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What Is The Government For?

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Why is a government needed for any of this? Plenty of communities exist and flourish without governments.

You are defining "government" in a very narrow way. A tribe has a chief or ruling body of some sort or perhaps rule by the elders. As people form larger groups, this becomes more formal but government exists whereever any one person or small group makes decisions for the whole.

2+2=4 is objective.

'4' here is never variable. It can never be 6.
2+2 may not equal 4. LOL Two Plus Two Equals Four, But Not Always
Likewise, even though 20 x 2 = 40 and 20 x 3 = 60, we cannot correctly say that the person with a score of 60 has three times the extraversion as the person with 20 or that the person with a score of 40 has twice as much. We cannot compare scores in terms of multiples, because the scale has no true or absolute zero. It is not a ratio scale. :D
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In your opinion, what is the government's job?

I think if you asked the government, its number one priority is to sustain the government. They're happy to draft their citizens during times of war to sustain its own interests. They are happy to increase its size to whatever is necessary to remain in control of its citizenry.

It's up to the citizens of a nation to limit the size and power of government which may include the need for the occasional rebellion to keep its government under control.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The purpose of establishing some form of government is to increase, maintain, and protect the well-being of the people that establish it. If it does not do this, there is no logical or moral reason for the people to abide it. If it does not do this equitably, there is no logical or moral reason for those being neglected to abide it. And no government can stand for long when some or all of the people it purports to govern choose not to abide it.
 

dingdao

The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching
Enki "Civilization is a gift that contains a curse and once taken can never be given back"
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Other animals appear to do just fine. Have we a right to a long, painless life? Could we have, perhaps, just let evolution taken its course and women's bodies become more adept? Human bodies as a whole more resistant? The rise of cities only contributed to disease spreading. Certainly infant mortality seems bad, but is it for the worst? People dying is exactly what we need to keep populations stable, babies, women or otherwise. With governments, we have successfully achieved overpopulation, morbid obesity, climate change, mass extinctions, holocausts and potential nuclear war.


In fairness, I'm not sure administrating units in human cultures (governments or otherwise) can be said to be responsible for this. At least not singly. It seems to me that the complex administrative units most of us think when we imagine "government" arose to address role diversification that happened with the rise of agriculture. Failure to adequately self-regulate - and in particular bypass usual ecological limiting factors - is what more directly led to some of the nasty downsides. Those failures to self-regulate seem more ideologically driven than the fault of governments, per se. For example, the American infatuation with the Myth of Progress is by far the larger driver behind rapid adoption of new technology. The rapid adoption means the needed oversight and regulation is often absent or falls short of what would be needed to avoid things like overpopulation, climate change, and so on.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Being that there are many theories, which I did read, I pulled you up and wanted to know what you meant. It's clear that no-one agrees on one definition of this so what good is it just saying for the 'common good'?

By common good I mean, in essence, "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare" because it's generally understood shorthand for all that which it encompasses for our form of government. National defense, the building and maintenance of infrastructure, law enforcement, the justice system, social security, social safety nets, public education, public utilities, and so on.

I am in the UK, but I'm not sure that matters. I think it's in the common good of the people to be religious; most of my fellows disagree. I think it would be in the common good to abolish meat-eating. Again, many disagree.

Your examples are about individual freedom, not the common good. Someone else's individual freedom is to be an atheist, or to enjoy a good steak. There has to be a balance between individual rights and the common good. It's not a perfect system, it requires compromise.

Also, the Constitution is very vague. What is 'justice'? What is 'general welfare'?
These words have definitions. They have historical and judicial precedent. They have a common understanding.

US people certainly don't seem to think that means free healthcare

What? I'm a "US people", and like many I think we should have a universal healthcare system.

but they can carry guns.

And?

Justice according to whose moral theory? Kant? Mill? Singer? Justice for who? Abused animals? Foreigners?

We have justice for abused animals - and for "foreigners." Is it a perfect system? No.

People are rarely as uniform as this. If they were we wouldn't have 10s of political parties, none of which have huge support considering.

