What is the most fundamental?

[Bunyip]

Because it wouldn't mean much if we didn't walk there together. And I already did state what I think is most fundamental in the first post of the thread.

Now I'd like to see if people can understand how whatever they thought was most fundamental is actually the same thing as what I first stated. And if I can walk to that conclusion with anyone, then we can go further into understanding what is most fundamental of nature, existence, and ultimately answer the questions that people generally think are unanswerable regarding existential origin and what existence is, for real.

Sorry Bobby, I don't understand what you are asking or what your answer means.

 

[Bobbyh]

Sorry Bobby, I don't understand what you are asking or what your answer means.

I'm sorry, I understand. You can look up the meaning of my used words with a dictionary website if you're interested. I know it's a thick usage of deep concepts not easily entertained though. Maybe some others posts and more input from others will help make it clearer in the future.

 

[Bunyip]

I'm sorry, I understand. You can look up the meaning of my used words with a dictionary website if you're interested. I know it's a thick usage of deep concepts not easily entertained though. Maybe some others posts and more input from others will help make it clearer in the future.

I know what all the words mean Bobby.

 

[Bobbyh]

I know what all the words mean Bobby.

So you understand, and you don't understand? Interesting.

 

[Bunyip]

So you understand, and you don't understand? Interesting.

Yes Bobby, I understand what the words mean, but not how you are using them. I note from reading the thread that everyone else trying to engage with you seems to he having the same problem.

 

[Bobbyh]

Yes Bobby, I understand what the words mean, but not how you are using them. I note from reading the thread that everyone else trying to engage with you seems to he having the same problem.

Oh.

I asked what is the most fundamental thing.

People responded with various words in attempt to answer.

I attempted to explain how the meaning and definition of the words chosen all share a common theme that is fundamental to the meaning of the words. And that this common core is also equal to my original answer about relationships forming information.

And now I am waiting to see if anyone understands this connection or not.

If so, any thoughts or questions about it?

If not, which part is confusing?

 

[Bunyip]

Oh.

I asked what is the most fundamental thing.

People responded with various words in attempt to answer.

I attempted to explain how the meaning and definition of the words chosen all share a common theme that is fundamental to the meaning of the words. And that this common core is also equal to my original answer about relationships forming information.

And now I am waiting to see if anyone understands this connection or not.

If so, any thoughts or questions about it?

If not, which part is confusing?

Most fundamental to what? The question; 'What is the most fundamental thing' doesn't actually mean anything, it is unanswerable.

 

[Bunyip]

...

That is not a god I would want to be like. I would never send people to eternal torment - it's wicked.

 

[Bobbyh]

Most fundamental to what? The question; 'What is the most fundamental thing' doesn't actually mean anything, it is unanswerable.

I'm sorry, but I challenge that statement and claim that it is answerable.

"The question" has meaning just as the words in it do. And as for the answer, I've already stated what I think it is, and I'm trying to walk us through understanding, but it requires thinking about the definitions of the words and their meanings, and what the meanings have in common.

I've illustrated a commonality in regards to asymmetry, and I've asked if you understand that so far.

All thoughts and words are human interpretations of nature. Its how we see the world, but its not the world. However it is the world in the fact that everything is "the world". If you can understand this first connection I'm trying to make then maybe you can understand more about it as we continue.

Have you ever heard of Injective Function?

It's a mathematical logic that describes this same phenomena. But it's under the context of "preserving distinctness". Injective function - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm attempting to walk us through understanding this expression, and the ones we've stated about what's fundamental, to show how they're actually the same expression at the core and have the same meaning.

I would attempt to walk us through how this same phenomena is fundamental to all relationships and all information that can or ever would become relationships or information. I would attempt to illustrate across many fields of study how and why this common theme is prevalent in 99.9% of everything and anything, not just linguistics or reason.

And lastly I would attempt to walk us through the objective origin (the other.1%) of relationships and information. Thus answering the question in a manner that puts an end to questioning existences' origin, and leaves us only with everything else.

 

[Bunyip]

I'm sorry, but I challenge that statement and claim that it is answerable.

"The question" has meaning just as the words in it do. And as for the answer, I've already stated what I think it is, and I'm trying to walk us through understanding, but it requires thinking about the definitions of the words and their meanings, and what the meanings have in common.

I've illustrated a commonality in regards to asymmetry, and I've asked if you understand that so far.

All thoughts and words are human interpretations of nature. Its how we see the world, but its not the world. However it is the world in the fact that everything is "the world". If you can understand this first connection I'm trying to make then maybe you can understand more about it as we continue.

Have you ever heard of Injective Function?

It's a mathematical logic that describes this same phenomena. But it's under the context of "preserving distinctness". Injective function - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm attempting to walk us through understanding this expression, and the ones we've stated about what's fundamental, to show how they're actually the same expression at the core and have the same meaning.

I would attempt to walk us through how this same phenomena is fundamental to all relationships and all information that can or ever would become relationships or information. I would attempt to illustrate across many fields of study how and why this common theme is prevalent in 99.9% of everything and anything, not just linguistics or reason.

