Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
OR, the fact that we all HAVE a beginning (hallmark has made millions selling cards about it) is proof that we don't have free will.idea said:Our agency is proof that we have no beginning
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OR, the fact that we all HAVE a beginning (hallmark has made millions selling cards about it) is proof that we don't have free will.idea said:Our agency is proof that we have no beginning
It is not God's experience of time that vitiates free will. It is the way WE experience time that does. If God exists, I can understand that HE would not be limited by time, but WE are.F'htang!
What you are assuming is God's omniscience as a form of precognition, narrowing our will to strictures, vitiating the will itself. Not so. God is also omnipresent, so there is no need for precognition, because he witnesses you before you do something, as you do something and after. Precognition to the omnipresent would be like someone riding a bike 500 miles, when they have a jet. Redundant, illogical, etc.
It is not God's experience of time that vitiates free will. It is the way WE experience time that does. If God exists, I can understand that HE would not be limited by time, but WE are.
It is not God's experience of time that vitiates free will. It is the way WE experience time that does. If God exists, I can understand that HE would not be limited by time, but WE are.
Abulafia said:Erm...uhuh....your point being...?
My point is this. When theists are presented with this problem, they often try to explain it away by talking about how God experiences time or about how He is not bound by time and so forth. But God's omniscience makes free will impossible because of the way WE experience time, not God. It is because WE are bound by time that foreknowledge makes choice impossible. How God experiences time is irrelevant.
Abulafia said:Very well, sure, you can't fly to Timbuktu either. That, technically, is impeding your free-will too. Every limitation that you possess, is "placed" in "design" by God. But the free-will of choosing between the actions you possess, and utilizing your form of reason, however, is not impeded. You are not omniscient, so you are lacking there as well, but you CAN choose between A and B or even *gasp* C !
Oh really? If God knows you will choose one of them, is it possible you will choose one of the other two? Remember, if you choose one of the other two, then God was wrong. Also keep in mind that this argument does not need to know which choice God foreknows; only that he does foreknow one of them.
Abulafia said:I thought we eliminated the misguided concept of foreknowledge? Apparently not. :areyoucra
God knows you as you enact option C....
He observes and knows you at this moment, a still fragment of time, but populated by one of God's many presences...he knows you now and what you are doing.
God knew you before you enacted option C...
God watches you mull over the options, weighing to consequences. He hears you think of A, B, and C, a silent, waiting entity.
God knew you after you encated option C...
God sees you suffer or benefit from the option you chose, silently relating your distance from Him.
If we suppose that God, seperate from the universal laws, theories and possibilities, as manifests of Himself, logically is independent of the influence of time, not regarding it as a constant, 1 dimensional force, but rather, a process where he exists in all places, time and otherwise. He exists at the Greek Pantheon, at the fall of Rome, at Custer's Last Stand, at Janissary Plaza, and at London's Great Evacuation (LGE)...precognition and foreknowledge is not a method of his omniscience...
You did not answer my question. With this "explanation" of how God knows I will pick option C, is it possible I will pick A or B when the time comes for ME?
Beaudreaux said:You did not answer my question. With this "explanation" of how God knows I will pick option C, is it possible I will pick A or B when the time comes for ME?
Abulafia said:First you must elaborate your question. Explain what you take to be impeding your choice.
First things first. Before we start discussing the nature of the impedance, we must determine if there IS impedance. Either way, you should be able to answer the question. Is it possible I will do A or B when God knows I will do C?
what is the origin of sin/evil? who is to blame for the existence of sin?if god is omnibenevolent, and his creation is perfect in his image, and there is no sin in heaven, then how could lucifer(god's creation) sin against god in heaven? it is said that lucifer felt pride and/or jealousy, both of which are considered sins. so how could sin be part of lucifer's nature if god created him in the absence of sin?
The very thing you have as yet to show...the impedance......First things first. Before we start discussing the nature of the impedance, we must determine if there IS impedance.
The very thing you have as yet to show...the impedance......
Abulafia said:I wager a yes, aside from precognition, which I have already demonstrated is not an agent of the Godhead, infallible extrapolation, which is likewise, or corresponding to the linear view of time.
Mestemia said:The very thing you have as yet to show...the impedance......
Oh! So, when God knows I will do C, it is possible I might NOT do C. So, it is possible for God to make an error?
Abulafia said:I admit: That was a mistake...you of the clever phrasings. :cover:
Aside from that dreadful post, refer to my earlier one.