube]
Shia worship of the grave of Al Hussain, is this Islam? Monotheism, or Tawheed - YouTube

Here, someone really close to Khamen'i, worships them in public. In Sunni Islam, this constitutes disbelief. But in their culture its very common.

[youtube]K6GXrd8BMcc[/youtube]
IRANIAN SUNNI scholar explains: Who are the REAL Gods of the Shia? - YouTube



2. Shi'a don't think the companions were apostates, they just think it was disrespectful to ignore who the Prophet named his successor by appointing three caliphs before Ali. As for Aisha, they just think she was out of line going to battle accusing Ali of having Uthman assinated.

Of course they do. Why do you think they dont accept Sunni hadeeths? Because to them they are narrated by apostates.


One of the leading scholars of the Shia, Al-Kashshi, reported that Abu Ja'far said: "All people (including the Sahaba) became apostates after the Prophet's death except for three." When asked who they were, he replied, "Al-Miqdad ibn Aswad, Abu Dharr (Zarr), and Salman (Al-Farsi) as mentioned in the verse, 'If he (Muhammad) dies or is killed, will you then turn on your heels.'" (Rijal Al-Kashshi p.12-13) .

They consider them apostates. This is no secret. Only sometimes out of taqiyyah they'd say no, but now with all the televised debates they always admit this, their books have chapters on the topic. On top of this, anyone who disbelieves in Imamate of the 12 Imams, in their view, is a disbeliever also, as its an article of faith.

[youtube]-Z5uZVjfWzo[/youtube]
Shia celebration of death of Aisha (raa) , cake and balloons -- psychotic hatred - YouTube

I have much to support each point but I will try to summarize because the post is already long.


3. This is true but not all revere them like that, also similar to Catholics and "infallible" popes. Practically every Sunni and Shi'a alike consider Mohammad to be infallible, so blah.

Yes, in Islam prophet Muhammad is infallible in conveying the message. Its natural to believe this about any prophet. But in Shiasm if you dont believe in the 12 Imams you are not Muslim.



4. Mutah is not legal in every Shi'a society, and Shariah is for the Muslims of the region to worry about, not for foreigners to judge unless tyranny and oppression is occuring.

It is practiced in every Shia society. In Iran they have legalized brothels. In Lebanon its regularly practiced.

[youtube]P7AJsqaRGgQ[/youtube]
Shia girl does Mut'a Zina with NINE MEN in just over ONE YEAR! - YouTube

Theres also another woman who was complaining about her daughter who got pregnant from mutah and she lashed out against the Shia sheikh who was there.


In Bahrain also they started a website for mutah marriages.

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Wherever theres a large number of Shias, theres Mut'ah.

5. Again, Shariah is for the Muslims of the region to worry about, not for foreigners to judge unless tyranny and oppression is occuring.

Talking about different religious beliefs has nothing to do with regions, as we are discussing thoughts. Besides, how do you know im not from the region?


9. You're taking a rogue scholar's opinion as representative of all Shi'a when if you asked any of them they'd say that is absurd, the Holy Qur'an is infallible.

Al Noori Al Tubrusi is is certainly not rogue scholar. He wrote a whole book about it and not a single shia scholar ever said he was a disbeliever.

Besides, in the following video, starting from 2:24, see how major scholars of their say the same thing. These are the people that teach in the Hawza of Qum and Najaf, not just anyone. Yet you'll never, ever hear of a Shia sheikh clearly condemning them. In Sunni Islam this is apostasy with the consensus of scholars.

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What Shia's say about the Quran - YouTube

10. The majority renounce that mourning ritual, you've already pointed out that some pray to their early leaders alive and well in Our coming Kingdom, why would they mutilate themselves over the living? It's not a Shi'a requirement, but some have chosen to practice it.

Let them practice whatever. Its just certainly has nothing to do with Islam.

Warning : The end of this video has gruesome images.
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11. That's crazy. Maybe you've heard some more rogue scholars saying bogus crap again but practically every Shi'a knows that God can only utter Truth (38:4), so the lie can't be attributed to Him, but the Mercy of having one's life spared from the oppressor must be His (74:55-56).

In Shiasm, Taqiyyah is a virtue and has nothing to do with necessity. The prominent Shia scholar Al Khou'i in "Sharh Al Arwat Al Worthqa (vol 2)" said that even when safe, it should be practiced ( with Sunnis ) so that the person would get used to the practice and practice it well when needed, and its also a form of "courtesy" It also includes "praying behind a Sunni leading the prayer", to which Shia Dr AbdulHameed Al Najdi admitted to in a famous televised debate on Al Mustaqillah channel.


And you wont find any Shia sheikh daring to say anything against Al Khoui due to his high status among Shias on the top of the hierarchy. Al Khoui says it is "liked" when not fearing harm, and obligatory when fearing harm.


Im talking about narrations in which they'd go with a Sunni to pray for a person who had passed away, and tell them to curse "a thousand curses" and so on.

