What Is The Purpose Of Baptism?

[shmogie]

That is a belief, not a fact!

So, then reject it, your choice, your consequences if you choose unwisely.

 

[sooda]

So, then reject it, your choice, your consequences if you choose unwisely.

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Jan 18, 2019 · From the September/October 2017 Biblical Archaeology Review. As to Solomon’s Temple as described in the Bible, its plan is known in temple architecture of the Levant since the second millennium B.C.E. and continues into the Iron Age. Although archaeology cannot determine whether Solomon was the builder of the Temple,...

 

[shmogie]

The Catholics and the Orthodox are the real Christians. We trace straight back to the Apostles and to Jesus Christ Himself, as our founder and God.

Really, ya think ? a system of theological thought arose after the Apostles. It added to and perverted the teachings of the Apostles.

I can trace my lineage as a denomination of one to the Apostles as well.

Back through Protestant teachers, to Luther to the Bible and the words of the Apostles themselves, to Jesus Christ.

My denomination has no alleged infallible men who produced what the Apostles never intended.

 

[e.r.m.]

Judah hated Israel

Ok, thank you.

 

[Cooky]

Really, ya think ? a system of theological thought arose after the Apostles. It added to and perverted the teachings of the Apostles.

I can trace my lineage as a denomination of one to the Apostles as well.

Back through Protestant teachers, to Luther to the Bible and the words of the Apostles themselves, to Jesus Christ.

My denomination has no alleged infallible men who produced what the Apostles never intended.

There's no infallable men in Catholicism either, which is a common misconception.

 

[e.r.m.]

Really, ya think ? a system of theological thought arose after the Apostles. It added to and perverted the teachings of the Apostles.

I can trace my lineage as a denomination of one to the Apostles as well.

Back through Protestant teachers, to Luther to the Bible and the words of the Apostles themselves, to Jesus Christ.

My denomination has no alleged infallible men who produced what the Apostles never intended.

Matthew 3:9 John 8:39 Lineage does not legitimize anyone's claim, doing as they did legitimizes the claim.

 

[shmogie]

There's no infallable men in Catholicism either, which is a common misconception.

What is it when the pope speaks ex cathedra ?

 

[Cooky]

What is it when the pope speaks ex cathedra ?

There's debate, even within Catholic circles, on the differences between private and public revelation, and with the "Keys", as to "binding and loosening" -who is actually binding and loosening.

Matthew 16:19

...We do believe that the Holy Spirit plays an active role in the Sacraments of the Church, and that Jesus Christ is the head and founder of the Catholic Church.

Some may say it is God Himself speaking through the pope when he speaks Ex-Cathedra.

 

[Cooky]

So while even, one Catholic might argue that the Keys are only applicable in Canon Law, and another argues that they apply in doctrines and teachings, through God, there are still other mysteries in the Church. Such as why we take communion, and what purpose it truly serves. But we do it without even knowing why, because we believe Jesus commanded it of us, and that is sufficient in itself.

 

[e.r.m.]

Christ's baptism set the stage for all Christian baptism.

Do you have any scriptural evidence the Christ baptism set the stage for all Christian baptism? I've never read, or heard of any Scripture where it is expressed that anyone's baptism was connected back to Jesus's baptism.

but those who underwent John's baptism had to be baptized again in order to become a disciple of Christ. Quote]Later, Gentiles also came to Christ and dedicated their lives to God as disciples of his son.

Right on!

All received the same baptism as part of that arrangement. It was a public display so that all would know that one was a Christian. It was a symbolic 'death, burial and resurrection' of the old self...dying to one's former course, (and religion) and being raised up to put God's will first in your life. (1 Peter 3:21)

Do you have any scriptural or historical evidence that this baptism was a public display so that all would know that one was a Christian, that it was a symbolic death, burial of the old self? Neither 1 Peter 3:21, nor any passage that I've ever seen has ever purposed baptism as a display to announce one's Christianity. Nor have I ever seen a scripture that described the purpose of baptism as symbolism for the death and burial of the old self. I've seen a bunch of people try to insert those terms themselves into certain passages to make it sound like it's the passages that are saying that, but I've never seen any passage say these things for itself.

As far as all concrete evidence points to, no one in the first century ever got baptized as a public display so that all would know that one was a Christian, nor as symbolism for the death and burial of the old self. I doubt that anyone in the New Testament church ever heard of these things.

Infant baptism is meaningless because it takes the act as being significant rather than the intent. No one can make a decision to serve God as a baby. It requites vows and educated decisions to fully accept the Christian way of life for yourself. Infant baptism is a proxy arrangement that finds no support whatsoever in the Bible. One has to be of an age where they can make that choice for themselves. There is no age limit but the one undergoing baptism must fully understand what it means.

Right on!