And lastly I would attempt to walk us through the objective origin (the other.1%) of relationships and information. Thus answering the question in a manner that puts an end to questioning existences' origin, and leaves us only with everything else.

Hopefully someone else can help you.

 

[Bobbyh]

Hopefully someone else can help you.

Is there a more appropriate area in the forum to discuss this? Or maybe this isn't the right forum? I would think people would be interested in understanding reality, especially Non-Theists who reject fantasy as real. Why else would there be a Non-Theist section? LOL

 

[Bunyip]

Is there a more appropriate area in the forum to discuss this? Or maybe this isn't the right forum? I would think people would be interested in understanding reality, especially Non-Theists who reject fantasy as real. Why else would there be a Non-Theist section? LOL

I think you are in the right forum, I just don't really understand what you are asking.

 

[Bobbyh]

I think you are in the right forum, I just don't really understand what you are asking.

lol... alright well, I'll be here if anyone cares to explore this further. At the least... I'll try again in the future. :/

 

[Rick O'Shez]

However this description, "Impermanence" is more fundamental than @Spiny Normans because it gets right to the asymmetrical core using a single term rather than the two of Fragility and Uncertainty combined. The term fundamental refers to getting to the bottom of things, and how simple they can be.

Yes, fragility and uncertainty can be seen as aspects of impermanence. And impermanence can be seen as an aspect of conditionality.

 

[Bobbyh]

Yes, fragility and uncertainty can be seen as aspects of impermanence. And impermanence can be seen as an aspect of conditionality.

Isn't that cool? haha. I didn't tell you guys what to say, and I went first, but we all said the same thing even though we used different words and thoughts. At the core the meaning is the same.

There's details sprinkled and layered on top of these fundamental asymmetry's that define uniqueness for everything, but its all compiled of countless identical asymmetry's of the exact same nature.

We can look at some very different aspects of observed reality and call out the same function in various behaviors.

Pick any natural subject matter to start with like biology or astrophysics or whatever... We can go over how every aspect unique to any part of the subject is an interpretation of the same function.

Once satisfied that it's possibly of some significance (even if very little) then we can explore reasoning the origin and what it may mean about ourselves.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Isn't that cool? haha. I didn't tell you guys what to say, and I went first, but we all said the same thing even though we used different words and thoughts. At the core the meaning is the same.

But I'm still not clear what your answer to the OP question is. What exactly did you mean by "relationships required for forming information"?

 

[`mud]

Like I've said before:
Life is Stuff,
the absence of the presence,
a memory of one's doing,
the performance of one's life.
~
Good mornin Spiny.
~
'mud

 

[Bobbyh]

But I'm still not clear what your answer to the OP question is. What exactly did you mean by "relationships required for forming information"?

Ah...Alright let me try to walk through it step by step.

Relationship = the way in which two or more concepts are connected, or the state of being connected. (everything is connected at least through the fact that everything shares existence in some fashion)

Information = a variable or set of variables (could be anything from a single binary bit, to an elephant in Spain, it doesn't matter)

Information only becomes coherent in the presence of comparable relationships. Without any comparable relationships to acknowledge or experience to endure... there isn't coherent information to be perceived. There must be at least two identities to signify a difference, this difference or differences is coherent information.

Information is the product of relationships. (and in case you're wondering...yes, relationships also require information to form, but we're not talking about that yet.)

So my opinion or "answer" to the OP expressed, was that whatever is required for enabling relationships to form information, is what is most fundamental in existence.

Then you guys answered with terms that when broken down can be interpreted as expressing a form of asymmetry in the root of what they mean.

So what I think is unclear at this point is how "asymmetry" relates to "my answer". (or is it something else?)

A relationship is asymmetrical. It's two or more things. And when associated together there's unique information related to their associations that we can then perceive.

I should maybe define asymmetry....

Everything expresses asymmetry at the core. Say we have a circle and cut it in half. We can claim the halves are symmetrical portions of the circle. We'd would be claiming both halves are the same. But this is only true superficially and not an actual property of the two halves. It's impossible for any two things to be the same thing. Both halves don't occupy the same space so in that regard they are asymmetrical still. If two havles were to contain 100% identical properties of each other, then they would actually just be one half. There wouldn't be anything to set them apart.

So essentially we're at the point where I'd claim asymmetry is the most fundamental thing. And it's the thing we've coincidentally all fundamentally expressed in regards to what is most fundamental.

We should not be agreeing with my answer yet, but we should be able to agree that it's maybe an unclear possibility at best. And if there was more solid evidence... and if we cover any ideas that reject this notion. Then we should be able to take it more serious and continue exploring it.

Does that make sense? Words are hard.

 

[Bunyip]

Well sure in that sense asymmetry is fundamental. Now what?

 

[Bobbyh]

Like I've said before:
Life is Stuff

"Stuff" is not specific enough for me to understand the origin of existence and why or what we are, objectively. I hear "stuff" and I think of the 80's horror movie "The Stuff".

Also the question is "what is most fundamental about existence?", I'm not referring to life specifically.

However, short of specifics, I believe this is the best answer that could be given. You win the stuff!