In Al Kafi, the Shia equivilent to Al Bukhari, it says "Taqiyyah is the most beloved thing on the face of the earth"


12. The Righteous of every Religion abhor the cursing of others, Shi'a are no exception. Though strange you would point this out in an accusatory tone considering Muslims are commanded to make examples of transgressors. If a murderer isn't a transgressor, who is?

I agree that every religion abhors this, except the Shia religion. Thats why they have the famous dua of cursing "Al Jibt and AL taghoot" (meaning Abu Bakr and Umar raa)


Here, its written on top of the grave (which they turned into a mosque) of a non Muslim who killed Umar raa. This is in Iran today and despite protests, they still have it. So its not some "rogue" person here or there. Just watch clips of Shia TV you'll see stuff like this all the time. I mean they have curses written on the entrance of the place they use to worship, whats more than that? Not a single prominent Shia scholar has ever condemned this.

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"He who recites this Dua (two idols of Quraish) is (in terms of reward) like a marksman who have shot 1000 arrows in the battle of Badr and Ohad beside the Prophet (S.A.W.W.)."


- Mustadrak al-Wasa'il, v4, p405, Hadith #5021
- Bihar al-Anwar, v82/85, p260, Hadith #5 (Since you mentioned Bihar Al Anwar as authentic)

Its a long supplication, full of curses, you can google it.



13. Again, not all Shi'a Believe the 12 Imams to be infallible, and most wouldn't say you're not Muslim if you don't Believe they were born into the world as Prophesied by Mohammad, but disbelief in such proclamations of their fellow Believers is very unbecoming in a Muslim and the disbelief in itself is by all means un-Islamic. Surely those that Believe in God, the Last Day and live a Righteous life have nothing to fear.

All 12 Imamer Shias (mainstream) consider them infallible and a source of religion and their quotes are obligatory to follow. This is basic knowledge to any Shia. Anyone who doesnt believe in their Imamate is a non Muslim to them.


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Dreams / Aspirations of the Iranian Regime - True face of the regime & attitude towards Sunnis - YouTube[/quote]
Look at the videos you post! Hypocrite! Those are all Sunnis explaining Shi'a Beliefs and some of them have nothing to do with the topic you posted them with. Like because they're in Arabic you think the only ones that will notice are your fellow Shi'a slandering Sunnis that just cheer you on as you lie through your teeth! Who in their right mind would listen to a Sunni explain Shi'a Beliefs? Look at you, condemn those that curse a murderer, yet you lie about and slander your fellow Muslims all over a public forum. Hypocrite!

 

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Look at the videos you post! Hypocrite! Those are all Sunnis explaining Shi'a Beliefs and some of them have nothing to do with the topic you posted them with. Like because they're in Arabic you think the only ones that will notice are your fellow Shi'a slandering Sunnis that just cheer you on as you lie through your teeth! Who in their right mind would listen to a Sunni explain Shi'a Beliefs? Look at you, condemn those that curse a murderer, yet you lie about and slander your fellow Muslims all over a public forum. Hypocrite!

They are Shia, and famous Shias on Shia TV channels all the time. In videos in which theres Sunnis, they are only introducing/ commenting on the videos. If you dont know the Shia scholars dont embaress yourself by saying they arent Shia. Anyhow, the ones below are ALL Shias, and known Shia scholars.

Also, name one lie. You cant, because these are mostly Shias scholars in the videos. So the only thing left you can do is just resort to insults and name-calling.

See, when people resort to name-calling and display bad manners, this only proves their weak positions. Also, most of the videos of Shia scholars have English subtitles. And of course im explaining how Sunnis perceive Shias.

Using foul language and cursing is common among Shias and in particular, their so-called sheikhs. Look how this one talks. Not only does he used foul language, but he says its in accordance to religious texts of theirs.

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Look at how a Shia great scholar and imam talks! - YouTube

And another one here (la'natullah alaih " means curse be upon him) in the beginning of this video. The one on the second part is Ayatullah Al Burqui, who had a higher status than Al Khumaini himself, but he became Sunni, then was shot in Iran, and after surviving he was jailed for life and died in prison, may Allah have mercy on his soul.

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Shia Scholar using foul language against Sahaba (ra) & Ahl-Sunnah [EngSubs] - YouTube

Also, a third one, cursing Aisha raa, the prophets wife, and Abu Bakr raa, and Umar raa, during his prayer!

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Shia scholar Yasir Al-Habib curses the companions and wives of the Prophet (pbuh) in his prayer. - YouTube

A fourth one here, not only curses, but explains the virtues of cursing, and why its good! And that if you curse every morning your sins will be forgiven!

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shia cursing prayer (Duaa) - Umar ibn al-Khatt

In other languages theres 100 times more than this. The next is just a song made by Shias cursing Umar, praising his killer, with images of their "cursing prayers" on the entrance of the "mosque" they built over the grave of the Majoosi, Abu Lu'lu'ah.

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Shia nasheed: Long live Abu Lu Lu (cursing Omar) - YouTube

Finally this video says it all.

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The Shia Kuffar on Umm Al-Mumineen Aaisha - YouTube

That said, I will not discuss with you because you bring nothing to discuss.. only insults.