No one says you have to be uniform to agree that when you call 911 or 999 because your family member is having a heart attack, that you can expect that medical help is on the way. Why? Because our systems of government provide for it. This is so the least fortunate among us is provided the same service as those who could afford to buy the entire hospital they're taken to. No one says you have to be uniform to expect that if a hostile nation attacks our countries that our defense systems will be mobilized and other lives will be put on the line to protect ours.

We vote, and the majority creates our political reality. Is it perfect? No. Because humans aren't perfect. But we don't live in a private little bubble where all we have to care about is ourselves. We live in overlapping communities from family unit to national identity and that means we have to care about more than just ourselves in order for society to function in any reasonable way.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I can see where you are coming from but this seems a little far fetched. Nothing like this is ever guaranteed and people seemed to be more equal when it came to recieving food &c. in hunter-gatherer societies, if we are to believe what the historians and archaeologists tell us. In HG societies, as far as I am led to believe, women weren't second-class, food was communally shared and shelter also. No-one seemed to need any guarantors. It's only after we had governments that we started needed to fight for these things. One might argue that agrarian societies produced governments, needful or not, as well as inequality.
I am not versed on hunter-gatherer societies, but it seems to me that, as people living together, there is still the needs of "the people," and that living together as a group provides those needs. Even the implicit government is government (that's a lesson I learned on RF, albeit about implicit atheism). The guarantee is provided not by an individual or group, but by the consistent provision of safety, security, prosperity, and growth. That's government.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Basically, you need government to keep people orderly, so that they can aspire to higher things than basic survival.
Other animals appear to do just fine. Have we a right to a long, painless life? Could we have, perhaps, just let evolution taken its course and women's bodies become more adept? Human bodies as a whole more resistant? The rise of cities only contributed to disease spreading. Certainly infant mortality seems bad, but is it for the worst? People dying is exactly what we need to keep populations stable, babies, women or otherwise. With governments, we have successfully achieved overpopulation, morbid obesity, climate change, mass extinctions, holocausts and potential nuclear war.

Also, most people (at least on Europe) prior to the introduction of sugar had perfectly healthy teeth; peasants in particular:


"The average medieval European peasant actually had very strong teeth and few problems with decay. In fact, based on surveys of archaeological data, only 20 percent of teeth found at medieval sites showed any sign of decay. By contrast, some early 20th century populations showed decay on 90 percent of teeth, and today even with all our modern knowledge half of American teenagers have tooth decay."


While I see your point, all those good things you mentioned come at a huge, huge cost. Is it worth it?

(I'm not taking a side here, I'm just sort of playing).
IMO other animals don’t do “just fine.”
Yes, in agrarian/HG societies you (often) have a sense of community, but as I and others have pointed out, you still have some form of rule of law even in a single village.
The communal sharing also tends to be within the one village or town, but even there the weak are often outcast and die miserable deaths, whether they started strong or not.
Without government-supplied organizations like police and fire departments, as well as mail, road, garbage, health, waste maintenance services, etc....things get messy very fast. :eek: When the society grows to be large enough for more than one gathering/village, then rules of how those two or more townships should relate to one another and protect one another from other groups of towns and other societies must also be formed.
Greater and greater numbers of any animal type, particularly an animal that communicates and socially interacts, as well as remembers and holds hatred for others, requires oversight, and enforcers of said oversight.


But getting back to the animals; yes, we could live like small troupes of monkeys and simply survive, being happy to reproduce enough offspring to survive the hardships of life without technology. And when whatever large stressor comes along, we will become extinct, just like any herd or species of grazing animals or fish.

Perhaps that is the point of government. Government allows a species, particularly a species with long-term memory, language and tool use capability, as well as the ability to plan years in advance to avoid extinction, by keeping people safe and orderly, so that over time they can aspire to higher things than basic monotonous survival.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
In your opinion, what is the government's job?

To ensure the ruling class stays in power and suppress everything and anything that opposes it through brute force and domination as it applies respectively.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
To crush the populace, to drive them to produce, & to stifle their lamentations.


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