 

[shmogie]

There's debate, even within Catholic circles, on the differences between private and public revelation, and with the "Keys", as to "binding and loosening" -who is actually binding and loosening.

Matthew 16:19

...We do believe that the Holy Spirit plays an active role in the Sacraments of the Church, and that Jesus Christ is the head and founder of the Catholic Church.

Some may say it is God Himself speaking through the pope when he speaks Ex-Cathedra.

There is only one Church, the Body of Christ, itś members are all those throughout the generations who are, or were, saved by Grace, by faith alone.

Denominations mean nothing to God.

 

[e.r.m.]

I could never figure it out myself when I was a Christian. It was just another vague vapid ritual that nobody really knew what it was all about or what it meant.

Eventually I put it all down as nonsense.

Sounds like you had bad teachers to begin with. How much studying in the Bible did you do on the matter?

 

[e.r.m.]

There is only one Church, the Body of Christ, itś members are all those throughout the generations who are, or were, saved by Grace, by faith alone.

According to whom?

 

[e.r.m.]

It seems to me infant baptism is a magical act that transforms a baby into a creature acceptable to God.
Adult baptism is a ceremony celebrating an oath or contract.

Both are fiction.

 

[e.r.m.]

Actually, it is heretical to denounce infant baptism because Infant baptism is equivalent to giving to God what belongs to God.

We should be baptizing as many people as we possibly can and just let God sort out the rest.

1 Samuel 15:13-14,19-20,22 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, “The Lord bless you! I have carried out the Lord's instructions.” [14] But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?” [19] Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?” [20] “But I did obey the Lord,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. [22] But Samuel replied: “Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Actually, it's better to follow what God says about baptism, and not just do our own thing, like Saul did.

 

[Cooky]

1 Samuel 15:13-14,19-20,22 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, “The Lord bless you! I have carried out the Lord's instructions.” [14] But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?” [19] Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?” [20] “But I did obey the Lord,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. [22] But Samuel replied: “Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Actually, it's better to follow what God says about baptism, and not do our own thing, like Saul did.

What is your understanding of what God says in regards to baptism?

 

[e.r.m.]

What is your understanding of what God says in regards to baptism?

From the Biblical standpoint,
The purpose of baptism in water in Jesus's name, which began after His resurrection, is

-Acts 2:38 ...and be baptized for the remission (forgiveness) of your sins...

-Acts 22:16 ...arise, and be baptized and wash away thy sins, ...

Self explanatory.

-Romans 6:2,5-7 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.

We die, our old man is crucified, we are freed from sin.

-Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

We are clothed with Christ.

-1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We are saved, making an appeal to God for a good conscious. These two are in unison, not opposing each other.

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Among others


I read what you said about protestants taking the Bible too far, to the hills, and such.
Although I do not identify as protestant, this is the Biblical standpoint, and it is what I subscribe to.

 

[Cooky]

From the Biblical standpoint,
The purpose of baptism in water in Jesus's name, which began after His resurrection, is

-Acts 2:38 ...and be baptized for the remission (forgiveness) of your sins...

-Acts 22:16 ...arise, and be baptized and wash away thy sins, ...

Self explanatory.

-Romans 6:2,5-7 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.

We die, our old man is crucified, we are freed from sin.

-Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

We are clothed with Christ.

-1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We are saved, making an appeal to God for a good conscious. These two are in unison, not opposing each other.

---------------------------------------------------------

Among others


I read what you said about protestants taking the Bible too far, to the hills, and such.
Although I do not identify as protestant, this is the Biblical standpoint, and it is what I subscribe to.

That copy and paste doesn't really explain "your understanding" of it though. I really don't want to take part in scriptural back and forths, as the cherry picking of verses out of context is something I can't take part in.

...Acts 2 is not even about baptism. I stopped there.

 

[shmogie]

According to whom?

According to the Bible.

 

[e.r.m.]

Christian baptism is the public declaration of faith and acceptance, and the symbolic representation first of the cleansing of sin, and second the symbolic representation of the baptized one entering death, as Christ did and coming out of the grave, resurrected, as Christ did.

Infant baptism is a total conflict of terms.

Christianity is all about free will, one chooses Christ, one chooses baptism.

Infants can do neither.

There is no mystical magic in baptism, it is a declaration and representation, nothing more.

It's not even that much. There's no verbage in the Word of God itself that ever describes baptism's purpose as either a public declaration of faith, or as a symbolic representation of the cleansing of sin, or as a symbolic representation of the baptized one entering death, and coming out of the grave. All such terminology of declaration and representation, is commentator driven nothing more. All those times when people say "It's not exactly written that way", or "It doesn't use those exact words, but..." is proof that the Bible doesn't say those things, and that it's the commentators who are saying this "on behalf of" the Bible. THE BIBLE does not speak of a public declaration purpose for baptism. THE BIBLE does not speak of a "symbolizing" purpose for baptism.

I agree with you about infant baptism though.